Thydrum wrote:Why does everything have to be incentivized explicitly? This is the problem with new DAOC, and the reason live FAILED.

it doesn't have to, but it certainly helps

i am still levelling, but if there really is no starting point for newer players that either don't have a fullgrp of friends to run with, or don't have a name that itself finds them groups, then what are they supposed to do? How shall they grow into the medium RRs where it starts making sense to do 8vs8?

moha wrote:I think the biggest problem on the casual side is that nobody wants to organize anything.

You can give your so called 8vs8 elitist all the ****** you want, but in the end they come together, organize PvE and RvR for them and have fun. For the amount of casual players there are pretty few people who actually try to form a RvR zerg, a PvE raid or whatever. Most of them just stand around and wait for someone else to do the organizing and if nobody does that, they go to the forums and cry that this server is so casual unfriendly. You don't think you will have any chance with your group in RvR? Just roam with 3 Groups, you will kill every 8man if you are not completely braindead. Don't have DF? Then build a zerg and start raiding keeps. Every time I see a zerg wipe, there are so many people who just leave without saying anything. Whole groups just vanish. Do this a couple of times in an 8vs8 group and absolutely nobody will ever invite you again. But still people think it's ok to do so on a more casual side.

RPs for keeps is not the reason casual RvR is rarely happening, it's your lazy attitude.

Another way of looking at the problem is:

1) People dont like to loose in a devastating factor
2) People are lazy and figure its too much effort to create a fun situation for themselves (building grps, expanding alliance, joining the right guilds, making the right character)

You cannot simply fix these above issues without destroying the fundamental game mechanics.

Look at live right now. It is completely socialized, every class is bland equal and so is the skill ceiling, equalized. Bioware kept putting in artificial equalizers to lower the gap between apex player and plankton player.

The truth is, daoc is no fun without plankton players to feed the top apex players need for kills and rp.

It is also true that modern live daoc is watered out, dumbed down and has a ton of artificial equalizers to lower the gap ensuring top apex groups cannot smash the plankton.

Compromise the game mechanics in order to keep whinging plankton VS letting plankton leave and have the server spiral into a low population 8v8 fest.

Or you could somehow ensure a steady stream of new plankton to feed the higher ups.

Ideally, you want a situation were u have new plankton players coming in to feed apex players. Over time some of the plankton will evovle into apex themselves while a mayority will leave only to be replaced by new fresh plankton.

I don't believe for a minute the people who are lvl >40 still would participate in RVR / 8v8 even if they were given 50, template rr10 instantly.
The reason why they are not lvl 50 and templated already is that they don't play enough. They don't have the necessary gaming time to build a social network of like minded players. They don't have the competitive drive to be better then other players, hence why they give up and play less and less.

There is no fix for that.

Musaks wrote:

Thydrum wrote:Why does everything have to be incentivized explicitly? This is the problem with new DAOC, and the reason live FAILED.

it doesn't have to, but it certainly helps

i am still levelling, but if there really is no starting point for newer players that either don't have a fullgrp of friends to run with, or don't have a name that itself finds them groups, then what are they supposed to do? How shall they grow into the medium RRs where it starts making sense to do 8vs8?

That is a good question.

How do you enable someone that plays 2-5 hours / week to go into rr5 easily without also diminishing the learning experience that comes with "oldschool" rr1-5 vs higher RRs?

How do you not end up in a slippery slope while doing this?

I agree that you need ham on your sandwich, but it would be less then ideal if you had to feed the pig all your bread in order for that ham.

oLd-Sneakers wrote:

Musaks wrote:

Thydrum wrote:Why does everything have to be incentivized explicitly? This is the problem with new DAOC, and the reason live FAILED.

it doesn't have to, but it certainly helps

i am still levelling, but if there really is no starting point for newer players that either don't have a fullgrp of friends to run with, or don't have a name that itself finds them groups, then what are they supposed to do? How shall they grow into the medium RRs where it starts making sense to do 8vs8?

