ForumThat set fg albs in emain, last night.
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Caster setup is the way to go for albion in this patch but that requires a lot of coordination and experience. You can never see a pug playing that kind of setup and be effective. It's also harder to build because that requires specific classes and specs which are short on alb atm. Most alb pugs are running without a second cleric right now. On the other hand; you can still build a tank heavy mid pug from 8 clickers and still win some fights as long as they have assist macro. That's why mid is easy mode, not because the other realms are weaker. |
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Are you talking about 8v8? In the last two months I have never ever seen a group in 8v8 without a second Cleric. Two Minstrels, two Armsmen, yes. But one Cleric? Who does that? Why would you run with only one Cleric? I'd rather go level a Scout solo than running with one Cleric (same goes for one Healer or one Druid). That is not even a setup which is remotely considerable, even with a Friar (haven't seen one of those either). |
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Yes, talking about 8v8. I have seen many, been in some. Alb is short on RvR clerics and some groups decide to run without the second one or get a 40+ or one with no temp after 30-45 minutes of spamming on /as. It was just an example about finding the required classes on alb. That goes for the cabbies aswell. Forget finding 2 cabbies with the right specs for a caster setup like that, finding one trispec is already a challenge for pugs. So alb pugs just get whatever they can. |
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FYI im a noob! WHY is that so? Whats so different in these three groups and why does the mid group work better? Skald, Warrior, 2 Healer, Shaman, 3 Berserker Bard, Fian, 2 Druids, Warden/another bard, 3 Blademaster Minst, Arms, 2 Clerics, sorc, 3 mercs Why is the mid group in an advantage that is so big everyone considers mid the easy realm? As i said im a noob and genuinely curious. |
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I rarely see any of these setups in 8x8 RvR. I don't know where you got them from.  Why? Minst, Arms, 2 Clerics, sorc, 3 mercs. -> NEVER seen that setup! Endu missing (Pots possible), Theurg missing (No Haste / dmg-add in melee group = fail), the only CC and Rupt is Sorc (beneath Minstrel). Have fun without Nearsight or Desease, so you would need at least a tri spec Caba. Typically resulting in: 2x Cleric, Sorc, Minstrel, Theurg, Caba, Arms (Peeler), Merc. Here you go, one melee-dps less than Mid, 3 cloth wearing stick targets and no Endu (beside Pots, have fun refilling your inventory every 2h). Skald, Warrior, 2 Healer, Shaman, 3 Berserker -> Why? Usually you will see: 2x Healer, Schami, Skald, Warrior, 1x RM OR third healer, 2 Savages (or Bers, while I see Savages ahead). 3-4 melee AT, third healer = no cloth wearing first targets / RM = NS + PBT + Cast-Dmg. Everything you need, no core ability is missing (with RM). Not saying Midgard is OP or easy mode, but regarding the group setup, it is damn easy to get all the core abilites into one setup. The rookie playstyle is also more than easy, rupt (with inst if needed) and Stick. Bard, Fian, 2 Druids, Warden/another bard, 3 Blademaster -> I am not that familiar with good Hib setups, while I am sure you don't need to move out of Ligen without Nearsight / Desease and a proper debuff Train. I rarely see melee focused Hib-groups and when I see them, at least the core abilites are included (Nearsight, Desease). Conclusion: Midgards core abilites are focused on a quite small amount of classes, which easily fit into one setup. Alb and Hib classes are more specialized, therefore you need more classes to get the core abilites into one setup. Which means it is harder to build a proper Alb- / Hib-group, it doesn't mean that the Midgroups are better. Also, the group-setup is only one point. RA's also are an important point, Alb RA's hard counter Mid-Tank-Setups (BoF + SoS), Hib RA's Counter Alb-Caster-Setups (Group Purge, BAoD), Mid-RA's support the durabilty aspect of their groups (2-3 PR) and the Push aspect of their typical playstyle (Ichor). |
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Thanks for the detailed explanation!
