Hello everyone,

I just read /changelog and am worried about the current changes. First of all I am an Uthgard-Player, and I played in all Realms. I know the RvR Situation in Emain and in Braemar. I have fully equiped (SC) and high RR Chars in Emain, Wilton, and Braemar (Realm Midgard). I also have some Braemarchars in Albion with no-SC / drop-equip.
So believe me when I say: I know the RvR Situation = )

Latly I am only playing in Braemar. This is simply I dont have the time to play in Emain. I like the "Instant-Action" in Braemar, I dont need equip or RR to have my fun there. Just log in play a couple of hours and log off. Its not like emain: Getting a perfect groupsetup, Roaming all Spots, endless keepsieges,... I just dont feel like wasting my time for that.

I already had some little chat with Sethor about that in IRC. Let me summarize it abit:

Why close BGs for Twinks:

- BGs should only be a battleground for low levels to raise till 50
- Main-goal is RvR with level 50 (Server Policy)
- What about all the beginners? Dont they just get pwned by all the twinks with high RR and SC? That doesnt sound fair.
- We need more people in Emain!


At first glance this seems very convincing and some of us might agree.
But let us have a second glance:

Approximatly 1Year ago Braemar was introduced as Battelground for level 1-30. Back then there were no RR-Restrictions and no /xp-off /rp-off. Alot people had there Twinks there fully equiped and SCed. So how did they stayed in Braemar? Well there was a famous Bridge and people just jumped to death to get rid of the XP in order to stay Braemar.
I remember even some Master-Soldiers and RR2.X Twinks there.

Of course this had some consequences:
- Braemar was restricted to RR2 (Cap)
- The commands /xp-off and /rp-off had been coded and implemented

We can ask why ? Why did the staff coded/implemented XP-off and RP-off with his precious time? The same precious time that is needed to implement new RAs and Bugfixes... Doesnt it contradict to the Server-Policy mentioned above? RR2 Cap speaks for itself.

The simply conclusion: Its nothing else then what happens in RL ... the so called lobbiest!

There is a faction of people (f.i. Sethor) that doesnt have fun in Emain anymore. They leveled, RPed and equiped their Chars with devotion. And now ? Emain got boring... No enemies.. ?
So where are all the people ? -> Braemar. So lets close it so we can force em to play Emain again. Instead questionening why they all left Emain and to solve the root of the problem. They decided to demand ( some might even call it whining: P ) changes in BG-System.

What I question is:

Uthgard for me is a DAoC-Server. A place to have fun with a game named DAoC. If playing Braemar means fun. Why not stay there? Those mentioned twinks know the fun they have in Emain. You soon should see the parallels.

Lets us take a look on the "starters get pwned in Braemar by highleveltwinks" topic:

- Sure it makes a difference to have a SC or not. And sure it makes a difference to have a Pots or not.

Since I have some Braemarchars I do know that pots aint that expensive.
Nestor for example has a complete drop-set. I started RvR with level 20 and no SC and no RP. Believe me i had my fun : )
Once you are level 25 and get some RPs you sure* have enough gold to buy potions - if you like. At the moment I have 250+g with Nestor just from RvR. And I buy pots the whole day. My whole Vault is full of em^^.
I can speak at the moment only for Albion and Midgard, but i know that there are alot of helpful players that give away drop-items for free. So every Beginner can have atleast some drop-equip.

Some might argue dropitems vs SC .. no chance. But since i play with drop-items, its a matter of fact that it aint the a big factor to win or loose in Braemar at all!

- Yes starters get usually often killed by experienced players. Experienced meaning experienced in RR and Game-experience. But believe me, cause I have some RR2 twinks as well. It aint the RR2 that kills the starters, its the lack of game-experience. RR2 just gives you some goodies. Thats why the Staff restricetd Braemar to RR2 and not RR3 or RR4...

From my point of view its only the lack of game-experience, that let starters have less fun ( If its true - I have seen beginners that still had fun, Aryel for example. I could mention a whole list of albion starters here. Since I am a Defender of Albion^^).