That is a good question.

How do you enable someone that plays 2-5 hours / week to go into rr5 easily without also diminishing the learning experience that comes with "oldschool" rr1-5 vs higher RRs?

How do you not end up in a slippery slope while doing this?

I agree that you need ham on your sandwich, but it would be less then ideal if you had to feed the pig all your bread in order for that ham.

You're going in circles. Not all slopes end in i50 free rps etc.

Incentives are a great reason why slippery slopes don't apply. Rather than giving something away which will in turn feed the need to be given something else, we must incentivise what is already present on the server by altering other parts.

For example, rps for keeps. If we just give away free realm points then that takes away the need to RvR. But by rewarding participation in rvr with realm points we introduce a new dynamic. Using some forethought we can work out how this would affect the player base. A small incentive to get people taking keeps would be to make them rewarding. By making them rewarding we are incentivising keep warfare. By incentivising keep warfare we are incentivising a different dynamic of RvR. Something different to 8v8. By introducing this new dynamic we are incentivising many high level players - not just level 50s - into RvR warfare. Lots of people that are "stuck" at 50 can now continue with their characters progression. 1, by taking keeps for realm points, and 2, within this new keep warfare dynamic.

There is no slope. And this applies to many suggestions on this board.

The bottom line is this is a 2001 MMO (2003 patch) without hand-holding. I do agree that taking and defending keeps should give RPs based on kills and duration of the assault to help more casual players. I also think you should get less RPs for the more attackers/defenders you win with, so zerging with 100 people isn't nearly as useful as say 2-3 fg.

However, if your argument is regarding people who play "2-5 hours per week", this is not going to help you. It will still take you 2 years to get RR5 at that rate. Someone who truly plays that little should not be factored into any sort of balance curve, because they are largely irrelevant. It should be leaned more towards people who play ~2 hours per day.

For people also mentioning what to do if you are a new 50 with no name or set group to play with, again, you came into this knowing we don't have group queues for instant-BG or dungeon pugs.

I came to this server with a guild that played together all beta and had a setup and a plan. They all either quit or rerolled after the first week and I had no one to help me do anything. Now I am #7 on Uthgard in one of the strongest guilds. If you want it badly enough and are a good player, then stop making excuses and get in some groups.

This is the point "when you want it badly enough". The casuals don't want it. Grafic is bad, interface sucks, map doesn't work. You need the horse routes and even these are bugged. They don't want to look for hours to form a group. Even leveling in the 30 is hard to find a group. Finding a rvr group and be successful is even harder. There is no zerg like in the old days. We have no new frontiers where people ported to the keeps and fight there or at the bridges. You can only roam the frontier and this often ends in death without chance. The 8vs8 makes it even worse. You create a huge arena for some people to have fun. The rest of the community stays outside and leaves. The hardcore people will stay but the rest will leave over time. Sad but it will happen in my opinion.

Form a zerg if you can't compete with the 8mans. Alb has been doing that lately, and then a few mid/hib 8mans will group up and try to zerg bust. Hib and Mid could start forming their own zerg to combat the Alb one during NA primetime!


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I think 8v8 groups have to lose their toxic attitude if the server is to remain playable for casuals. When groups from the same realm encourage enemies to kill their own realm mates so that they can continue playing in their sterile 8v8 environment something is really wrong. When 2-3 grps form a 'zerg' and attack everyone they see, the two enemy realms' 8v8 grps will attack and wipe them first, with your own realm's 8 grp watching until they can continue with their 8v8 action, that's just toxic to the overall atmosphere of the game.

That's not just playing your own game, it's actively destroying the game of others.

Where does honour stop and cross realming (which deserves a ban) begin? Not easy to say, but encouraging and supporting other realms to kill your own realm mates by disengaging from a fight you're in may very well be that.

