Appreciate the responses, thinking that a light/mana eld would be better in that support caster position, but we will need mana chanters @ 50 to get PvE and templates done, so may have to wiggle one in there somehow/someway

i agree that both tank groups should be running 1 nearsight caster, its way too strong this patch to ignore even against only healers.
but at the end of the day, mids will have that celerity advantage. there no ignoring it, it will be used on inc unless you get the hit and can stop the aug from getting it off.

Falken wrote:Appreciate the responses, thinking that a light/mana eld would be better in that support caster position, but we will need mana chanters @ 50 to get PvE and templates done, so may have to wiggle one in there somehow/someway

It will be hard to wiggle a mana chanter in without going for a caster setup. Unless you went for some weird hybrid grp. Lets take a look at some options.

Each example will include, by default; 2x Druid, Bard and Hero.

Tank option: BM,BM,BM/Hero,Light Eld
Caster option: Mana Ench,Light Eld, Light Ment, BM/Hero
Weird hybrid: Mana Ench,Light Eld, BM, BM/Hero

Imo the hyrbid could work but the chanter (other than pet usage and to a lesser extent debuffing) will be doing absolutely nothing whilst the eld is taking care of other duties like NS, Dis etc.

It's all paper daoc at the end of the day though. You could run some weird sh*t and still make it work if you know what you're doing. . .

Ohai wrote:i agree that both tank groups should be running 1 nearsight caster, its way too strong this patch to ignore even against only healers.
but at the end of the day, mids will have that celerity advantage. there no ignoring it, it will be used on inc unless you get the hit and can stop the aug from getting it off.

Thanks for the constructive response! Yeah, I do think that NS is useful in all groups and is hard to ignore whether tank or caster setup. The haste is an issue, but we will just have to learn to deal with it and play around it.

why is warden rarely considered? is pbt and resists really not that useful vs a 2nd druid?

Klade wrote:why is warden rarely considered? is pbt and resists really not that useful vs a 2nd druid?

druid = group purge + instas. warden = garbage healer no instas, and no shield spec this patch to even use as peels.

I'm also not a massive fan on wardens at this patch level. Druid heals are way better as is their utility spells. And wardens melee is on par with scratching your nuts mid fight. Pbt is nice but very far from necessary. With the right CC and General control of each fight it won't be necessary. And the extra resists don't make up for the lack of everything else. I'd much rather take more utility or more dps than a warden.

Wardens, since 1.65, have been given some HUGE buffs like shield, cele and decent heals on live. I'd imagine this was to keep the class in tune with more desirables.


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No cure disease and no determination makes warden obsolete.

DDDB (W/B/Eld) H + 2x melee

Warden brings PBT DA TWF cc-resists heals and can be a snare pet when not cc'ed. It is a weak force multiplier ..

falscheneun and barto22 I have to ask, do you have any experience actually running these setups, or are you just playing paper daoc?

I have run the setups in question extensively.

solo eld, solo rm, full hib tank, full mid tank.

faceless, group savagery, stout. Search the videos on youtube.

I know what works and what doesn't, from actually playing the setups.

Saying an eld will survive just because you focus on peeling tanks is PAPER DAOC. It's not reality. Part of a Warrior's job in a mid group is to make sure peel tank(s) from the other realms are dealt with so your own offensive tanks are freed up to do their job. Also not even mentioning a healer you know...casting a mez on your tanks on inc.

That's what casters are on this patch, you need X Y and Z to go your way and THEN they become ok in a group. You need a good hit, you need the warrior to not do his job, you need the healers to not get a mez and you need the rest of your group to not be retarded, and you need no one else from the mid group to be free to interrupt the eld and then you can realistically say, ya my solo eld will be free in the back to...cast some disease (lol).

If all you have is paper daoc, you should take a step back and realize that is not a substitute for experience.

solo NS caster is good vs caster groups, but it is at a disadvantage vs full tank group.

Why the ****** do you think everyone is QQing about how broken the mid tanker is in this beta? I'll give you a hint, it's not because it loses to a solo eld.

Top wrote:falscheneun and barto22 I have to ask, do you have any experience actually running these setups, or are you just playing paper daoc?

I have run the setups in question extensively.

solo eld, solo rm, full hib tank, full mid tank.

faceless, group savagery, stout. Search the videos on youtube.

I know what works and what doesn't, from actually playing the setups.

Saying an eld will survive just because you focus on peeling tanks is PAPER DAOC. It's not reality. Part of a Warrior's job in a mid group is to make sure peel tank(s) from the other realms are dealt with so your own offensive tanks are freed up to do their job. Also not even mentioning a healer you know...casting a mez on your tanks on inc.

That's what casters are on this patch, you need X Y and Z to go your way and THEN they become ok in a group. You need a good hit, you need the warrior to not do his job, you need the healers to not get a mez and you need the rest of your group to not be retarded, and you need no one else from the mid group to be free to interrupt the eld and then you can realistically say, ya my solo eld will be free in the back to...cast some disease (lol).