Ok but dont forget we still have our main-reason: Emain-Boring

Close BG for Twinks -> Only Starters there..
Those will level and fight only vs Starters..
And finally hit level 50 and then BOOM. Fun in emain.
There is a whole bunch of Players. Hehe sound fun : )

But wait a sec. All having full SC (dragondrops etc)?? What is that thing named TS? They have it ?? WTF .. what kinda thing is that. How do you call it ? TWF ?? Yes well you know the enemies are not Starters..

They are SCed, experienced, RPed and worst: They are BORED.
Dont expect mercy:P

So what kinda RvR Experience is that gonna be? Well lets say beginners form a good group (setup - usually they dont ) and lets say they use TS. I bet they wont win in 8vs8 due to the big RR difference.
Maybe they are also unexperienced. Why? They had RvR in BGs ..
Well fighting vs Starters is totally different vs real INC.

I know the phenomena from Wilton: Wilton you usually meet people that have played braemar solo without any RvR-tactic or Group-Play.
The problem is they think it worked in Braemar why not here.. You can imagine the end of the chain.

From my point of view they learn better RvR if played with experienced Twinks in Braemar =) I for myself can list a big deal of Players that now now:

-AL
-Stick&Go
-Prime Target >> Celt << Assist me
-Run! Endurun
-Watercombats
-Why not attack a single add of your casters
-Why not cast dmgshield
..... Got it ?


Now easy to say: They will learn in Emain. How is this supposed to be working ?

High RR group... BOOM. ALL dead.
Ok new Plan. Someone didnt assisted. Please assist this time..
High RR group... BOOM. ALL dead.
Hmm i am sure the tanks assisted. Mayb you caster should run more.
High RR group.. BOOM. ALL dead.
Ok lets change Group-Setup
High RR group.. BOOM. ALL dead.
Damn you suck people. Whats wrong with you?? Didnt i said assist! Again..
High RR group.. BOOM. ALL dead.

I guess you get the point ? You cant learn if you dont have a chance to win:P I met during my emain-life alot of people hitting level50 with no clue of RvR. I wont mention names now. But its a fact and it gonna be worse..

So what kinda fun should that be?

Besides let us reconsider some Braemar arguements:
- no SC vs SC
- no RR vs high RR
- Beginners vs Experienced

Now remember what I described before. The points listed above for Braemar get worse in Emain!!

SC vs Non-Sc: Small Factor in Braemar, but BIG in Emain
no RR vs high RR: Small Factor in Braemar , but BIG in Emain
....



I hopefully have enlighted some of you. My final words:

Why do restrict fun of others for your own fun?
Everyone should have the freedom to choice he favorite RvR-Zone.
This is part of something called "pursuit of happiness" and "Freedom". You might know the words from RL. Shall we all switch off Brains when we start DAoC?

This server is all about Fun. That should be Server-Policy!
Dont censor/close this Topic =)

Greetz
Nes

PS: Take part on the poll

He speaks out my own Thoughts

And thats really how the bunny runs X_x (germanismus ftw°°)

braemar is a battleground and no twinkerground, i hope, u learn the true meaning of an seriously bg.
And yes, i know the rvr situation too
dont think only at ur own needings.
SC in Braemar: The only word i found about that is LOL

BTW please close this thread, it exist already one topic about the same

Avelonian:

Easy to say LOL. But what about bringing some arguements?

PS. Closing? You know a thread can be moved and attached

EDIT: Well avelonian...
On the one hand you talk about not beeing selfish according fun.
On the other hand it means restricitng fun of others? So what to do?

Jrhadden, as far as I know the battlegrounds had been implemented for only
one reason - to enable players to reach a decent realmrank to be able to
compete in higher battlegrounds and finally in EmainMacha.
I tried to explain to you the fragile situation especially concerning freeshards
with a low population. Lets assume a population of 200players which is actualy
the number of logged in players every day.

Every day there is a total of 8-16 players running around in EmainMacha meaning
there are ~4-8%. Please keep in mind that we are talking about the meant
endgame RvR arena!
Every day there is a total of 30-40players running around in Braemar
and most of them are twinks of players with at least 1 lvl50 character.
Thats a total of 15-20% of the whole servers population while it is only a
battleground which was meant to help new players in raising their RR a bit!

