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trademark
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Postby trademark » Aug 08, 2017 00:18

Agreed with Split; I've been telling folks not to upgrade doors for that reason. I'm not sure I agree with the V-curve you have setup, Split (I think I'd prefer an all-doors-are-created-equal approach), but it's better than what exists now, certainly.
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Postby Glenad » Aug 08, 2017 00:20

found a level 2 door on a mid keep yesterday (I was shocked, and of course the inner was 1)..first one I had seen not on a TA keep in weeks, they don't even upgrade crau when they have it, and the wood's RIGHT THERE.

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Postby Blue » Aug 08, 2017 00:40

See, this is exactly why we tried to avoid giving RP for keep takes in the first place. If keeps are too attractive targets why would you upgrade doors and invest into it if its taken 2h later. We start to run into same problems as we have seen on Uthgard 1. Players also begin to make it harder for the enemy to get RP for keep takes. Thats totally normal as they don't want their keep to be raided. Easiest way is to make it as unattractive to the enemy as possible. On Uthgard 1 we have seen behavior like downgrading/release keeps right before its taken to lower the reward the enemy will get. We countered that with a delayed downgrade and incombat timers.

We have also seen level 10 keeps with level 1 doors which were quite easy to breach but giving high rewards for no reason. We are not accepting such reward for an easy keep take anymore. Sorry, that will not happen. I understand Splitquicks intention of having doors giving the least amount of RP in the mid levels to encourage to upgrade doors to a level where the enemy RP reward is minimized. But that is not how it should work.

The goal should not be to minimize RP's for the enemy, the goal should be to hold the keep at any costs and if possible at a high level. The correct way would be to make holding a keep so attractive that you don't want to lose it. And a level 10 door must be so hard that defenders have a lot of time to get there and defend it. Also the defense of the keep itself should be rewarded in the end.
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Postby vadox » Aug 08, 2017 00:52

Splitquick wrote:I'm going to post one of my issues with the current way RPs are doled out in the keeptaking system.

The MAIN issue is the way that keep doors are rewarded. This is an issue because, quite simply, there are TOO MANY GUILDS WHO DO NOT UPGRADE DOORS. The amount of lvl 1 doors I run into (especially in mid, literally I think one guild upgrades doors) is the far majority of keeps. Those that do upgrade, maybe upgrade the doors to 2 or 3. Most likely whatever salvage wood they had on them.

This also makes me want to personally leave doors lvl 1. If the enemy knows your guild or realm upgrades doors (generally hibernia is fairly good about upgrading, as they would probably say alb is) it's a more appetizing target because it'll give more RPs. If the enemy knows you leave doors lvl 1, and know they'll get 250 RPs for taking the keep, they probably won't bother. It also makes me want to leave doors lvl 1 to not LITERALLY GIVE MY ENEMY RPs. Every upgrade we do to the door is putting more RP into the pool, for very little benefit to the defending guild.

While I agree effort should be rewarded, a realm NOT taking the time and effort to upgrade their doors needs retroactively rewarded to the enemy. If a door is left lvl 1, it should give the same amount of RPs as a level 9 door, scaling backwards till it meets evenly in the middle.
Lvl 1 door = lvl 9 door worth of RPs
Lvl 2 door = lvl 8 door worth of RPs
Lvl 3 door = lvl 7 door worth of RPs
Lvl 4 door = lvl 6 door worth of RPs
Lvl 5 door = lvl 5 door worth of RPs
Lvl 6 door = lvl 6 door worth of RPs
Lvl 7 door = lvl 7 door worth of RPs
Lvl 8 door = lvl 8 door worth of RPs
Lvl 9 door = lvl 9 door worth of RPs
Lvl 10 door = lvl 10 door worth of RPs
.....

Please consider this change.


sorry, Splitquick - but that is a biased statement and proposed by you only because of how you run things. You take keeps with the zerg not seen since the days of Genghis Khan. Unfortunately, for you, your zerg gets small number of RPs and you are probably hearing about it. Last few days, you can't even get 3 full groups retaking keeps. Our guild takes your level 10 keeps with 1-2 groups and gets decent number of RPs. Thank you for spending all that cash and give us a bonus for it. If you look at my earlier posts, I always advocated not even claiming keeps because zerg like Splitquick will not bother taking it for the 100 rps or so. This is a game and there are strategies, not just mindless zerg fest. You adopt to what Uthgard Gods throw at you. Giving same rps for level 1 keep so that your zerg gets 500 rps instead of 100 rps? Hell no. Run your zerg with less numbers or find something else to do or how to defend your keeps.

one thing I can brag about is a numbrer of keeps I and my guild took in our lifetime, any strategy how to take the keep and what to claim and upgrade is known to me. Adaptation is the key. At least we get RPs for the keep now, something that I was pushing all along. I do not agree with giving tons of rps for level 1 keep - that is not right.