I just "build" groups out of the mid context. so drui = healer = cleric, Arms = warri = fian, berserker = blademaster = merc. Thats how i came up with it. Didnt know the utilities on the key classes are so different. |
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With 2 healer + 1 shaman, you have all the utility you need as a tank heavy group so you will do fine with any combination of 5x det tanks (warrior, zerker, savage). You can put one skald, one rm or even both in it. You can get a third healer. It will still work. Mid is tank realm and mid classes have higher weapon skill overall (yes, even dwarf warrior has more ws than highlander arms). LA is superior to DW/CD. Mid does fine with str only weapons thanks to trolls with highest str in game and celerity, while mercs/bms need to use 50/50 str/dex pierce/thrust weapons or even split specs to deal decent dmg (which is still not equal to a troll zerker). That hib tank setup still works thou. 3x bm train doesn't hit like 3x zerker but bms being able to guard each other at the beginning and having red pbt in range all the time makes them harder to slam/snare. Also being able to slam assist targets and their guard-bot makes up for it. You still lose disease if you don't run with eld while shaman has it on mid. The alb setup you mentioned doesn't even have haste. A theurg almost doubles the melee dps with haste and dmg add and if you get one, you end up with 2x mercs. You also don't have disease. Tri-spec caba is the highest utility caster in the game. It's like the combination of eld (disease, ns) and chanter (debuff, pet rupt). So you lose a lot not having one and if you get one... it's not a tank setup anymore with just one merc, one arms. Also everyone in group needs to have endu potions which is not the case for some puggers (I don't know why, it's not that hard). So running a tank heavy alb group is like playing a gimp version of mid tank heavy group, which is doable but not as effective. |
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The Pros and Cons of an asymmetric Class-System.  Check out: http://genuapp.appspot.com/char/index.html OR http://play.nixian.eu/index.php?page=charbuilder for Class details. |
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Prime is the only group I know that can sit in the middle of the road to regenerate mana and people will still dodge.
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Agreed for the most part, but alb caster groups are still pretty easy. Body Train hits hard, bolt range mezz, SoS, BoF, Minstrels can tame a red pet at rr4 apparently, as well as the pet is buggy here. EDIT: this has nothing to do with any specific individuals or guild. Semi-Quit~ WTB QoL
Exde - Bard Exdez - Enchanter Exdee - Druid RIP <Booted> |
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Well I wasn't even talking about guild set groups. Building a solid caster pug group is not possible right now. About it being easy to play; ofc it's not rocket science but still requires more exp and communication than tank heavy groups. SoS has no use if your group is not moving together. Bolt range mez? I don't remember an alb group wining just because of it. Hard to find a group who doesn't spread on inc. Also mid has two demezzers and hib has 2x group purge. Everyone has self purge and tanks have charge. BoF is OP indeed but without physical defense RA, you need it to to be able to play caster groups. Savage and zerkers are one-hitting casters when it's down.  Your reply is all about how strong albion is but I never said it's weak anyway. Looking at pug perspective it's harder to build a working pug compared to mid. That's all I'm saying. |
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Well yea mid is easy mode, no one with a brain is arguing that. Tank groups are just easier to perform at a decent level. But an Alb caster group is not as hard as you are making it sound. Tanks have charge? Which server are you playing? Also everyone does not have purge at lower RRs. Albs run 2 sorcs 1 mini most times I found. so that is 3 demezz, the minstrel is basically un cc'able as well. I would take SoS over 2x group purge any day. Hib has no BoF or SoS to escape/survive tanks, what good is purge if the savage is going to one shot you like you said. There is a reason SoS was re-worked in a later patch as well as given to all realms. You said "you NEED" physical defense or BoF for RA's but hib does not get BoF so they cannot make caster groups? you helped prove my point on how albions caster group is not that hard. SoS should win you a fight every 30 min at the minimum. Semi-Quit~ WTB QoL
Exde - Bard Exdez - Enchanter Exdee - Druid RIP <Booted> |
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That's what I'm saying too. What do you disagree? I'm not trying to make anything sound harder than it is.
I was comparing mid pugs vs alb pugs and not sure what you are trying to prove by comparing hib to alb now. Hib pugs are harder to build and play than mid pugs too if you wanna hear it. Oh btw, yes. On 1.65 hib caster groups are ****** compared to alb caster groups. Without PD, SoS, BoF only masochists would do that. |
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The biggest flaw in this setup has, is the Tether RA from mentalists.
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It's not like charge is a factor here. |
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