It is pretty obvious. At this moment Uthgard is more like a "lvl30 Freeshard"
with the possibility of lvl50chars to farm. At least in my eyes thats an extremely
concerning situation.
About your argument Braemar being a place to learn RvR...you must be kidding.
You will learn nothing in Braemar except running around in random groups
which haven't got a sufficient setup and most of the time not even a healer.
The only thing you can learn in Braemar are raw basics about your character,
but of course not teamplay as long as you don't form something like a group
of players who play together all the time in Braemar which would mean another 8players
wasting time in a lvl30 battleground while Emain stays empty.

DarkAgeofCamelot has never been a fair game. You have got the opportunity
to compete even against our RR6+ group, but the opportunity has to be chosen
which means that you have to sit down on your ass, check the possibilities
of group setups, level eventual needed classes and then go out and test it.
Same about a full SC containing dragondrops and so on. You have got
the opportunity to get this stuff really quick. You just have to figure out a
simple tactic which also is the key to Midgard being able to succesfully kill
the dragon in under 20minutes with just 1-2 groups.

And to be honest. If you want instant action I absolutely don't understand why
you don't just join an instant50 server? Instant action, instant fun...everything
instant.

With regards
Sethor

First of all:

I dont know what Uthgard should favour:

a) Players that do instant action in Braemar but on Uthgard
b) The same player leaving uthgard for having fun on some Instant shard?

I vote for a) cause i like to play with some of this community.

What about th rest of your arguements?

- Braemar no way to learn Rvr?

Well I can only tell you: I can name you a great number of people that learned alot about RvR in Braemar while teaming with experienced players. This is matter of facts! Sure you dont have the so called "perfect-setups", but usually you cant exspect em in Emain as well.
Why not level something that fits better in that "perfect-setup"?
Dear Sethor some people just simply dont have the time. This is a fact and cant be argued. As you know, I know how it works in midgard.

- Low-Pop Server: People needed in emain.

There nothing to say against, except maybe FUN.
But lets take one of your arguements. You already mentioned it. Low-Pop server needs other rules. It's not like live, where a beginner can get his RPs from big Zerg^^. We both have seen Zergfights in emain. And you usually know the ending.

It starts this way:
equal vs equal.. dont work -> one team does upgrades (exchange member, add players )
team1 > team2 almost balanced. But Team1 outnumbered Team2
-> Team 2 gehts upgrades...
Again unbalance..

This continues till:
a) Fun is gone
b) critical server-player-number reached -> no chance for balance -> end of RvR

My question: Wouldnt it better if the players stay in balanced RvR?
What about the other level50s? Booooring... Why not go BG?
See.. Somehow BGs can also be "balancing" and a good cure vs "boring".

Greetz
Nes

Well, on the one hand it obviously isnt good if players leave, but on the
other hand it is absolutely devastating if you accept players making their
own little shard in a shard leading into the destruction of the original freeshard!

And please believe me. You don't learn anything in Braemar except basic
RvR combat with your class. Behaviour in groups is a totally different thing.
And to be honest...are players not able to learn further things in Wilton, Thidranki
and EmainMacha?

About balance. I really hat this word by now. Especially in terms of RvR you
can not speak about balance or unbalance...hell this game supposes you to
crush your realms enemies meaning you have to be the "unbalanced" one by
gathering more combatants - get a clue? ^^

There is no such thing like balanced RvR. You are talking about guildwars or
other mmorpgs running instanced 8vs8 or 16vs16 battlegrounds!

Frankly, if more people like you came to Emain and showed such an enduring
rvr-participation like in Braemar we all would have much more fun!
Maybe we should implement a new command ... /downlevel 30


With regards
Sethor

BG's are good but they are not meant for Twinks of 50ths.

Blue I do know your are part of staff, so you dont need to bring any arguements at all. And before you get me wrong - I am grateful for the work you do/did.

But I am curious. Why did you Coded /xpoff and /rpoff? And what exactly motivated you to remove it ? Isnt it the lobbiest thinga I mentioned before?

Dear Sethor

we played alot together back then. And we both know most fun doesnt come out from Zerging. Usually this is always the end* of any RvR. So please dont tell me:

Its Realm vs Realm and you have to crush the enemies. Its about Fun you know ; )

And again "Learning Bg": Sure you will learn alot, if experienced players do have the patience to teach. People who met me in Albion will confirm you, i try my best.

