Eclipsed, you are leading this thread around in circles. Please stop beating your head against the wall at our expense.

Zippity,

Thanks again for all the work you've done. I get the impression that even a 20% damage buff won't help archers in high level RvR. High level RvR on Uthgard seems to favor survivability above all else. The number of pots, charges, procs, and RAs that even the squishiest caster has ready access to is mind boggling. I don't remember anything like this pre-ToA, let alone pre-SI Classic.

The amount of class-specific abilities and buffs that can be replicated just as well (if not better) by a Merc or Savage or Eldritch with pots/charges is so broken you'd have to own a LGM Alchemist not to see the truth. I don't see how we as archers can compete in this end-game environment because the problem is systemic and not localized to our class. It's just that we get hit the hardest because of the mechanics of our class and how easy it is to cripple our damage output.

Seyha wrote:Eclipsed, you are leading this thread around in circles. Please stop beating your head against the wall at our expense.

Zippity,

Thanks again for all the work you've done. I get the impression that even a 20% damage buff won't help archers in high level RvR. High level RvR on Uthgard seems to favor survivability above all else. The number of pots, charges, procs, and RAs that even the squishiest caster has ready access to is mind boggling. I don't remember anything like this pre-ToA, let alone pre-SI Classic.

The amount of class-specific abilities and buffs that can be replicated just as well (if not better) by a Merc or Savage or Eldritch with pots/charges is so broken you'd have to own a LGM Alchemist not to see the truth. I don't see how we as archers can compete in this end-game environment because the problem is systemic and not localized to our class. It's just that we get hit the hardest because of the mechanics of our class and how easy it is to cripple our damage output.

that makes sense its also sad

Very Well put Seyha,
Something is very odd on this server I understand hitting plate or scale classes for 200 damage that would happen on live, those were not our targets. I can't remember on live ever crit shotting a cloth wearing caster for less than 550 to 600 sometimes even up to 900. Damage was not much lower vs assassins if I managed to get a crit shot off on a assassin and 1 or 2 more arrows, I always won that fight.

here it seems I don't hit casters or leather wearers for much more than the plate wearers.

As an added note for hunter they gave us Evade 3 in patch 1.78 also a pet sprint skill. At the very least we should get evade 3 I understand the pet sprint spell might be a bit more to code.

Heres the link to those patch notes.
http://support.darkageofcamelot.com/kb/article.php?id=796

Thanks Swift. Check your character info. I'm showing Evade 3. Not sure if my pet sprints, tho.

Hate to dig up a possibly dead argument, but I stumbled across this page and am planning on playing around with you guys.

I played a RR8Lx ranger on live in an all stealth guild, and we quit about a week after ToA came out because we didn't want to do the artifact grinds. Not to mention we were pretty much against large scale raids, we 5 manned galladoria on regular basis to get our fangs etc.


Our basic mode of operations was to find and engage enemy stealthers, as on our server there was a huge, unorganized infiltrator zerg, and no counter for it. Most of us got fed up with this and put together a nightshade/ranger guild and it was amazing fun.

I was wondering, I have some videos that my buddy made or some rvr fights we had, showing his stats and damage etc against infils and scouts. Would this help at all with judging whether or not archery is lower than needed? These videos were literally taken no more than a month after ToA came out, and he is using a masterpiece Duskwood Recurve bow. He was one of the top rangers on our server (under me of course ) so he always was using the correct arrows for highest damage type also.

Ciraich wrote:Hate to dig up a possibly dead argument, but I stumbled across this page and am planning on playing around with you guys.

I played a RR8Lx ranger on live in an all stealth guild, and we quit about a week after ToA came out because we didn't want to do the artifact grinds. Not to mention we were pretty much against large scale raids, we 5 manned galladoria on regular basis to get our fangs etc.


Our basic mode of operations was to find and engage enemy stealthers, as on our server there was a huge, unorganized infiltrator zerg, and no counter for it. Most of us got fed up with this and put together a nightshade/ranger guild and it was amazing fun.

