Umgssda wrote:Keep defense should be an individual aspect of the game. Saying it should be reduced to fighting it out in the open field isn't the right way.

If you cannot take a keep defended by a much superior force directly then there is something right about Siege Warfare. However if it turns out, the defenders have to go out, then again there is something wrong.

/Signed

Aww, did I hurt your e-pride Nixian? I have no idea how many stealthers were there for the initial part while we were on rams, but there were at least 5 other visibles with you at that point, whether you wish to admit it or not. The full group came later, and other stragglers also flowed in. Your stealth brigade didn't stop us at all, it wasn't until the full group you mentioned rolled in did we have to back off the rams. There were at least 20 Hibs to our 8 for the latter half of the ordeal. I'm sorry you still couldn't get us with your superior numbers, but no reason to bust oh the "lol rofl noob" defense.

"Keep defense should be an individual aspect of the game. Saying it should be reduced to fighting it out in the open field isn't the right way."

I agree with you entirely. We tried with rams, we got overwhelmed, and we fell back. This issue is, Zippity is whining about how they had to deal with trebs for '4 hours' of nonsense. The reason they had to endure this is because the Hibs chose to remain in the keeps despite their superior numbers while we slowly and ineffectively tried to whittle away at the doors. Like I said, we made little to no ground trebbing. It was hardly broken. The 'siege' was over. We just continued to pester them at a distance because they refused to come out. To be honest, we don't give a damn about the relics or keeps, we just want people to come out and fight, and that seems to be the only way to generate action late night.

"If you cannot take a keep defended by a much superior force directly then there is something right about Siege Warfare."

Correct.

"However if it turns out, the defenders have to go out, then again there is something wrong."

Incorrect. Part of keep defense is that final push. You defend the keep, then you push out in the open field to finish off the enemy forces that you forced away from the keep. The problem last night was the Hibs spent far too long, for whatever reason, between pushing us away from the keep and coming out to finish us off, a time we spent trebbing walls/doors to keep them from repairing in case other Mids wanted to help join the raid.

agree we went from 5 stealthers + druid to larger numbers but you were on trebs even before that dude

you guys took tower

once you did.. you bought treb at top

started moving ram to keep

and skald ran to pick up 2nd/3rd treb

then you got ram almost to gate and decided it wasnt gonna do it for ya and you went off with 2x trebs and then we smashed ur tower

Its not a whine per se, but a very frustrated response to an admittedly lame situation. As indicated in my original post in this thread, defenders are supposed to be able to use the keep for an advantage against a superior force. A superior force in this case is the aforementioned "stealthers" vs a twinked up so called "perfect" set up group (2 healers, shamans etc) using teamspeak etc. No person in their right mind would come out in open field combat vs odds like that. This is the whole point of a keep with providing defenders an advantage in situations like that. The advantage of this "twinked" group is in open field combat. The defender's advantage is in keep defense. That's the way it should be. The open field group attacking the keep defense force should be heavily disadvantaged. Trebuchets in these circumstances entirely remove this element of defensive bonus gained, thus making the defense virtually pointless. A similar situation existed before, except in that case it was the inability to enter a keep while in combat, making attempted keep defenses equally as futile.


On a different note, if you're really looking for a good fight and demonstrating so called "skill" on this server, then I would recommend raiding relic or rvring during the prime european hours instead of the normal 4-6 a.m time block and against mostly low level and random opponents. Pick up gruops and low level players with half a brain between them arent going to fight solid built groups on their terms (open field and apprently running away through the river kiting) fights. Hibs did the right thing to do exactly what they did last night (and any other night) when faced against this situation.

"A superior force in this case is the aforementioned "stealthers" vs a twinked up so called "perfect" set up group (2 healers, shamans etc) using teamspeak etc."

Nixian already admitted it was well more than the stealthers defending, so you might as well stop trying to pull that yourself. When it was just stealthers defending, we took the tower with ram and then headed to the keep with rams. It wasn't until mushroom buildup occurred that we had to pull off the rams. Also, if you think a group with 2 shamans and 2 skalds is a 'perfect' setup, you obviously know very little about 8v8 PvP. We just took what guildies were playng at the time, nothing perfect about it. Which leads me to...