If all you have is paper daoc, you should take a step back and realize that is not a substitute for experience.

solo NS caster is good vs caster groups, but it is at a disadvantage vs full tank group.

Why the ****** do you think everyone is QQing about how broken the mid tanker is in this beta? I'll give you a hint, it's not because it loses to a solo eld.

i really dont care which groups you played in. yes i played both setups. you act like NS is only good when facing caster-heavy groups, which is nonsense. even though elds ability to disease + snare incoming tanks is pretty strong, id say supp RM has a slight utility advantage due to having red ns AND root on one toon. if you NS root an enemy supporter who doesnt happen to have purge ready, theyre fcked.

of course, if you want to play the solo caster to be DPS pushing in too deep youll struggle. the caster should be played as a supporter/ruptbot only trying to kill overextenders together with hero/warrior.

if the casters in your group werent able to prekite, well... see my post above.

Hero, champ, BM, BM, druid, druid , bard , eld


orrrr

Hero, champ, bm, druid , druid , bard, bard, eld.

gogo

I agree 100% with Top.

Top wrote:falscheneun and barto22 I have to ask, do you have any experience actually running these setups, or are you just playing paper daoc?

I have run the setups in question extensively.

solo eld, solo rm, full hib tank, full mid tank.

faceless, group savagery, stout. Search the videos on youtube.

I know what works and what doesn't, from actually playing the setups.

Saying an eld will survive just because you focus on peeling tanks is PAPER DAOC. It's not reality. Part of a Warrior's job in a mid group is to make sure peel tank(s) from the other realms are dealt with so your own offensive tanks are freed up to do their job. Also not even mentioning a healer you know...casting a mez on your tanks on inc.

That's what casters are on this patch, you need X Y and Z to go your way and THEN they become ok in a group. You need a good hit, you need the warrior to not do his job, you need the healers to not get a mez and you need the rest of your group to not be retarded, and you need no one else from the mid group to be free to interrupt the eld and then you can realistically say, ya my solo eld will be free in the back to...cast some disease (lol).

If all you have is paper daoc, you should take a step back and realize that is not a substitute for experience.

solo NS caster is good vs caster groups, but it is at a disadvantage vs full tank group.

Why the ****** do you think everyone is QQing about how broken the mid tanker is in this beta? I'll give you a hint, it's not because it loses to a solo eld.

This.

Top wrote:falscheneun and barto22 I have to ask, do you have any experience actually running these setups, or are you just playing paper daoc?

I have run the setups in question extensively.

solo eld, solo rm, full hib tank, full mid tank.

faceless, group savagery, stout. Search the videos on youtube.

I know what works and what doesn't, from actually playing the setups.

Saying an eld will survive just because you focus on peeling tanks is PAPER DAOC. It's not reality. Part of a Warrior's job in a mid group is to make sure peel tank(s) from the other realms are dealt with so your own offensive tanks are freed up to do their job. Also not even mentioning a healer you know...casting a mez on your tanks on inc.

That's what casters are on this patch, you need X Y and Z to go your way and THEN they become ok in a group. You need a good hit, you need the warrior to not do his job, you need the healers to not get a mez and you need the rest of your group to not be retarded, and you need no one else from the mid group to be free to interrupt the eld and then you can realistically say, ya my solo eld will be free in the back to...cast some disease (lol).

If all you have is paper daoc, you should take a step back and realize that is not a substitute for experience.

solo NS caster is good vs caster groups, but it is at a disadvantage vs full tank group.

Why the ****** do you think everyone is QQing about how broken the mid tanker is in this beta? I'll give you a hint, it's not because it loses to a solo eld.

Yes I've played a variety of setups over the years.

No point in playing the 'if' game here. Sometimes things will go your way and sometimes they won't. The best you can do is utilise everything you have available. You mention the healer casting mez on inc, but of course you have forgotten about the bard and the Eld casting on inc too. Like I said, the 'if' game is stupid. If you win mez then the balance tips in your favour from the start but lets not play that game.

I can't see how you need other things to fall into place before a caster becomes OK. Watch mid tank over extend to kill a solo caster only to be killed when their support is CC'd or too far away. It's a joke if you think that all an elds utility is dwarfed by the mere fact he wears cloth armour. It's not clear what you think the rest of the hib group will be doing while the tank train chases the caster.. Standing watching and scratching butt?

Also, solo caster vs caster groups in my opinion is harder than facing tank groups. You have to worry about nearsight from both realms, not to mention pets especially theurgist. It looks like you haven't actually played this setup at all. You've dismissed it before you can actually see how powerful it is.

I think the QQing is coming because hibs and albs are struggling to get there set groups. Mids have leveled as an RvR setup, whereas hibs and albs cannot. With no respec stones its stupid to have high level casters that cant respec to their desired spec. Just stuck with enchanters and mana mentalists on hib for example.

You need to think about what you are saying here, because it looks to me like you are saying that this whole patch level is a failure if people play midgard.. which of course its not.