Eclipsed wrote:You want bow damage raised 10%, which also means you want crossbows and 2h weapons raised 10%, since you believe they are all the same. And i have made a suggestion , back when the GM said he admits there is a problem with the bow damage and asked for some reasonable suggestions and i gave one. Youl have to go back and find that. And sorry about your the only one that suggested a 500% increase in bow damage, being sarcastic im guessing lol.

Just look back at that rapid fire log , back in 2003 vs a fully buffed druid. Just look at his spec, bow effective dps, ligh arrows used, and the resist the druid had, and the possiblity of the druid having spec AF, being fully buffed. We should be able to do, more then 200 damage vs a scale target, using the lowest damage arrows. Why cant you just take that log, fix what needs to be done, like the arrow type, effective dps and so on and compare it to how bow damage is on uthgard. Compare a ranger log with a ranger on uthgard. Not to 2h damage or crossbow. That is pretty much what i suggested them to do. Unless you got a better idea, that doesnt invole anything exept a ranger/hunter or a scout.

Yes i was being sarcastic about the 1000 damage per rapid fire shot part.
I was trying to illustrate how absurd this argument can get when everyone wants their own custom changes to fit their own interests.

In a 2nd attempt to point out useful information from the log i'll quote myself from a post i made earlier in this thread responding to your exact same inquiry for information from a live source...

Eclipse, the damage range observed in phar oz's test using normal arrows is
229-315. If you look at it, 315 is pretty close to being 141% of 229,therefor from this we know that this damage range almost covers the entire min-max spread for his damage output on that particular target using his stats/weapon.

His stats were

58 Spec, 1800ish ws at 350 dex 5.5 spd 16.0 dps

and the target was a scale wearer. He used light damage arrows which have a -15% penalty

If he were using arrows with a 25% bonus it would be 336-465 on that target.



In a comparable test on uth, i used the same bow (99 % quality and 16.0 effective dps) against a scale target (99% quality armor) with 50 + 9 bow spec, 1800 weaponskill at 343 dex using normal arrows (no bonus) and got a range of 235-333. Now pay attention here so that we are absolutely clear on this matter...


If I used the arrows with 25% bonus, then my damage range would be 293-416. Comparing this to pharoz, this implies that the damage difference is roughly 11%, which is off from the 7% value that i derived from another test involving melee weapons. So, my original estimation was inaccurate, but only slightly.

]

And if he was using spec AF? Even if so, i tested that on live to and that is roughly 10% more damage absorption, so at best, bow damage here would be increased by 20%. The arguments here in this thread seem to want the damage increased far more than this so......again i say..make a proposition as to what bow damage should be increased by as compared to its current state.

If you read back i suggested a increase of 30-40%. But after looking at that ranger log, to see where between 30-40% to go with. In your comment, you said its like 11% off, but was that after you recently checked , to see they nerfed bow damage ? And that nerf was done, at the time of the critshot toggle nerf. Dont you remember , both me and silver told you this, but you didnt belive us. Like you didnt believe us about the cost of arrows on volley lol.

Eclipsed wrote:If you read back i suggested a increase of 30-40%. But after looking at that ranger log, to see where between 30-40% to go with. In your comment, you said its like 11% off, but was that after you recently checked , to see they nerfed bow damage ? And that nerf was done, at the time of the critshot toggle nerf. Dont you remember , both me and silver told you this, but you didnt belive us. Like you didnt believe us about the cost of arrows on volley lol.

As far as i can tell the only change that has been done has been to melee. I tested bow damage tonight and there is no noticable difference (so far) than when i tested it earlier last year. I'm hitting a rf using target atm for 457 using thrust arrows.

So according to your theory, if i played a armsman, and spec 40 crossbow, 40 2h, 40 slash, and was able to get my str/dex up high enough , like 300 damage stat. I could fire with a crossbow, with the best bolt for Ranger damage, and use a 2 handed weapon with styles and do better then bow damage. You find that to be possible on classic live ?

Eclipsed wrote:So according to your theory, if i played a armsman, and spec 40 crossbow, 40 2h, 40 slash, and was able to get my str/dex up high enough , like 300 damage stat. I could fire with a crossbow, with the best bolt for Ranger damage, and use a 2 handed weapon with styles and do better then bow damage. You find that to be possible on classic live ?

I'm through trying to be rational with you since you are bent on being irrational. Tell you what, how about you go find yourself some sources if you want to support the idea that bows do more damage. I've done all i can do and if that isnt good enough for ya then i'm sorry, maybe you can and do a better job? If so, be my guest. I'd like better bow damage to and if you can find somethign to that supports us getting better archery damage, then im behind you 100%

Eclipsed wrote:So according to your theory, if i played a armsman, and spec 40 crossbow, 40 2h, 40 slash, and was able to get my str/dex up high enough , like 300 damage stat. I could fire with a crossbow, with the best bolt for Ranger damage, and use a 2 handed weapon with styles and do better then bow damage. You find that to be possible on classic live ?

