Ensley03 wrote:VP is a troll RA for people who do nothing but zerg surf and keep defense, which is perfectly fine

So, possibly the majority of the player base?

zerkz wrote:

Ensley03 wrote:VP is a troll RA for people who do nothing but zerg surf and keep defense, which is perfectly fine

So, possibly the majority of the player base?

Of course, which like I said is fine. The argument here was Wizard usefulness in 8v8, and the short answer is they are not useful.

Ensley is quite right, for what he said. If you intend to arbitrarily limit yourself to what is essentially a form of group dueling, Wizzy isn't for you.

If you like large scale rvr, and plan to join a large guild that focuses on objective oriented rvr or runs multiple raid groups, wizzies have their place. Even earth wizzies are good at something: sieges, due to having Alb's premiere ground-targetted AOE. They (over)specialize in hitting groups through walls and doors. That's about all they're good at, really, but it's a pretty big deal when the enemy's at the gate. Don't expect to kill any group solo with it, though. It's not super high damage.

On the other hand, if PBAOE's work through walls and doors in 2.0, Ice will likely be a stronger choice for sieges.

Earth wiz do still have a powerful bolt and interesting abilities (aoe snare/root and DoT). I actually played an earth wiz on live and enjoyed it a lot. It's without a doubt the weakest spec, but it still has some very cool toys.

elrim208 wrote:Earth wiz do still have a powerful bolt and interesting abilities (aoe snare/root and DoT). I actually played an earth wiz on live and enjoyed it a lot. It's without a doubt the weakest spec, but it still has some very cool toys.

"interesting abilities". sure, earth wizzies have some super weird niche toys..and if time is not an issue, you might want to level one just for keep defense but lets be honest, wizards in general are not very....good.

icespec is one-dimensional and pales in comparison to SM and especially eld.
firespec even moreso...raw damage. nothing else. at least 1 strong and 1 meh bolt for keep defense which you can use approximately 50% of the time because you WILL be NS's.
earthspec is....something weird inbetweenish with unique tools that are useless 98% of the time and awkward to use (GTAoE)

dont get me wrong, ill always have a soft spot for wizards and im really trying to withstand the temptation to make one myself when uthgard finally releases, but long story short: they are garbage and only worked back in 1983 because people didnt know how the ****** to play this game. sadly.

Nobody complained about "an animist", they complained about 20 animists.

lordgriffon wrote:random senseless rambling

murrican, amirite?

but in all honesty..
i have played both, ani and yes, even earth wiz at some point and i found it way less weird to place shrooms all over the place and watching the fun unfold than setting a new target for every goddamn nuke when using it outside a siege scenario. but maybe thats just me.
also: what exactly is your point?

hazelhimself wrote:

elrim208 wrote:icespec is one-dimensional and pales in comparison to SM and especially eld.

i kindly ask for further explanation.

Shinyuka wrote:

hazelhimself wrote:

elrim208 wrote:icespec is one-dimensional and pales in comparison to SM and especially eld.

i kindly ask for further explanation.

sure, brother.
Ice is a pve spec. the aoe debuff works quite well there. in pvp the spec just has no advantage whatsoever when compared to SM and eld. lets compare the three classes important abilities, shall we?

Icewiz:
- stong pbaoe
- a debuff nuke with long casttime and low damage (which you could follow up with a no-variance baseline nuke...but the debuff is only 10% so even a non-debuffed specnuke hits way harder...and im not even talking about mana here.)
- an aoe debuff nuke, again with long casttime
- a snare nuke with long casttime and low damage
- single target root

SuppSM:
- strong pbaoe
- glorious intercept pet(worth its weight in ****** gold. trust me.)
- single target root
- super long single target mezz
- massive array of stat debuffs. purple aoe str/con to name one of them! its super good vs. trains.
- DEMEZZ!!

...so as you can see. the only disadvantage SM has vs. icewizz is the fact that a SM with high supp has no high single-target nuke-power. but frankly, who gives a ******, because the class offers so much utility in comparison that theres always way more important and effective stuff to do than just raw nuking. Also with Mid having access to AoE stun.....i dont think i have to continue there.

..but wait, theres more!

almighty eld:
probably most elds will be light spec...but split light/moon is also very very effective and offers a crazy amount of tools to work with. so since we are kinda comparing pbaoe classes here, we will assume the eld we are talking about is split spec.

