Zippity wrote:Well my opinion is to get the damage here as live had it, and ONLY THEN start making custom tweaks if tweaks are necessary/desirable. .

Absolutely agreed.

What concerns your subsequent proposals, i think, they are pretty good and reasonable deliberations, pointing into the right direction.

Rapifire doing normal dmg would be drastic though, as it is a 100% dmg-increase; combined with your proposal to up bowdmg generally, it would be even more.

If critshot lost all it's requirements, with the only exception of stealth, it won't be able to fire crit after crit and it would be like on live-servers in the current version after turning the archer into a weird spellcaster.
I'd have to see the complete picture to have an opinion on that.
When it is the only thing, that is being done, i'd say clearly "no" to it. Then better keep the version of critshot, that we used to have, before the toggle-button-thing got introduced here for us.

yikes.

Some of these suggestions are agenst live, and now its on purpose lol. A rapid fire doing normal shot damage, would replace normal shot all the time if done. As much as id love to do such damage, i know that would be way OP. And critshot acting like current live would take away the classic part away from the archers. On live, critshot goes threw BTs. So a grped archer with another archer could easly double critshot someone. Most of these suggestions are not classic, and yes would make it easyer for the amatur archer, but any hardcore archer knows how to get a critshot off, and the proper use of rapid fire. And im not going to go on about the bow dmg and 2h thing. Here is what i think needs to be done.

1. Raise bow damage 20-30% (DO not alter WS, not live like)

2. Fix critshot toggle back to how it was before, there wasnt anything wrong with it before.

3. Reduce the charge a target has to evade/parry/block an arrow, but only by a small amount, like 10-15%. Remember its an arrow, not a weapon they are reacting too.

4. Like zippity said, look into the randomness in misses. Sometimes no misses, then you get like 3-4 in a row, its nuts.

5. Bow Procs ( lesser importences, but will add more utility to the bow )

6. Improve the Alchemy Stat Pots to higher values, which is a good thing for anyone. One it helps out scouts, to be able to get a higher base dex buff from a pot, then just a 20 value one with the current pots. They will never be as good as a charge, but if you could craft a higher value one, it will make running out with out a buff class, more desirable. And getting spec str/con, dex/qui charged items, is more difficult between the realms. Just look at the AHs lol.

Eclipsed wrote:6. Improve the Alchemy Stat Pots to higher values, which is a good thing for anyone. One it helps out scouts, to be able to get a higher base dex buff from a pot, then just a 20 value one with the current pots. They will never be as good as a charge, but if you could craft a higher value one, it will make running out with out a buff class, more desirable. And getting spec str/con, dex/qui charged items, is more difficult between the realms. Just look at the AHs lol.

This is not good for everyone. It is good for people who have easy access to an LGM Alchemist and are willing to farm mobs for hours to pay for the pots. It completely undermines classes with self-buff spec lines and favors simple, high dps classes that normally would be unable to self-buff.

I am very happy, that this thread has been so constructive so far

Concerning archery i personally think, that we have worked out very nicely, how it could be reasonably fixed and improved to get out there in RVR again more real archers.

Viper3 not effectively purgeable (due to the lack of an immunity-timer+reapplyable poisons) remains a serious issue, not only for archer classes, but for the solo-/small scale RVR in general.

But if we concentrate on archery as a topic, we basically all agree in here -those with arguments - that more or less 3-4 points being adressed, would change the situation much for the better.


All other ppl, that don't play an archer or plan on doing so, should not look so much in envy upon changes being made not to their class and worry, that the archer classes could get too strong, so better keep it in this miserable state, but consider the chances:
More archers out there will mean for almost any other class, if the circumstances are right, also more easy RPs for themselves .

Maybe make trueshot RA work with critshot also instead of just making all critshots penetrate caster self blade turn. That way archers who spend the 5 points on that RA can critshot through caster blade turns (or use trueshot to penetrate with normal shot also like presently). This would at least make a nice opener for archers who could then follow up with a rapid fire or volley sequence.


I still think rapid fire damage should be upped. Maybe raise endurance cost of the shots more but keep normal shot damage. An alternative is to reduce teh damage penalty again. Maybe make the penalty 75% of damage instead of 50%.

Wow the last page or so have been excellent and realistic suggestions.

