Ya, this 7% increase isnt going to save your butt, when your a full or balanced archer. Sorry but when my enemy gets to me, hes got way more then 50% sometimes. This 7% increase, is not based on archery, its because zip claims that 2h damage is 7% off, which it maybe, but that is the only reason they would be raising it. By what i see it, i believe its off by 30-40%. If you read my post above about the arrow types used in zipps test, i dont think he consided that. The ranger test he was comparing too was using lowest damage arrow ( -15% ) damage. And he used ( +15% ) damage arrows. We maybe have 2handed damage table or crossbow damage like the armsman, but that is if we use the weakest arrow type. Expet on uthgard we do the same damage with the best arrows because of this mistake, which is why i believe the damage for archer classes is off by like 30-40%.

Now for some that sounds like alot of damage extra, but is it.

Yesterday i was suprised to be hitting a rank 5 SB for about 300 normal shots. But still it had taken 5-6 shots to kill him. More like 5 shots though, but that is at 3.4 speed remember, using a 5.5 99% qual bow, with 40+15 bow and 315 dex , with a base dex bot. Now if we got this 30-40% increase in damage that would make it about 420 damage, if its increase the full 40%, which like i said 30-40%. Now that sounds like alot of damage, but got to remember, im using slash arrows on this SB. So his max resist would only be 16% or so. Now if im on the ground in stealth and catch him unstealth lets say. I could do like 840 damage in 6.8 sec, if i dont miss. All hes got to do is run up to me within 6.8 sec, and there is other ways to intrup me on the way. Now id do 1260 in 10.2 sec. If an enemy isnt at me by then, thats quite bad lol. Now i admit, 40% maybe a little high lol. But got to remember a SB only has 10% abs, and just a little higher then cloth AF.

400-420 sounds like alot of damage, from 300 now, but your getting hit by a fricken arrow, from a class with 315 to his damage stat, on a ranged 2 handed weapon. How much do you have to your damage stat ? with what buffs. how much damage does your lifebane do ? To many people complain about the bow damage , because they get killed at towers and keep sieges. Well that is one place where a ranger excels at. That is what he is best at, and you should stay out of view or die. The reason you dont see that many bow rangers on the ground, is because the damage is too low and stand a change before the target gets to you. And if your enemy isnt coming to you on the ground. Maybe your grouped and hes on the other target, well thats too bad, you should stop that arrow from shooting arrows into your fricken head lol. Yes i did 5 shots on that SB yesterday, but I was only able to pull that off with volley and he decided to run through the GT, then comicly run back into it to run away. That was his mistake. Lucky for me i didnt miss any arrows on that volley and was able to finish him off , after. Yes volley is strong, but you should stand still when its used on you. But for archers right now, we have to use that as are only way to do what bow dmg should do on a single target lol. we have to fire 4-6 arrows with volley. We shouldnt have to use volley to get solos. Most dont even know how to use it like I and Zip does, so that is also why there isnt many archers with bow spec. I know zip likes to use volley on the ground, because he knows firing normal shots or crit on the ground solo, isnt going to work that great.

monty wrote:simpy said, bow damage is wrong, i have a scout and i stopprd playing her cause she's just not worth playing atm, i was wayting for a bow damage fix, but if i read all these posts, seems someone told devs scouts should do same damage with their only weapon, as do arms with their crossbow... hmmm..; arms having plate, alot more hp, alot more mele damage... oh well... seems very logical...
no need to flame eachother, scouts are useless, only thing you can do is leach and hope they will leave you alone, i dunno abouth hob or mid bow classes, i don't xrealm, but it seems they are in the same boat..
it's just not realistic to give a class that has to rely on bow the same damage table as an arms that doest'n even need his xbow to be able to kill someone..
where is the logic in this aniway?

lol i totaly agree. Why dont you make a armsman and just spec bow then, youl not have things like critshot, but you get to have good melee and plate and lots of health and many other things. GJ with the formula Uthgard lol.