Mids don't upgrade doors, specially now because we only have one relic. You don't need to be a genius to realize that.

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Postby Splitquick » Aug 08, 2017 01:43

Blue wrote:Also the defense of the keep itself should be rewarded in the end.


If you could find a way to implement RP rewards for successful keep defense, you'd see a lot more defense of keeps.
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Postby Splitquick » Aug 08, 2017 01:50

trademark wrote:Agreed with Split; I've been telling folks not to upgrade doors for that reason. I'm not sure I agree with the V-curve you have setup, Split (I think I'd prefer an all-doors-are-created-equal approach), but it's better than what exists now, certainly.


Yes after posting it I thought about the curve being much smaller, or just decreasing the overall amount doors contribute. Either way, I think a tweak to the delivery system could give incentives to repair the doors, defend the keeps, and take enemy keeps. Right now it's set up to reward little more than keep-trading... instead of lvling the doors and defending inside and preventing the enemy from taking it from you.
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Postby trademark » Aug 08, 2017 02:31

Level 3 doors with an unclaimed keep was ~650 RPs (15 on keep). For science!
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Postby Splitquick » Aug 08, 2017 03:11

vadox wrote:I always advocated not even claiming keeps because zerg like Splitquick will not bother taking it for the 100 rps or so


Lol. You must not know me very well. :) I have taken way more keeps before they implemented RPs for keeptakes than after.

Don't be mistaken, I'm not one to push a personal agenda. I knew what I was getting into when I started leading zergs and keeptakes, and there was no RP reward. You have to be willing to sacrifice your personal gain to help others enjoy the game.

What I'm pointing out is an obvious flaw in the delivery system which has already proven to give unintended results (people leaving doors/keeps lvl 1 to avoid giving enemy RPs)

The intent of the system was to reward time investment, that was stated. One guild taking a keep, spending their time/money/effort to upgrade the doors, to directly correlate to the enemy receiving a bigger RP pool for taking the keep and the defenders receiving nothing except an attaboy for defending the keep, is inherently flawed.

The intent of the system, to promote action in/at/around keeps is great. The only reason I would push for more RPs handed out is to get more people out and in the frontiers, because this is an MMO, the first letter of that meaning massively.

You also say this is a game and there are strategies, not just mindless zerging, but you also mentioned your relic. Without our strategy, that relic would not be sitting in mid right now, it would be in hib, or if a few Alb personalities had their way, it would have been capped, and we'd probably have no relics right now.

My point is very simple: I think the intent was correct, but the implementation is causing unintended results. I think a tweak to the system could change the incentives and promote the original intent.

I'm not saying my suggestion needs implemented, just bringing it up for discussion to try to see if there is something small that can be changed to better represent the original intent behind the change.
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Postby Glenad » Aug 08, 2017 04:18

because this is an MMO, the first letter of that meaning massively.


I love that, I may steal it :p.


Maybe we could connect the keep to the doors: for example, for it to raise to level 10, the doors would have to be a certain level for it to upgrade (like 10).


RP's for keep defense has always been a good idea, but it will never happen, because keep defense does not favor Mid.

And yeah, I was over 100 keeptakes before they implemented ANY rps, I know Split was well north of that. Dev's are gonna have to do something, b/c realm with no relics is about to drop all the keeps and doors.

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Postby vadox » Aug 08, 2017 06:03

Devs certainly did. I was whining for months about keeps to give rps. My dream came true but today rps are going overboard. All it takes is for splitquick to post? We killed few albs near our keep and got 2.5k rps bonus. We took a keep with 2fg+, got 1.5k rps + 600 bonus. Keep zerg fest - here we go.

Devs and Abydos - should i search for your replies to my posts with your "explanation" why we should not get rps for keeps?

another idea: place siege merchants right near each keep so we can just buy rams there?

everyone giving their 2 cents how to make this work so everyone will be happy. you start tweaking this and you will get in a bigger hole than ever. simple formula is level of keep gives certain rps, period. all this nonsense with door level is not needed. keep should have a pool of rps. maybe level 1 keep gives 300 rps to maximum 2 full groups and then scales down. level 4 - maybe 700 rps. level 10 - 2.5k rps. Doors are up to guild to upgrade if they want to be able to get to keep on time. Door level should not play a role in RPs. Zerging a keep with 50 people hoping to get 1k rps for it is absurd.

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Postby Abydos » Aug 08, 2017 06:13

vadox wrote:We killed few albs near our keep and got 2.5k rps bonus.


Sounds fishy. Get more info please. These values did not show up in any test.

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Postby Splitquick » Aug 08, 2017 08:18

vadox wrote:All it takes is for splitquick to post?