Greetz
Nes

Braemar isnt really educative, my blood boils when new players come to emain and all the time cast dmg shield on my over and over even when i tell them to not do this, also i hate "breamer leraning of rvr" - run with everything you got, include stealthers in grps .. and i know guys who come to emain, get 50 and still think stealther is a grp char and always when they log they ask for grp or try create one ...

Why not BG?Daoc have 50lvls not 30 .... , same about RR, i worked hard played a lot in emain and i got high rr which give my advantage against players who arent so acive in emain ... in breamar - rr2 doesnt really give advantage ....

Also as already memntioned , we need poeple in emain .. thats just pathetic that i run around emain at 7pm for an hour and cant find any enemy .. and i type /who .. 200 ppl where the hell are they?

jrhadden wrote:But I am curious. Why did you Coded /xpoff and /rpoff? And what exactly motivated you to remove it ? Isnt it the lobbiest thinga I mentioned before?

As far as I remember I did not code these commands. /xpoff is still useful else player will just jump from bridges or whatever, it makes no difference. The /rpoff command is removed for a longer time now. Btw to code such commands it takes not longer than one hour. Even less I guess.

And just dont ask "What motivated 'you'". We are a staff that makes decisions. Not me.

hm...in my opinion this BG change is very senseful...

There are many voices against it, because emain is no fun. I think that its correct. But it will change.
When there are more people in emain, there will be more action; maybe like in braemar. There might be some groups, which are stronger then others, but their chances to win is very small, when there are dozens of groups at a time. There will be longer RvR in emain, more different (and bigger hopefully^^) groups of each realm trying to conquer the keeps.

One problem could be the current size of emain...as soon as the flood of bg chars comes to emain there won´t be enough space.

I played in the BG´s too...the higher the lvl range was, the more profesional the players became. In braemar there was always chaos...thidranki was much more difficult, because the group setup was better.

The best way to learn playing is Emain. There will be all classes of players...learning and expirienced ones. And as soon as there are much more players, there won´t be a continious domination of single groups.

And the matter about low RR vs. High RR: When there are many enemys, there are many rps...each player including low rr has a good chance to get rps very fast.

There will be alot of zerg in emain...but think about it...its kind of normal to outpower the enemy to get a bonus and the rps. It has always been on live and it will be on any other rvr shard with enough players. Its the intention of this game...each realm fights the other...and not each group some other group.

Well... I see the point in both sides arguments.

What I seriously dislike is, if someone tells me how to have fun. By forcing me into Emain for example - simply because he is bored there. I go there from time to time, but not because Sethor wants me to.

Using his eloquence, he and a couple of others try driving this shard into the direction they like. The problem is, it is not the direction that I like for myself. So I refuse getting my fun limited in favor of theirs. Maybe it is not a good indicator, but look at the figures which concept is more successful: Emain or Braemar.

Trust me: you will never MAKE me go into Emain. Neither as reinforcement for your case, nor as cannonfodder for your group. I go there when/if I have fun there and when/if I have the time to go there.

I am easy on capping RP in the battlegrounds. I will just level another toon to 25 and start going to Braemar. I will hate the time that I waste for that, but anyway.

Next step would be to restrict other toons but the mains for the battlegrounds. I have not heard that request from anyone yet, but I guess its just a matter of time.

And to the staff: I guess I have proved my appreciation for this server and your work, so please do not get me wrong now. If Sethor drives this server into a direction that does not allow me to have fun here anymore, I will not simply comply. I will just do something else and let my account rot - which might bother you or not (probably not).

It is great fun for me still, and I enjoy the community and my time here. But please do not take the freedom of choice from us too much. You might end up as a Sethor-shard with some l33t kewl rul0rz that bore each other to death.

You made great decisions in the past that discouraged many wtfpwn-kiddies to stay here. Keep the direction please. You are doing great.

@Sethor: my apologies for using you as the example in a negative context in my post. I see you as a rolemodel for the people with your position in this argument, and not seeing you as THE bad guy here. Please take it more as a compliment, ok?