That is correct .. if the Archer dont use Rapidfire Chritshot etc and if they`re using the same Delay weapons etc..

Live with it or roll another class.

well i can look around, but i dont understand why you cant answer my question i just asked you. Do you think mythic intented an armsman to be able to use a crossbow , as a full archer can, damage wise, not ablities. And be still capable of using a 2h weapon, that is capable of doing more damage then bow damage, just by using a taunt style.

I dont know about you, but i dont want armsmans picking up on this. Or maybe all the archers should stop playing there classes and just make armsmans, and spec enough into crossbow and into melee, and run around with snapshot and 2handed weapons + styles. I bet you anything, people will start complaining about it. I bet on live most armsmans would only spec to maybe 25 crossbow for snapshot, unless they got points to waste into it.

The reason i need to make some sense of your theory, is that we do not need 2 handed weapons/crossbows as strong/or stronger then bow classes bow damage. Or we dont need bow classes bow damage nerfed to 2 handed damage. Maybe crossbows and 2handed weapons need to go up 10% or so, but most archers admit, bow damage needs to go up more then 10%, i suggest 30% min. But ill have to look around more to see if that is enough lol.

Eclipsed wrote:rant

stealth? range?

@Armsman crossbow damage:

(Crossbows, although damaging, cannot stack up to the damage output of an Armsman at melee range, so would advise against training in them. If you want to use a crossbow to pull mobs, then remember that a miss will pull as effectively as a hit.)

http://www.classesofcamelot.com/misc/Cl ... rmsman.asp

Archer have bow abilities that Armsman not have.

Yes that is true, but armsmans also have things archers dont have. They got plate armor, more HP, higher damage table for melee, parry, shield, snapshot at 25 spec, benifits of being the tank class, being able to find a grp, auto training into melee. Now yes they cant stealth, have critshot, use rapid or volley. But with all they do get, they dont need to stealth. And critshot has many requirments, it cant be done in every fight.

Look up info on classic armsmans and what they suggest about specing crossbow and what they think about the damage on live.

http://daoc.catacombs.com/forum.cfm?Thr ... 76&forum=5

Blue,
could you please state something about the critshot-toggle-button change?
Was it intended to nerf critshot, so that it cannot be shot one after another, i.e. in a row?

I have nothing to do with Critshot toggle button change. If its not livelike it will be most likely changed again.

Thanks, that's very good news.

Eclipsed wrote:Yes that is true, but armsmans also have things archers dont have. They got plate armor, more HP, higher damage table for melee, parry, shield, snapshot at 25 spec, benifits of being the tank class, being able to find a grp, auto training into melee. Now yes they cant stealth, have critshot, use rapid or volley. But with all they do get, they dont need to stealth. And critshot has many requirments, it cant be done in every fight.

Look up info on classic armsmans and what they suggest about specing crossbow and what they think about the damage on live.

http://daoc.catacombs.com/forum.cfm?Thr ... 76&forum=5

Armsman X-Bow = Ranger bow ^^ live with it, it was intended like this by Mythic

Eclipsed wrote:well i can look around, but i dont understand why you cant answer my question i just asked you. Do you think mythic intented an armsman to be able to use a crossbow , as a full archer can, damage wise, not ablities. And be still capable of using a 2h weapon, that is capable of doing more damage then bow damage, just by using a taunt style.

armsman will never hit archer's dex scores, ranger/hunter self buffs aside.
also, though I do not have a proof of this, I am quite certain that archer classes, when using their ranged weapons, are on separate weaponskill tables then other classes using ranged weapons. yes, a level 50 scout specced 50 in longbow and with 300 dex will have higher WS than an armsman with the same dex and crossbow skills.

I too think archers need a boost on Uthgard, but I'm prone to believe in what Zipp said. I don't see why the formula for bow damage wouldn't be the same as for 2h weapons.

What damage per (normal) shot would you consider as "normal"? 200? 250? 300? 400?
Why would such damage not be possible with tank classes speccing fully in their 2h weapon of choice and packing 300+ strength? Don't forget the styles.
You must factor in weaponskill values for individual classes. A thane or paladin with their naturaly low weaponskill will of course never hit for as much as a warrior will, who has the highest weaponskill in the game.

in conclusion (and in my oppinion), a 10% damage boost seems reasonable. there are other issues beside damage output itself that make archers less desirable.