"On a different note, if you're really looking for a good fight and demonstrating so called "skill" on this server, then I would recommend raiding relic or rvring during the prime european hours instead of the normal 4-6 a.m time block and against mostly low level and random opponents. "

Nice try. What a shortsighted thing to say. If you actually left a keep and performed in any sort or PvP aside from hiding on top of tower/inner keeps and spamming volley, you'd know that we do prime time 8v8 pretty regularly. We get waxed by a couple of the higher realm rank guilds regularly, but we're working our way up. As for late night, we have a good amount of guildies that live on the west coast in the USA who can only play at those hours, so we try to find action with them as well.

"The defender's advantage is in keep defense. That's the way it should be. The open field group attacking the keep defense force should be heavily disadvantaged. '

Who is arguing this? You were there. Our 'perfect' setup was repelled in keep defense by your rag-tag group of randoms. Seems to be working as intended, no? Even if we spent the time to put a hole in the keep with trebs while you twiddled your thumbs inside, we still have to eventually approach the keep, where the defenders will still have that advantage with multiple choke-points.

In the end, the reboot happened, no Hibs came back, and we took the relics with 6 Mids and 2 rams. My experience is not that there is an issue with trebs (they played no role in either of the successful relics pushes over the last two days), but that it is too easy for a small force to take a relic even with no defenders. I don't think a Zerker, Savage, 2 Healers and 2 Shaman should have the DPS needed to take out all the guards and the lord, but that's just me.

I selectively used those words in quotation marks as relative terms. The point was, your group was more suited for open field rvr combat than our force was. As i said before, no one in their right mind is going to fight against certain types of classes/groups with obviously inferior setups or in seriously disadvantageous situations. The issue remains with the usage of trebs (and probably catapults to an extent) to eliminate the advantage of defenders in the relic keeps. In both siege attempts by the rhyme guild over the past few days the inner doro was attack with trebs. This is nothing new as it is/has been done before by hibs, mids and albs. My point continues to be that the behavior of these particular siege weapons makes the attempted defense rather pointless overall.

Just get yourself some long-range-treb-destroying-weapons.

No.

The problem is you seem to want to turn siege combat into a one dimensional game where attackers must get on rams and line up so casters/bowman have easy pickings from the walls. There's a reason there are multiple siege engines implemented, and its to keep siege warfare from becoming just that. Trebs are a longer range, less effective means on dealing lesser damage on keeps which focuses on walls and towers rather than quickly busting throw doors.

Even if trebs are used, it takes longer, allowing more reinforcements to arrive. That works both ways, as it can allow defenders to come, or more siegers to they can push on to rams. If trebs are solely used to put a hole in the keep, then the defenders still have the advantage as they can set up multiple choke points, as well as having much more of a variety of options are far as placement.

Fishop wrote:No.

The problem is you seem to want to turn siege combat into a one dimensional game where attackers must get on rams and line up so casters/bowman have easy pickings from the walls. There's a reason there are multiple siege engines implemented, and its to keep siege warfare from becoming just that. Trebs are a longer range, less effective means on dealing lesser damage on keeps which focuses on walls and towers rather than quickly busting throw doors.

Even if trebs are used, it takes longer, allowing more reinforcements to arrive. That works both ways, as it can allow defenders to come, or more siegers to they can push on to rams. If trebs are solely used to put a hole in the keep, then the defenders still have the advantage as they can set up multiple choke points, as well as having much more of a variety of options are far as placement.

This might be a valid counter argument if it were possible to build anti siege weapons on the ramparts....

Another issue that wasnt brought up was the fact that trebs can be used out of clipping range and thus unable to be targeted by anti siege weapons at any rate. So even if one gets the ability to build anti siege weapons on the rampart, trebs (with the current mechanics) will still function the same as described. Overall i think the best solution is simply to make trebs/catapults unable to attack inner keep doors or make the damage so miniscule vs doors as to make those weapons not be viable options against those types of targets.