Thydrum wrote:Why does everything have to be incentivized explicitly? This is the problem with new DAOC, and the reason live FAILED.

Sorry, you have no idea what game design is.

You cannot change people's minds. People adapt to the game code. Game code does not change to people. If you want somethign to happen, you need to code incentives (explicit or implicit) that accomplish this.

I was reluctant to jump back into DAoC because the truth is, when this game was created, it was crudely planned out, and only barely held down a community 15 years ago. It cannot hold a sustainable community today without serious changes, which I don't think Uthgard is up to the task of doing.

Delete plz.

Although I appreciate the ongoing discussion, please stay on topic.

I made a suggestion for 3 very specific keep related changes to incentivise RvR for casuals, which fits very well with the RvR keep warfare nature of DAoC, and providing professional groups with more meaningful RvR opportunities. Win/Win for everyone.

In short:

1. Daily task for keep take
2. Daily task for keep defense
3. Ability to log back in inside besieged keeps.

I am a stalwart defender of the developers position on minimal deviation from the stated goal.

That said, I do believe there are certain situations where well considered and proportional changes can be beneficial and should be considered. As demonstrated with the changes to battlegrounds I believe the devs are of a similar mindset. This is a great example of a small change bringing a positive result.

One of the areas I do believe this could be beneficial for the servers population would be a moderate, capped and well considered hard incentive for keep warfare. I appreciate there are some existing soft incentives.

One thing that has become absolutely apparent to me in the current stage of my life is that I really don't have the inclination to put the effort into being part of a set guild group.

I would, in truth, rather logon for an hour or two every evening or two and put a group together to take or defend a couple of keeps. If I happen to get a good 8v8 vs another enemy pug amongst all of that, great.

However, only the GMs have the data available to measure activity across the server. Making any change is a judgement call that they need to make for themselves, as to its need and priority over and above achieving their initial goal (1.65 bug free) or any other important bug / feature that may need attention.

With any voluntary driven development project, patience is key. Something our (average) generation is not particularly used to.





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Ensley03 wrote:Someone who truly plays that little should not be factored into any sort of balance curve, because they are largely irrelevant.

8v8 elitists living in their tiny bubble should not be factored into any sort of balance curve, because they are largely irrelevant. It should be leaned more towards people who play MMORPG and not surrogate MOBA.

Lurker wrote:With any voluntary driven development project, patience is key. Something our (average) generation is not particularly used to.

Probably because people in their 30s noticed that life is short and putting few years in something is not justified if you have no idea what do you see in the end: blooming freeshard of classic game or extra line in devs portfolio.

You know what truly patient man would do? He wouldnt even start playing Uth until all the stuff gets sorted out, he would patiently wait till 1.65 bug free with SI etc. You have decent pop now only thanks to impatient people who can't wait to play good old game.

On topic: yes, obviously non-hardcore (aka sane) people need to be subtly lured in RVR. After they get used to come there few times a week, it would be much easier to create real warfare. People will come to keep as casually as they come to popular xp farm spot. Minimum RP wage wont make anyone millionaire so no reason to worry about balance. And ofc it should be done before people quit. Sitting and waiting when devs are done with bugs and SI makes as much sense as waiting for Uth 3.0.

Main problem is people on other realms don't do the same as Mids, there are pugs running all day long with all kinds of people and numbers while other realms just sit there and wait forever for a perfect setup and finally after 5 hours of wait when you go out you get added by something and log because you're frustrated and its already late.

Mitsunix wrote:Main problem is people on other realms don't do the same as Mids, there are pugs running all day long with all kinds of people and numbers while other realms just sit there and wait forever for a perfect setup and finally after 5 hours of wait when you go out you get added by something and log because you're frustrated and its already late.

1. Its much easier to create mid groups
2. there are much more players to find classes who you need
3. you dont have the problem to run against mid

But if u think iam wrong pls delete your chars and come to hib that u see whats going on here.