The thing that keeps continually jumping out at me is the damage I am doing to cloth wearers. I'm 44+13 bow level 49 in Thid all stats capped, using dex pot, +65 from self dex buff and I'm hitting an enchanter for 200? Were not talking some uber RR8 guy and this is not untypical damage. I played hunter on live and we took down casters in 3 or 4 shots if we landed our crit shot, here I find myself taking 6 or 7 arrows to kill a caster that = a dead hunter in all cases. Now granted I'm not level 50 I'll be capping out of Thid soon but I doubt me adding another 2 points to bow and a few extra stat points is going to make huge difference to my damage output VS. typical Agra enemies.

There seems to be something wrong where our damage does not seem to be scaling correctly VS. the different armor types.

I do not expect to be uber I just want to know clearly who my targets should be and as long as I get the initiative and use good tactics I should win most of the time against those classes.

On live hybrids, casters and other stealthers were my main targets and if I got the Jump on them I fully expected to win and I did most times, unless just some bad rounds of evades or all my Ra's were down etc.

Keep up the great suggestion hopefully the Devs here will take some note and look at archery and make it viable to play on this server.

swift, your main problem as a mid is that 5.0 speed bow. Your only option on this server is to get that basalt bow of bedlam (5.7 speed). Although i agree on the issue of there being a lack of a viable primary target for archers. Casters were to be it at one time but then they got buffed up (by mythic) with self af/abs buffs for survivability and then later on with new frontiers and toa gained acces to brittle guards, and of course..physical defense. That's in addition to pets and MOC, quick cast, concentration RAs that give them a 1 up on any attacknig archer if they are sufficient realm rank. If anything, a damage boost toa rchery (30% at least) would nullify the phys def bonus and would give some semi reasonable damage to casters through normal/crit shots.

Although in my opinion a full 50% increase would help across all targets. Making trueshot have teh ability to penetrate blade turn with a crit shot (and also changing crit shot so that it can be opened up on any target so long as the archer remains stealthed) would make taking on targets (and casters in particular) viable. At this moment i dont even touch pet casters or anyone that can MOC lifetap for the previous reasons mentioned. You just cant kill them in time before they burn those RAs on you and smoke you down to a crisp. In my opinion archers should be the antithesis for casters. While casters should keep their phys def etc abilities against melee attackers,, I think against archers, they should have the role as prey unless someone wants to reverse the role here and make melee characters prey of ranged attackers so long as the melee attacker isnt in range, but to do that, there would need to be some massive damage/ability increases which i think would be bad all around for the server if archers started being able to kill tanks in 2-3 shots etc.

An option could be to make it so that physical defense only applies to melee attacks and not to bolts/arrows or that arrows/bolts bypass melee and physical defense all together on casters.

Another thing toconsider here is the lack of toa bonuses for archery damage (and general in damage). The new frontiers system with physical defense is factored into there being bonus damages. On uthg, there is of course, no legitimate item available with bonus to damage so therefore we are right off the start, 10% less effecive than our live counter parts would be with the same speed/dps bows.

zippity...basalt bow im mid is 5.3 speed...just for info.

by the way..is it correkt that PD working against arrows?
since the explanation of PD is talking about MELEE attaks...and arrows are no melee attack..they just deal melee damage but are not melee attacks.

so if the discribtion of PD is right arrows/bolts should not be affekted by PD.

Musikus wrote:zippity...basalt bow im mid is 5.3 speed...just for info.

by the way..is it correkt that PD working against arrows?
since the explanation of PD is talking about MELEE attaks...and arrows are no melee attack..they just deal melee damage but are not melee attacks.

so if the discribtion of PD is right arrows/bolts should not be affekted by PD.

Pretty sure its arrow and melee damage, although if someone wants to come to the test center on live, i can fill them with some bolts from my armsman =P

I think the simple increase in damage of 20-30% would make it easyer, we do not need all these other , none classic archery changes. Someone with Trueshot 3, would be able to critshot though BT all the time then, that would be OP. You need to understand how to use your ablities. Yes Trueshot will hit a caster and pop there BT. So use it for your first shot, then ready a critshot after. Most of the time, they will stop after being hit on the first shot. The only real problems i run into is Physical Defense 4-5 casters. Cant hit them for much of anything, but that is because of the damage. They should be harder, but not impossible. As long as PD is working as Tier 2, then that should be fine. I think just the simple increase in damage by 20-30% and the critshot toggle fix, should make things more currect.