In respect to the idea of one dimensional fighting, try bringing your own archers/casters to take out the bowman/casters defending if they are that much of a problem. This works both ways..for the attacker and defender. Archers with volley and casters are naturally, supposed to give a good whooping to people in these situations!

I hope the hibs realize that if we couldn't have treb'd the last 15% of the door we would have just left, not taken rams up to the door. Would you rather have no action at all? As you say, no one in their right mind is going to fight against certain classes/groups in a certain setting. Whereas the hibs could at least 'potentially' kill us open field [outnumbering us 2:1 with a keep to fall back to isn't that unfair of a situation], we would be unable to kill anything if we pushed the keep.

Its not like taking the relic matters, hibs will just re-zerg it in the morning. One of the things I liked most about Uth when I first came here was no relics. Relics are nothing more than handing the realm with the most population a static bonus, this was seen time and time again on live.

Lets take a look at common class makeup. Mid has 3 casters, 1 of them is broken, all 3 of them are difficult to level. The Mid archer, hunter, is currently broken on uth as well [not to mention, in a classic setting, rangers are very powerful soloers and as a result very common]. Hib on the other hand, has 4 casters, 3 of which are among the best levelers in the game [animist, mentalist, enchanter], the best archer, and 3[4] healing classes. It takes little more than 1 animist spreading shrooms outfront a keep to make any kind of offense pointless. They have too much HP [as well as cannot mez them if they are spread], last a long time, interrupt without any kind of input required of the user, and do considerable damage [a solo shroom nukes my healer for 147]. The fact is, it is far too easy for 1 animist to push back even a considerable number of attackers/defenders in any kind of situation, not to mention it can be done safely without exposing the animst to danger. Spreading shrooms is not difficult to do, and the game was never balanced with it in mind. Telling us to bring more caster/bowmen is nothing more than a convienient excuse on your part to ignore the fact at hand, they aren't commonly present, as 2/4 are currently broken.

You say 'twinked'. Twinked. You said twinked. This is Uthgard, this is not ToA, everyone can be 'twinked' quite easily. It takes a melee and a support to farm 90% of the best-template equipment, I'm sure its just as doable with an enchanter/support or animists as well. Don't have those? /broad to start groups to do them, I see it all the time. Can't find crafters? make them, we had to and you are no less capable. Cant' make a template? there are many templates available on the forums or you can 'ask' someone.

Anti-siege would change little, we would just build another treb after you destroyed the first one and you would be back here complaining about it all over again. We treb because we have little option, if we couldn't, we wouldn't be there at all. Casters and archers are supposed to be natural defenders, yes. However, there is a considerable difference between a natural defender and a 1 button volley spammer safely out of harms way 1 rounding fully buffed targets getting healed [idk if its a bug since the recent change, but moving away from the volley did not result in less shots].

you arent supposed to take a keep defended by casters/archers with your zero-range tankgroup. could you please understand that? keeps do not work this way.

besides that, we are talking about the general situation. noone gives a crap about your group and your circumstances. the problem is, you can completely open a keep with trebuchets from a safe distance. as stated earlier, this leads to extremely frustrating situations and general lameness, as it forces defenders to be able to beat the attackers in open field. that is all there is to discuss. although, there isn't any point in discussing this, it's a fact. the only question that has to be answered is HOW to nerf trebs into oblivion.

if you ask me, just make them unable to attack doors just like rams are unable to attack walls.

You ignore the fact that even when walls have holes punched in them and when the doors are down the defenders are still able to use choke points to their advantage. I was not implying that a keep defended by casters/archers should be easily taken by a zero-range tankgroup, and I know that keeps do not work this way, defenders should have an advantage but its a matter of howmuch of an advantage.

