^ was about to write the same but fear the flame
Yea it should be enough to use endupots once you know an enemy is about to engage your group.
Unless you say 2.5platin waste is worth that advantage.

Borabora wrote:LOL. Why would you try to keep endu potions up all the time?
I really like those paper daoc trolls

All you need is 20 endu reg and 20 instant endu to play 15-20 fights. You will hardly have more "clean" fights in one evening.
Run a Paladin? Hell no.
qed

Well lets play with the idea you only pop endo regen on inc and u run minstrel in the group at expense of paladin ( so u have decent speed to not loose mezz by default ).

One fight 2 endo regen pots and 1x restore endo.

Thats a 3 min long fight.

15 fights x evening

30 endo regen pots and 15 end restore pots

thats 45 pots used (can only carry 40 at a time with nothing else in inv)

45x8 = 360 pots

The minstrel consumes lots of endo and power with dds and stuns and will need to carry power pots also.

The amount of endo pots when counting it this low, is still excessive and nobody will be able to keep this up.

Add to that list the times you will need to pop endo regen before inc to chase down, or the times you pop endo regen to run away from something, or the times you pop endo regen to get from A to B quickly. Keeps adding up.

Bottom line is that very few groups ran without paladin for the most obvious of reasons, it was not practical.

If minstrel had endo regen song people would run minstrels. They don't so you can't afford one, quite literally.

so ca 135g per rvr day per person. noone says its not a pain, but well it is feasable for everyone.
if ppl are not willing to go for that extra mile, and i understand if ppl are not, i d say they are better of with playing hib or mid.

GreenP wrote:^ was about to write the same but fear the flame
Yea it should be enough to use endupots once you know an enemy is about to engage your group.
Unless you say 2.5platin waste is worth that advantage.

No need to flame eachother.

People have different views on things, always.

But some ideas seem to come from modern daoc 9/9 endo regen 3 + lw2 was really nice and worked OK without paladins. But the amount of endo you consume is a lot and you needed endo restore pots as well, especially with 42 shield on merc.

One example is the times we experimented replacing paladin with armsman as the peeler. Our problem was the armsman ran out of endo from slam duty in the defensive line very fast and couldnt actually do his job as guard bot and slammer.

The thing is: Everytime your Paladin is out of range or mezzed, you dont have endu at all. If groups rely on their Paladin and do not prepare, they will end up having no endu in like 80% of the fight. If they do prepare - they will end up with almost the same potion usage than in a competitive group without a Paladin.

I mean, your obvsly a math pro. And of course most of the pick up or guild groups will run a Pala because the potion mgmt is just too painful (and expensive).

But still: You will rarely find a competitive group with a Paladin

Btw these are not "ideas". We have been playing Daoc since 2001 and played alb hybrid groups with no Paladin on different freeshards (including Uthgard) already. And we are currently running on Uthgard 2.0 aswell - w/o Paladin. So no "pure theory" from my side

when i run in pugs, paladins constantly screw up my endu managment.
you take a endu3 pot out of pala range, pala gets in your range and overwrites your endu. then he is gone again and you ve to take another potion
I usually take more potions with pala than without
I play arms myself, endu can be an issue and for sure perma endu5 as other realms would be nice, but endu3 also does the job.
so i d rather they the pala harms more than he helps at least for tanks.

pweet wrote:so ca 135g per rvr day per person. noone says its not a pain, but well it is feasable for everyone.
if ppl are not willing to go for that extra mile, and i understand if ppl are not, i d say they are better of with playing hib or mid.

For 30 regen endo and 15 restore endo

Its ~150 gold that gives you 60 mins of effective regen end 3.

I think thats counted very low though, add to that the time it takes to craft it, and if you buy on housing you will be subject to prices of 1.5x material cost.

Well people will run whatever works for them, but I think the whole "Pala hell no" argument is something ppl cling to since it works well in modern daoc due to 5 min dur draughts.

I would rather kill myself having to play the game with 1x quickbar, no end status from grp window and have to drag 45 pots to the quickbar 3-9 to use...

pweet wrote:when i run in pugs, paladins constantly screw up my endu managment.
you take a endu3 pot out of pala range, pala gets in your range and overwrites your endu. then he is gone again and you ve to take another potion
I usually take more potions with pala than without
I play arms myself, endu can be an issue and for sure perma endu5 as other realms would be nice, but endu3 also does the job.
so i d rather they the pala harms more than he helps at least for tanks.

Regen 3 pot is not supposed to be over written by chants.

On Uthgard 1 it did not. Report as bug if that is the case on Uthgard 2.0 ( I have not tested this ).

i just checked, its true it doesnt overwrite it good to know next fight
so see my last post as obsolete

oLd-Sneakers wrote:
Well lets play with the idea you only pop endo regen on inc and u run minstrel in the group at expense of paladin ( so u have decent speed to not loose mezz by default ).

hello bolt range mezz on a saracen.

falscheneun wrote:

oLd-Sneakers wrote:
Well lets play with the idea you only pop endo regen on inc and u run minstrel in the group at expense of paladin ( so u have decent speed to not loose mezz by default ).

hello bolt range mezz on a saracen.

What I meant is that speed play a big part in positioning for a mezz, or moving your grp in and out of mezz range before you commit to a fight. Hence you could swap pala for minstrel if you can live with the regen 3 pots.

Agree that two groups closing in a line cast speed and mezz range will be what determines who will win the mezz (interrupts and amnesia excluded)

Borabora wrote:But still: You will rarely find a competitive group with a Paladin

2 of the most successful Alb groups in pre-toa, Apocalypse Dudes and Public Enemies, both ran paladins. So this statement is plain wrong.
And before we go to discuss times have changed and people know things now that they didn't do back then, I will stand by the statement that you need a paladin.

No paladin (and no friar obviously) means you'll get 3shot by any chanter. It's suicide. You're all focused talking just about the endurance factor, that you're forgetting they're also there for the resistances.

Having determination on your Arms is handy and all, but it does not substitute the utility a pala brings.

I'll stick to my core: 2 clerics, sorc, theurg, minstrel, pala, 2 mercs. Speed 6 inc on a melee group is essential. And you really want SoS against good mid groups.

Let's just agree to disagree

Gimp old times.i also remember those

Selenus wrote:

Borabora wrote:But still: You will rarely find a competitive group with a Paladin

2 of the most successful Alb groups in pre-toa, Apocalypse Dudes and Public Enemies, both ran paladins. So this statement is plain wrong.
And before we go to discuss times have changed and people know things now that they didn't do back then, I will stand by the statement that you need a paladin.

No paladin (and no friar obviously) means you'll get 3shot by any chanter. It's suicide. You're all focused talking just about the endurance factor, that you're forgetting they're also there for the resistances.

Having determination on your Arms is handy and all, but it does not substitute the utility a pala brings.

I'll stick to my core: 2 clerics, sorc, theurg, minstrel, pala, 2 mercs. Speed 6 inc on a melee group is essential. And you really want SoS against good mid groups.

Let's just agree to disagree

Times have changed and people know things now that they didn't do back then.

Also I think you're overly afraid of chanters, they're not 3 shotting anyone here even with no friar or paladin for resists. If anything its the chanter getting 3 shot by a tank because the current meta favors tank groups. The only hib groups that ran 8v8 on beta quit because their casters had trouble dropping anything, one of them left and the other rolled tanks instead.

I get it, who wants to make a bunch of pots everyday? But they only cost about 2g to make, if everyone stocks up before rvr and restocks once or twice in housing during the evening its only a minor burden. Having to carry a paladin is no less frustrating.