I was wondering, I have some videos that my buddy made or some rvr fights we had, showing his stats and damage etc against infils and scouts. Would this help at all with judging whether or not archery is lower than needed? These videos were literally taken no more than a month after ToA came out, and he is using a masterpiece Duskwood Recurve bow. He was one of the top rangers on our server (under me of course ) so he always was using the correct arrows for highest damage type also.

Yup, find and post all the screenshots and chatlogs that you can get of doing bow damage to a target. Make sure you also list what type of target it was against and what weaponskill, dex stat and bow spec you were using at the time the screenshots/chatlogs were taken. That could potentially help a lot if you have this information.

Roger that, right now I'm visiting a friend, just browsing the forums, but once I get back to my console I'll post some logs. Luckily his UI Mod shows all of his stats I'll give him a call also and see if he can dig up more vids / chat logs. He loves saving all that stuff and looks like it will finally have a use!

Ciraich wrote:Roger that, right now I'm visiting a friend, just browsing the forums, but once I get back to my console I'll post some logs. Luckily his UI Mod shows all of his stats I'll give him a call also and see if he can dig up more vids / chat logs. He loves saving all that stuff and looks like it will finally have a use!

Sounds promising. Try to document each file the best that you can especially listing what the target was i.e lvl 50 infiltrator and whether or not the player had any unique features about them (af buffs etc). Also list what weapons you guys were using.

Seyha,

I dont know if you were looking for a round of applause or what with that post but you and everyone who agreed with it and patted you on the back for posting are all missing the big picture. None of this has to do with pots or charges or any of that.

The facts are: Someone altered bow damage, miss rate, and icon function in the last few weeks.

Bow damage was incorrect before but somewhat tolerable - then was further lowered on what basis?

Icons(crit\rapid toggle) functioned exactly like live - then was changed on what basis?


Who is making such changes to any class they want, with no resource, no documentation, and without the rest of the team knowing?

I' m pretty sure bow damage hasnt been altered for normal shots at any rate. I did a test last night with normal shots and did 324-457 damage to a reinforced target. A test i did last year was 324-465 to reinforced target using parallel weaponskill and spec values. I guess i can test crit shots later. I cant say anything about volley or rapid fire though or miss rates except that in this test, i counted 128 misses out of 1040 arrows fired for roughly 12% miss rate. Not that high. Live tests produce around 87% hit rates so i think this is correct or near enough. I suspect volley has a higher miss rate though but that was intentional i believe, based on the source. What is suspect though is the random chance for the miss rates. I notice that they tend to bunch up for archery. For example you can get 3-4 misses in a row.

Silverleaf wrote:Seyha,

I dont know if you were looking for a round of applause or what with that post but you and everyone who agreed with it and patted you on the back for posting are all missing the big picture. None of this has to do with pots or charges or any of that.

The facts are: Someone altered bow damage, miss rate, and icon function in the last few weeks.

Bow damage was incorrect before but somewhat tolerable - then was further lowered on what basis?

Icons(crit\rapid toggle) functioned exactly like live - then was changed on what basis?


Who is making such changes to any class they want, with no resource, no documentation, and without the rest of the team knowing?

I wasn't looking for a pat on the back. I was pointing out that even a significant damage buff on the order of 20% isn't going to solve our class's problems. Tonight in Thidranki I did 180 (-70) on normal shots against a Luri chanter. Of course even if I did twice that it would have made no difference as I was q/c stunned and then DD'd back to the portal keep as my pet and the pet of a fellow hunter failed to interrupt the chanter even once. But that's not my point (actually, it kind of is).

I regularly do damage in the low to mid 200's against unbuffed, un-uber-templated tanks. I do damage in the low to mid 300's against even level Nightshades and Infies who are desperately in need of better gear. Basically my bow damage against anyone even level who isn't running a twinked out toon ranges from respectable to devastating. And I am by no means running a tricked out toon myself (I'm still wearing some emerald seal armor). I believe that bow damage on Uth is pretty close to what it was on Live in 2002-2003.

My point is that the opponents archers are facing in 50 rvr on Uth are nothing like what they faced on Classic in 2003. There is simply no comparison. The gear, the charges, the procs, the pots--on top of the RAs. And of course the excellent reaction time and skill of our veteran players. It's almost a different game.