The problem I have with archers/animsts is that they are able to freely attack and push without endangering themselves in any way, whereas the traditional casters at least must put themselves in a somewhat vulnerable position to attack. There are frustrating situations and lameness going on from both sides, not just the defenders getting trebed down. I can't see why the hibs are so up on nerfing trebs, those mid attackers creating action would not be there if trebs were no longer part of the equation. Attackers rushing a doorless keep is not the same as open field, setup choke points, coordinate a bit, use some strategy, defenders having the advantage doesn't mean they should easily mindlessly win every time. There is already a 1 treb limit and the damage is pretty dismal so it takes a while, which encourages attackers to use rams but leaves other options open. That group trebbing is in a stationary position vulnerable to being rushed or flanked.

At least you can get inside to defend, ever try getting inside a keep surrounded by tanglers and stun nukers? Its easy for you to say 'use rams' when your the one sitting inside of the shroom stacks.

Hib does fine open-field on Uth, and Hib almost always holds 2 or more of the relics, and if they don't they'll have it back by the next morning. I don't see you having a problem with keep siege, which would lead me to believe you don't need the boost from nerfing trebs further.

do you notice how every argument you make is based on mid bringing only tanks and rushing the ****** out of enemies you can run up to? truth is, the whole fricking playerbase of the realm doesnt want to adapt and bring casters of their own, and instead resorts to lame tactics. do you seriously want to discuss this topic while assuming that mid currently is doing something that is intended?

2 month or so ago, hib was pure tanks too btw. not a single caster in rvr. since the introduction of relics, hib has a pure caster and a hybrid group running reguarily. alb is only running hybrids, even the pugs. draw your own conclusions.

Elaeli wrote:you arent supposed to take a keep defended by casters/archers with your zero-range tankgroup. could you please understand that? keeps do not work this way.

besides that, we are talking about the general situation. noone gives a crap about your group and your circumstances. the problem is, you can completely open a keep with trebuchets from a safe distance. as stated earlier, this leads to extremely frustrating situations and general lameness, as it forces defenders to be able to beat the attackers in open field. that is all there is to discuss. although, there isn't any point in discussing this, it's a fact. the only question that has to be answered is HOW to nerf trebs into oblivion.

if you ask me, just make them unable to attack doors just like rams are unable to attack walls.

Elaeli wrote:do you notice how every argument you make is based on mid bringing only tanks and rushing the ****** out of enemies you can run up to? truth is, the whole fricking playerbase of the realm doesnt want to adapt and bring casters of their own, and instead resorts to lame tactics. do you seriously want to discuss this topic while assuming that mid currently is doing something that is intended?

2 month or so ago, hib was pure tanks too btw. not a single caster in rvr. since the introduction of relics, hib has a pure caster and a hybrid group running reguarily. alb is only running hybrids, even the pugs. draw your own conclusions.

/signed

plz come back to topic guys

Scroll up and read my post on common class makeup, in it I talk about ~why~ you see the classes you see in rvr. You say 2 months ago hib was pure tanks, and now casters, thats because the hib casters are strong levelers. The mid casters are not. You will *always* see more casters in hib and alb because there *are more caster classes* and most of which are not broken, this is not the case in mid.

As far as siege balanced is concerned I would hope there is some kind of middleground that can be achieved. I don't want to have unfair advantages myself as it will in turn cause a decline in action which is never a good thing. I've tried to state that everytime I've done tower warfare our group has brought 2 casters with us, so we aren't absent of them, we just aren't 100% caster based. With things like animst running rampant [and yes, its connected] I can't see a treb nerf being fair in any way.

We bring a hybrid group, and you tell us its a tank group, you say the playerbase doesn't want to 'adapt' but they don't have easymode caster leveling like hib. Alb has always run hybrids, they have to, you cannot have a pure melee setup in alb, it doesn't work.

In the current implementation everyone is capable of using trebs, its a mostly even playingfield, a doorless tower is nowhere near the same as openfield you would learn that if you had the gall to stop and fight instead of blaming it on trebs and hoppin off the back. If trebs were nerfed hib would gain a much un-needed boost to its keep siege power [lets remember who holds the relics 90% of the time]. At least with the current impementation everyone has a chance at some point, I couldn't say the same if trebs were nerfed.