- slightly weaker but still decent pbaoe nuke (lvl 39, 265 delve vs. 331sm/325wiz)
- yellow nearsight! (55%)
- decent emergency aoe mezz
- AoE disease with 350 Radius! pair with...
- yellow str/con aoe debuff to make trains cry. (he also has some other minor single target stat debuffs...but meh.)
- baseline stun vs. those pesky supports with good movement
- no variance baseline nuke, which WILL hit a fully debuffed target always when you are building a bombgrp...since there WILL be enchanters. hits hard.


so as you can see....a wizard has...damage. thats it. the other 2 classes offer stupid good utility all across the board.
this was a very basic analysis.the further you go into detail (like realm dynamics considering special RAs, common group compositions, ...) the weaker a wizard looks.

dont get me wrong. im still super tempted to roll one...but its just sooooo hard to justify.
hope i could help.

i agree on most parts, was just curious.

again the wiz would offer some use in large scale activities... ice spec is no difference there, just alters the form of use.

e.g.: you can unload the highest frontload as an icespec + VP (and yes, ench can have baod.. xD )

Shinyuka wrote:i agree on most parts, was just curious.

again the wiz would offer some use in large scale activities... ice spec is no difference there, just alters the form of use.

e.g.: you can unload the highest frontload as an icespec + VP (and yes, ench can have baod.. xD )

so which parts do you disagree with?

and ofc the frontload is super high and VP will be a very effective rp-farming-tool, especially in the early days with high pop, low average RR, non-perfect temps and relatively high amounts of zerging when properly coordinated with other wizards. still. keep in mind VPs long CD. id still go fire over ice anyday tho and try to snipe some support while praying not to get NSd. if sitting in keeps hurling stuff at people makes you happy, you surely cant go wrong with wiz, especially @ alb...the extremely low utility just always leaves a very bitter aftertaste for me.

So I've read through all the posts on the thread twice and I'm no closer in finding out if it's worth it to make a wizard or not. I had one back on merlin and Wizard's were mighty fun back then pbae group or assist train on bolts both were a blast. Or I could just roll a zerker on mid and left axe my way to victory.

well i agree on the low utility part, there is no doubt about that.. therefore it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to find a slot for him in "competitive" 8vs8.

but you should consider the possibility, that the ppl who ask in a forum if wizards are worth it, MAYBE aren't that much 8vs8 focused. which isn't supposed to be any form of rating.. I mean most ppl seem to be pretty aware that this class wont be very sought after when it comes that particular kind of rvr.

and actually, that is not a problem. as stated quite a few times in this thread, there are other rvr activities, and some of them fit the wizard very well. and although i think you gave a good comparison to other possible pbae chars, i also think you overdramatise here and there (no offense).

The ice wizards base snare nuke is the same as supp rm, with the common support/spec nuke delve, 179. sure, the cast time sux, but other classes have that problem too.. the other specs you were talking about seem a little odd to me (i would do it the other way around, go 48/24 with eld, and split spec - 41/35 or something - with sm), but maybe that is just personal preference.

finally, yea VP has a long CD, but i wouldnt expect to run into large, nicely clumped and mezzed hordes of enemies every 5 minutes - so this should be ok.

olds wrote:So I've read through all the posts on the thread twice and I'm no closer in finding out if it's worth it to make a wizard or not. I had one back on merlin and Wizard's were mighty fun back then pbae group or assist train on bolts both were a blast. Or I could just roll a zerker on mid and left axe my way to victory.

Yes if you're planning on random fun, No if you're planning on organized 8v8

Shinyuka wrote:well i agree on the low utility part, there is no doubt about that.. therefore it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to find a slot for him in "competitive" 8vs8.

but you should consider the possibility, that the ppl who ask in a forum if wizards are worth it, MAYBE aren't that much 8vs8 focused. which isn't supposed to be any form of rating.. I mean most ppl seem to be pretty aware that this class wont be very sought after when it comes that particular kind of rvr.

and actually, that is not a problem. as stated quite a few times in this thread, there are other rvr activities, and some of them fit the wizard very well. and although i think you gave a good comparison to other possible pbae chars, i also think you overdramatise here and there (no offense).

The ice wizards base snare nuke is the same as supp rm, with the common support/spec nuke delve, 179. sure, the cast time sux, but other classes have that problem too.. the other specs you were talking about seem a little odd to me (i would do it the other way around, go 48/24 with eld, and split spec - 41/35 or something - with sm), but maybe that is just personal preference.

finally, yea VP has a long CD, but i wouldnt expect to run into large, nicely clumped and mezzed hordes of enemies every 5 minutes - so this should be ok.

well of course a wizard has its place. its just quite narrow. and it only has it because there are simply no better alternatives on alb side. i agree with your statement that i tend to overdramatise a bit but im just stating my personal view, which is absolutely not even close to 100% objective because im a huge, huge fan of utilitycasters.


the single target nuke thing...well. SM sucks at single target nuking with full pbaoe build, sure. but its WAY easier for a SM to actually use its pbaoe than it is for a wiz. (healer stun, intercept pet)

VP is good. no doubt about it, but imho its still not enough to compensate for the lack of utility.

edit:

Juri wrote:

olds wrote:So I've read through all the posts on the thread twice and I'm no closer in finding out if it's worth it to make a wizard or not. I had one back on merlin and Wizard's were mighty fun back then pbae group or assist train on bolts both were a blast. Or I could just roll a zerker on mid and left axe my way to victory.

Yes if you're planning on random fun, No if you're planning on organized 8v8

absolutely this. just be prepared for some frustration from time to time as wizards ARE easy to shut down by competent players. if you dont mind that...go ahead, son! also...dont go roll a zerk like all the other 1-button-heroes here :p alb needs some mass :>