Eclipsed wrote:
lol i totaly agree. Why dont you make a armsman and just spec bow then, youl not have things like critshot, but you get to have good melee and plate and lots of health and many other things. GJ with the formula Uthgard lol.

ur welcome to write a better one urself

I only said that because you guys seem convinced that Archer classes are on the same archery table as crossbows and 2h weapon table. You have to actualy play one of the archer classes, with high bow spec to see the problems on uthgard. And go out and solo or try and solo. All i see that needs to be done is, seprate the crossbow and archer class bows and raise the archer bows by 30-40%. Thats it. And yes youl get complaining assasins, because they get killed by melee rangers, but how does that effect that. They kill them in full melee not bow. Maybe they will see more bow spec rangers and will be able to take them on. THey just got to use there head and use dd charges to intrupt them, so they can run up to them. Then they will have to melee you , and there melee will be lower and there RAs will be more balanced, then full melee.

Sorry about the comment, i do respec the work you guys do in coding, and im not expert in that. But i just want you guys to get away from the idea that bow dmg for real archers is the same as an armsman crossbow.

http://web.archive.org/web/200307262029 ... c=51295145

If you look at this test from live , that zip got data from. Hes testing vs a lvl 50 druid with scale armor on. Only 350 dex, which is a little higher then what we can get. And hes doing like 200 - 280 using thrust arrows, which has no bonus. And on top of that, hes firing at 3s speed. I do that kinda dmg on uthgard vs casters and assasins/leather. And i got a bow that fires at 3.4 speed. Also in that test he says hes using the weakest arrows -15% damage. I use the best arrows which is +25%. So doesnt that tell you something. You can not tell me the little extra dex is making that great of a diff. Varience maybe, but not min/max damage.

I played my ranger more today. Trueshot was pathetic. Its gimped.


Testing on live makes no sense here since the Archer class was totally changed. In Classic "true classic with emain" Archers dropped anyone up to plate/chain classes in 3 shots. Then there was the almighty Archer nerf.

The problem is we lie between that space and the addition of Toa Archer skills. The staff can look at stats. The only reason to play a archer is to spec melee. How screwed up is that statement. Either the archers have found a sweet temp that gives them the same melee ablilty as light tanks or Archery is so screwed up that they had no choice.

Lets not candy coat this anymore. Bow damage is screwed up and Melee tables are also misaligned. Heros should kill light tanks and light tanks should beat ranger melee. Instead Slam bots rule the day and Archers melee based can take light tanks. Assassins are actually on target with all the other melee tables but viper tips the tables. The next nerf will be when assassins go full melee and start or have been taking out full tanks.

When SM pets take 3/4 of attacks from full melee and assassins are taking rr10 tanks then I see a small issue that has been ignored. Balance has not been acheived. This is a custom server, please line up all the Devs up with all classes and lets do some duels. Because something is amiss.

I know every week this is a snowball effect with problems and I am forever gratefull for the work involved but this is long over do. We no longer need addons like Tajendi but lets get the base system working in stream. This may ****** some people off but I have been here long enough to see it all and I am trying to just be constructive. I do not play live so I do not have hard facts but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure when a implementation or creation is just wrong.

Hats off to Fresa for starting a great topic with great replies. Devs take it and run.

@vangonaj: critshot is double dmg of normal shots.

Fresa wrote:@vangonaj: critshot is double dmg of normal shots.

yep, and with a cast time of 20% longer then normal. Also it requires your target to be out of combat and has no BT on, and not runing.

I hate to come in with more complaining, because I love this server and the work the staff put into it (for free). Uthgard is fantastic and we're lucky to have it.

I'm curious to know why the admins can't simply implement changes to bow damage in small increments until balance is achieved. I mean changes of 5-10% at a time, watch the results for a week or two, and then decide whether or not to implement another 5-10% buff and so on until we achieve balance. Balance as in archers can kill their intended targets (casters and light support) with a reasonable amount of effectiveness if the situation is favorable

I also thought zippy's idea for having arrows ignore PD was a brilliant and elegant way of tackling our damage problem while giving archers more of a niche in RvR. I'm not saying we should receive both, but why hasn't this been discussed more?

Denasti wrote:Heros should kill light tanks and light tanks should beat ranger melee. Instead Slam bots rule the day and Archers melee based can take light tanks. Assassins are actually on target with all the other melee tables but viper tips the tables. The next nerf will be when assassins go full melee and start or have been taking out full tanks.

This is a custom server, please line up all the Devs up with all classes and lets do some duels. Because something is amiss.

Heroes should play grp, light tanks should play grp too. Slam bots should play grp too.