Here are links to solo videos made in 2004 by the Hunter Lukiel on YS:

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/se ... videogames

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/se ... videogames

The quality is poor, but you can see him averaging around 400 damage (after resists) on normal shots against casters. Devastating when you consider his targets probably weren't templated down to the last hit point. Lukiel's damage against stealthers looks to be in the 300 range and around 250 against tanks (watch the Champ fight). This is only a little higher than what I average against non-templated opponents in Thid!

[edit: Also note how he can spam crit shot. Very useful. ]

Not only that but look at the laughable reaction time of these players. Some of them act like they got to 50 without ever using /face. This is the enviroment Archers operated in and this is what Mythic/GOA balanced their damage and abilities against IN 2004.

So the argument about whether or not Archer damage on Uth is faithful to what it was 5 or 6 years ago is moot. The problem is much more complicated than that.

So yeah, that's why I made that post.

Actually it is pretty simple and we don't need terrabytes of data on bow-dmg like it used to be on live, when so, so much was different at any time(buffbots, old-RA-system, no pots/bigger pots/different charges) than on Uth now.

An Archer needs to drop his opponent within the first 3-4 shots (bt-pop included). If not, he's likely toast, but more important, he will never get RPs without only leeching.


So issues remain imo the same:

1. Restore critshot (if rapidfire got a problem here too, same thing) to the old version that worked correctly.

2. Reduce Miss rates of arrows.

3. If an Archer with a reasonable skill in bow, which is also accompanied by his RA-choice, can't drop targets, that he is supposed to kill(supps/casters), in 3-4 shots on Uth, make changes, that enable the archer to do so.
(Only then more dmg, eventually haste affecting archery, if re-coding dmg-formula would be too much of an effort).

4. Minor issue imo: fix procs on bows
(always consider, that anything to be done has to correlate to the effort for the devs.)


Presenting data about archery via logs on live-servers to mythic in order to change archery, was one of the biggest parodies, that mythic has done to the community.

ONLY if the devs start asking to provide data here, we all should voluntarily get active as a community. But why stealing the devs time to eat through piles of obscure data, when instead they could actually invest the time to see how it is really like to play an archer on Uthgard.

Anytime a dev likes to play my ranger to see for oneself, i invite him or her to do so and give me just a tell. I will happily share my account for that period of time or help in any other way possible.

Fresa.

Well my opinion is to get the damage here as live had it, and ONLY THEN start making custom tweaks if tweaks are necessary/desirable. I would propose a few things:


1. Increase archery weaponskill by 30-50% so that an archer can do 30-50% more damage than they currently do.

2. Make crit shots able to hit any target no matter what they are doing (remove the incombat etc restrictions) so long as the archer uses it from stealth (this is a post 1.88 archery change ).


3. Remove damage penalty on rapid fire. Essentially rapid fire would fire normal shot arrow damage. The endurance cost atm is already sufficient to keep someone from abusing this. Shield users can still put the archer on engage and nullify bow anyway so this is primarily a tool to take down non shield users and weak armored targets (casters as an example) giving the archers more of a range of viable targets to attack.

4. Miss rate atm is fine. I tested 1040 shots and 128 missed for a total of 12% which is what melee hits average on live. The only questionable thing here is the frequency of misses. For example you can have 3-4 misses in a row so the random generation for miss rates on bows seems to be a bit wonky although the total misses are right on average with other attacks.

3. Is a bit much, dont you think?

i dont like QS anyway, but did you calculate how much that would increase the damage?

Zippity wrote:3. Remove damage penalty on rapid fire. Essentially rapid fire would fire normal shot arrow damage. The endurance cost atm is already sufficient to keep someone from abusing this. Shield users can still put the archer on engage and nullify bow anyway so this is primarily a tool to take down non shield users and weak armored targets (casters as an example) giving the archers more of a range of viable targets to attack.

Hate to say that, but i too think that this would be way too op. Not for the solo, not all stuffed out Archer, but if u got yellow/red endu-buff or endurance barrel

Mmhhh..., but hey if u like implement it. My Hunter says thanks to you.

Edit: Hunters only: What about strenghten pets?