Do you really think my post had any impact on their decision making process? I've seen how much thought they put into changes they decide to make. I can guarantee you they didn't throw a patch together in a hurry because of a post I made flattering as that might sound. I understand you don't agree with changes I proposed that you felt were personally beneficial to me, but let's promote healthy debate and potential solutions.

vadox wrote:I was whining for months


Maybe herein lies some of your problem with being heard.
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Postby Celeny » Aug 08, 2017 08:42

Splitquick wrote:I'm going to post one of my issues with the current way RPs are doled out in the keeptaking system.

The MAIN issue is the way that keep doors are rewarded. This is an issue because, quite simply, there are TOO MANY GUILDS WHO DO NOT UPGRADE DOORS. The amount of lvl 1 doors I run into (especially in mid, literally I think one guild upgrades doors) is the far majority of keeps. Those that do upgrade, maybe upgrade the doors to 2 or 3. Most likely whatever salvage wood they had on them.

This also makes me want to personally leave doors lvl 1. If the enemy knows your guild or realm upgrades doors (generally hibernia is fairly good about upgrading, as they would probably say alb is) it's a more appetizing target because it'll give more RPs. If the enemy knows you leave doors lvl 1, and know they'll get 250 RPs for taking the keep, they probably won't bother. It also makes me want to leave doors lvl 1 to not LITERALLY GIVE MY ENEMY RPs. Every upgrade we do to the door is putting more RP into the pool, for very little benefit to the defending guild.

While I agree effort should be rewarded, a realm NOT taking the time and effort to upgrade their doors needs retroactively rewarded to the enemy. If a door is left lvl 1, it should give the same amount of RPs as a level 9 door, scaling backwards till it meets evenly in the middle.
Lvl 1 door = lvl 9 door worth of RPs
Lvl 2 door = lvl 8 door worth of RPs
Lvl 3 door = lvl 7 door worth of RPs
Lvl 4 door = lvl 6 door worth of RPs
Lvl 5 door = lvl 5 door worth of RPs
Lvl 6 door = lvl 6 door worth of RPs
Lvl 7 door = lvl 7 door worth of RPs
Lvl 8 door = lvl 8 door worth of RPs
Lvl 9 door = lvl 9 door worth of RPs
Lvl 10 door = lvl 10 door worth of RPs

This way everyone would be encouraged to at least upgrade their door to level 4 or 5. The lvl 1 door on every keep is actually disappointing now, as you know it's worth jackall for RPs at that point. This system needs changed so guilds are ENCOURAGED to upgrade doors to PREVENT the enemy from getting RPs. Not sitting there upgrading the doors, knowing you're giving the enemy more RPs by doing so. It's assbackwards the way it is.

This would encourage everyone to WANT to upgrade doors, even going on wood runs like the old days to upgrade doors in the enemies territory. This would of course need a timer after a keep is taken, not kicking in until the defenders have had time to upgrade the doors. If the keep is attacked before that time, the current system could be used.

Please consider this change.


While I hate you, this change is mathematically superior to anything else I could think of.

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Abydos
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Postby Abydos » Aug 08, 2017 08:54

Abydos wrote:
vadox wrote:We killed few albs near our keep and got 2.5k rps bonus.


Sounds fishy. Get more info please. These values did not show up in any test.

Was able to watch a siege. We may have a bug. We will take a reboot if so.

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Postby m0e » Aug 08, 2017 11:11

Blue wrote:What we do is already alot better than a splitted reward which you would normally see in DAoC at each corner. So don't blame us as if we would have never thought about it. Reward should still be a function of effort&challenge.


RP reward for keeps is actually a custom change that is affecting social rvr aspects. Before the rewards were implemented you maybe had less keep raids going but those were most likely announced in borderkeeps and alliance chats. There often was a public BG to join the raid and every casual player was welcome.

So now we get RPs for keeps but at the same time you tell ppl to stick with 8 (now 16) players if they want to get the max reward. Do you think they will open a BG and spread word about the upcoming raid to invite the casuals to join them? Hell no, they can easy take the keeps with 2 set groups, so why would they share RPs? For the health of the server? I doubt it while reading some of the comments here.

Missing endgame content for casuals is a problem and it won't help if they are not welcome to keep raids.

Don't get me wrong, this is the only change i don't like, otherwise you did a great job improving the game without hurting the classic setting much and im sure if we had the current patch state at launch of the server, there would be still 2k+ ppl playing, those custom changes and
Splitquick wrote:I knew what I was getting into when I started leading zergs and keeptakes, and there was no RP reward. You have to be willing to sacrifice your personal gain to help others enjoy the game.
2-3 of his kind in each realm.

Edit:
vadox wrote:another idea: place siege merchants right near each keep so we can just buy rams there?

How about you just aks more ppl to join your raid instead, so you could carry more rams? :D

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