Just my two coppers
Shy

Why does the staff waste it's "precious" time on restrictions rather than implementing RAs?
I think you're old and intelligent enough to guess why. Have you ever had
the problem of having two tasks? One task is much easier and done in
much less time. The other one is a very exhausting work taking you much
time. Now you can guess which one you'd solve first. And please leave
these satiric advices to the staff out when you write a post. Hopefully Blue
doesn't read this because he'd go red in front of his PC when somebody
wants to give him an advice so simple and simply stupid.


And perhaps you misunderstood Nestral. It's not about the new Players
getting ganked by the good players. That's not why we changed it. It's
simply because peoples minds, and you described it very right, has gotten
too stuck on breamar. You said it's more fun to play in braemar because
it's easier to right away log in and stay there with getting at least 3-4 kills
per death. In emain this wouldn't be so and that's why you don't log emain
anymore. And I can tell you why: These "Newbies", you told us indirectly,
that made you such fun to kill would stay in the battleground forever. Or at
least a very long amount of time. Some people are just too afraid of
leveling to level 50. They ask the Staff "hey, i heared there was no rvr in
Wilton and no RvR in thid / emain aswell, so would you mind me staying
here in braemar?" And ofcourse we do. If all of the senior players here on
uthgard showed the new ones that there is NO RvR in emain. And logging
braemar makes much more sense since you don't "waste your time".
People don't have to wonder why emain is dead. The new reinforcements
stay, thanks to them, in the lowlevel BGs. Why? Because they rule there!
Now that isn't something to thank the players for so now the staff has to
enable their promise that the main endgame content takes place in emain
rather than in lowlevel BG's.


Nestral you told us that:

jrhadden wrote: "From my point of view its only the lack of game-experience, that let starters have less fun"

But BGs are for starters aren't they? That's the first RvR they can do and
there they get ganked by much more experienced players. That's not a
very good first impression of RvR is it? In the extreme these people would
either end playing daoc or making PvM all day long. Moreover is it the goal
of this game to make your level 50 char and get the experience to finally
play in braemar and gank all the others because you're the most skilled
one? I'd say it's more the other way around. Getting a bit experience in
RvR and some RP to go on playing in emain.

jrhadden wrote:But wait a sec. All having full SC (dragondrops etc)?? What is that thing named TS? They have it ?? WTF .. what kinda thing is that. How do you call it ? TWF ?? Yes well you know the enemies are not Starters..

They are SCed, experienced, RPed and worst: They are BORED.
Dont expect mercy:P

Well you're a guy that can handle percentages aren't you? How big is the
percentage of meeting skilled players in emain when there are no new
players? And what's more important, how big will it be when all the new
ones finally get their asses out of the BGs.


In the end emain will be like the BGs. New ones and some skilled playing
against eachother. And a newbe can also hit a newbe in emain. It's not that
they all get the pro players all the time in emain. Whereas in the BGs the
space isn't enough to avoid skilled players. Everybody has to earn much
rxperience playing in RvR, but it's not the job of the BGs giving like 90% of
this experience.


You should also know that it's not we're living in the stone age anymore (at
least most of us don't) and TS is available over the, what's this thing
again? ahh yes eanturnet. And what's this stuff called again? Ah yeah
dawnlouding..


Most of the players here possess this thingy called internet and with THIS
you have the might of downloading TS. Who's too smart for that...well
spare me that.




Your arguments why people shouldn't go to emain anymore are not clear
to me.


Ofc there are High RR groups
Ofc there are many skilled players
Ofc there will be many deaths for newbies

But, OFCOURSE there IS FUN for new players in emain. Don't judge people
like they all were like you. For most the experience in RvR is such fun and
playing with others aswell that they think big of emain. What won't help
them is your flaming against emain all day long. People like you are the
main reason why YOU yourself don't want to go to emain anymore. You
make new ones think that emain is totally boring. That's why you don't
want to log because there are no easy enemys. Don't you see this is a
vicious circle?



my final words will be.
I don't want to argue again over this topic.
"Everyone should have the freedom to choice he favorite RvR-Zone?" no not since you're playing here and Uthgard is lvl 50 RvR. It has
been decided and so will it be amen.