All the classes should not "line up" and do some duels, because all classes should play group. Stealther classes have nothing to do with grp classes, any grouped hero/champ/merc/whatever is better than a groupped stealther. Being able to kill group chars that solo is not wrong. Being killed in 3 hits like you said by bow sounds wrong to me when my PA does 300 dmg on PD5 archers.

Eclipsed wrote:Yes i did 5 shots on that SB yesterday, but I was only able to pull that off with volley and he decided to run through the GT, then comicly run back into it to run away. That was his mistake. Lucky for me i didnt miss any arrows on that volley and was able to finish him off , after. Yes volley is strong, but you should stand still when its used on you. But for archers right now, we have to use that as are only way to do what bow dmg should do on a single target lol. we have to fire 4-6 arrows with volley. We shouldnt have to use volley to get solos. Most dont even know how to use it like I and Zip does, so that is also why there isnt many archers with bow spec. I know zip likes to use volley on the ground, because he knows firing normal shots or crit on the ground solo, isnt going to work that great.

Well after reading this I'm not sure if a bow damage buff is appropriate. Yes volley can be difficult to pull off effectively, but let's not lie to ourselves, Eclipsed. A 30% damage buff would mean that you'd smoke that SB in 4 seconds with volley. If you decided to Crit shot him instead you'd only need to pump two arrows into him to drop him.

And did you crit on any of those shots? It'd be pure mayhem if you did.

It isn't that hard to track a target moving at normal speed with a GT. I've done it numerous times in Wilton and it's actually kind of fun. Just hit the target with your first few arrows, and then lead him with the last two. The radius on Volley is large enough to make precision unnecessary.

Just imo.

Eclipse, the damage range observed in phar oz's test using normal arrows is
229-315. If you look at it, 315 is pretty close to being 141% of 229,therefor from this we know that this damage range almost covers the entire min-max spread for his damage output on that particular target using his stats/weapon.

His stats were

58 Spec, 1800ish ws at 350 dex 5.5 spd 16.0 dps

and the target was a scale wearer. He used light damage arrows which have a -15% penalty

If he were using arrows with a 25% bonus it would be 336-465 on that target.



In a comparable test on uth, i used the same bow (99 % quality and 16.0 effective dps) against a scale target (99% quality armor) with 50 + 9 bow spec, 1800 weaponskill at 343 dex using normal arrows (no bonus) and got a range of 235-333. Now pay attention here so that we are absolutely clear on this matter...


If I used the arrows with 25% bonus, then my damage range would be 293-416. Comparing this to pharoz, this implies that the damage difference is roughly 11%, which is off from the 7% value that i derived from another test involving melee weapons. So, my original estimation was inaccurate, but only slightly.

I really dont think people will be satisfied with bow damage unless it is massively increased. This however would be a clear departure from live, but with custom changes already existing on teh server, one has valid arguments to be in favor of such changes to bow damage.

my ranger in live has 50+14 bow ^^

USEING THE RIGHT ARROWS.
I could hit Any mid with my crit shot for
850-1000 damage ( I scored a 1105 damage once on a Chain using healer... i can still remember to this day becuase that healer was my good budy Named Icekill and he was upset that i droped his healer in 3 hits ^^ and Yes his armour resitss where MAXED but with out using a AF charge. )

My normal shot would hit for 350-400

Cant remember the rapid fire.

For Albs

was about 800-900 Damage

Normal shot was 325-375

Did you count in the test, that he had +10 to archery speed ?

5.5 speed
250 qui
10% bow speed

3 sec draw time, as you can see in his test.

Salidor wrote:my ranger in live has 50+14 bow ^^

USEING THE RIGHT ARROWS.
I could hit Any mid with my crit shot for
850-1000 damage ( I scored a 1105 damage once on a Chain using healer... i can still remember to this day becuase that healer was my good budy Named Icekill and he was upset that i droped his healer in 3 hits ^^ and Yes his armour resitss where MAXED but with out using a AF charge. )

My normal shot would hit for 350-400

Cant remember the rapid fire.

For Albs

was about 800-900 Damage

Normal shot was 325-375

I think you need to show some evidence of this =P

If yuo look above, there is no way that was possible on live with those types of weapons.

Eclipsed wrote:Did you count in the test, that he had +10 to archery speed ?

5.5 speed
250 qui
10% bow speed

3 sec draw time, as you can see in his test.

Bow Damage was unaffected by draw haste time from the moa ra, but also keep in mind that mythic cut off tenths of seconds from displaying in chat log.