20% increase would be near exactly the damage values on live for an archer with 10% archery damage bonus from toa. Anything over that would be a custom change.

Eclipsed wrote:yikes.

Some of these suggestions are agenst live, and now its on purpose lol. A rapid fire doing normal shot damage, would replace normal shot all the time if done. As much as id love to do such damage, i know that would be way OP. And critshot acting like current live would take away the classic part away from the archers. On live, critshot goes threw BTs. So a grped archer with another archer could easly double critshot someone. Most of these suggestions are not classic, and yes would make it easyer for the amatur archer, but any hardcore archer knows how to get a critshot off, and the proper use of rapid fire. And im not going to go on about the bow dmg and 2h thing. Here is what i think needs to be done.

1. Raise bow damage 20-30% (DO not alter WS, not live like)

2. Fix critshot toggle back to how it was before, there wasnt anything wrong with it before.

3. Reduce the charge a target has to evade/parry/block an arrow, but only by a small amount, like 10-15%. Remember its an arrow, not a weapon they are reacting too.

4. Like zippity said, look into the randomness in misses. Sometimes no misses, then you get like 3-4 in a row, its nuts.

5. Bow Procs ( lesser importences, but will add more utility to the bow )

6. Improve the Alchemy Stat Pots to higher values, which is a good thing for anyone. One it helps out scouts, to be able to get a higher base dex buff from a pot, then just a 20 value one with the current pots. They will never be as good as a charge, but if you could craft a higher value one, it will make running out with out a buff class, more desirable. And getting spec str/con, dex/qui charged items, is more difficult between the realms. Just look at the AHs lol.

I support the above proposal 100% as it addresses the true issues and does not require integrating post 1.80 mechanics. The only things i might add to this list would be the removal of volley arrows seeking and hitting dead targets and possibly consider making volley penetrate and pop bladeturn as i believe was added around 1.62 or thereabouts.


I have seen many suggestions here that are way in left field and DO NOT actually address the issue but would add even more. We know the issues, or some of us do, and we know what needs to be fixed. Im not trying to come off as eliteist here or anything but one must put in the time -IN COMBAT- to really understand the Archer and all of his utilities. And when i say put in the time i mean a long time not just a few weeks or months. For example Eclipsed understands this as you can see by his post where he points out someones suggestions that would actually make Archer way too overpowered. Then notice as he follows with more which addresses the actual issues without further complicating the situation and still retaining 'classic' integrity of the Archer and the server.

(on a side note i want to point out that the critshot toggle issue also branches to the rapid fire toggle as well. Rapid is actually aborting critshot and this is completely incorrect and will need the same attention)

Zippity wrote:20% increase would be near exactly the damage values on live for an archer with 10% archery damage bonus from toa. Anything over that would be a custom change.

Then why you suggest 50% increase if you got a problem with it? See this is the type of thing i am mentioning in my previous post. You always contradicting yourself man. Why you doing that? Why you making suggestions that are so far fetched and some actually defy classic rules. Why you say things like - "Theres nothing wrong with crit toggle or rapid toggle and you need to prove that there is." (not exact quote but this captures the coversation).

For someone to say this to me (this was in regards to the undocumented changes to both cirtshot and rapid fire toggles) means they do not understand the entire range of shot sequences of an Archer nor how the each shot actually works.(inner mechanics and i dont mean formulas) As they never did enough actual shooting to be familiar with how this stuff has worked for all these years. That is not a cut down in any way just saying, like before... one must putin the time to fully understand.

Well since Agra was totally dead last night I wen t on a DF raid and the Prince dropped the Basalt Bow. It is indeed 5.3 speed and 100qual which is cool. I'll have to do some more testing tonight to see if I get much more damage from it vs my crafted bow.

It shows it as having DD proc 95 fire damage. I used bow for a while it did not seems to proc and I know crafter made bow proc do not work, Does the proc work on this bow ? If not that for sure should be changed in sense of fairness.

swiftfist wrote:It is indeed 5.3 speed...

Really... interesting, as unless i am mistaken this bow is to be 5.7 speed for Hibernia. Why is this bow speed set incorrectly?


Edit: Well i can only find this bow listed with todays live stats and it has it at 5.4 for Hib.