Lasastard wrote:So you tell me that you want acceptance for casual players, and in the same sentence basically state that you do not accept "elitists"? See the problem?

It is not the responsibility of 8vs8 players to take "casuals" by the hand and show them a good time in RvR. If you really want to play 8vs8, you'll get a shot eventually, that was never the issue. Just because people that are interested in more competitive gameplay don't pick up random people does not explain why Uthgard struggled with establishing some sort of random/zerg culture.

On an average night, you had *maybe* 2 FGs per realm doing 8vs8 (usually less) - that is 48 players, out of SEVENHUNDRED. Where are the other 652?

Hence my wish for the developers to think about how to create a critical mass that can sustain casual RvR. Since we cannot magically increase the player numbers, you need to mitigate lack of players by making the RvR zone smaller (or the travel/down- times shorter, same difference).

I never said anything about not accepting elitists, don't put words in people's mouths. The problem isn't specifically 8 man either, this issue exists in dungeon groups and raids as well. The problem is certain people think the only person needed to make the server successful is themselves, so they start excluding people from groups and raids because the person wanting to join isn't the "right" class or spec. Be hardcore all you want and strive to be the #1 whatever, but don't exclude people from enjoying the game just because the class or spec they chose isn't what you would have chosen. Obviously if you need a healer or tank or you're making a very specific RvR team comp, you can't fill those openings with just ANY class, I understand/accept that. But how does excluding certain players/classes/specs from groups and raids help the server stay populated & healthy? That doesn't draw people into the server it only pushes people out. Like I said, the people who listen to this message aren't the ones we need to be worried about.

This is how it goes
"7/8 Looking for DPS"
...
"DPS Class/Spec LFG"
...
"Should have made a <insert class/spec here>. Sorry"

Now what? Make a different character or Respec just so you have a chance to join groups or accept being forever solo? If you think this is an acceptable way to treat fellow players on a small server then you are a huge part of the problem. It's going to be pretty hard to find 8v8 fights or the numbers for your raid when the majority of the population quits because the game's upper 1% is hostile to everyone that doesn't conform to what the elitists consider "meta". There won't be another Uthgard launch after this, we need to do it right this time and encourage a friendly environment everyone can enjoy rather than a place for only a select few to have fun. Like I said, the people who listen to this aren't the ones we need to be worried about.

ACrispyTaco wrote:This is how it goes
"7/8 Looking for DPS"
...
"DPS Class/Spec LFG"
...
"Should have made a <insert class/spec here>. Sorry"

If you think this is an acceptable way to treat fellow players on a small server then you are a huge part of the problem. It's going to be pretty hard to find 8v8 fights or the numbers for your raid when the majority of the population quits because the game's upper 1% is hostile to everyone that doesn't conform to what the elitists consider "meta". There won't be another Uthgard launch after this, we need to do it right this time and encourage a friendly environment everyone can enjoy rather than a place for only a select few to have fun. Like I said, the people who listen to this aren't the ones we need to be worried about.

ACrispyTaco wrote:Now what? Make a different character or Respec just so you have a chance to join groups or accept being forever solo?

Yep. See, you figured it out yourself. Wasn't that hard after all, was it?

Btw. your constant point of lamenting is team/communityspirit, but by demanding a groupslot for a useless char, for your personal pleasure, you contradict teamwork and consider 7 other people just to carry around your gimp toon.
Maybe it's me but running a groupcompatible specc is more teamspirit than expecting everyone else to treat your smite cleric like the princess you think she is.

you know, even though, i consider myself as crazy as all of you, trolling a forum for imaginary game with imaginary rulesets, with imaginary discussions about leet vs casual players that don't even exist yet, the topic is interesting.

1. your so called, pvers, casuals, i bet, play bigger role in supporting the server financially then so called leets that you think the daoc server should be built for.
2. if we didn't have casual players, we would not have leets either. give me an example of a server that had only leet players and that actually lasted and/or grew in populaton? the answer is: NONE
3. "Even when we look at real life we see many separations in our community, just in our economy there is a name for different people depending on their income. Whether people want to admit it or not DAoC also has names for different types of players." this analogy is beyond me and i think i am above average in IQ.
4. "I've been thinking lately and feel that casual players are just a burden to the server." - this type of mentality is what destroys the server. most whining is done by people who think this very same way.
5. 700 people online with 10% rvring is way better than 70 people online with 40% rvring.

Seksy wrote:This game is not casual by any means and the chances of 8 random people going up against 8 core players on TS is impossible even to kill 1 player. All games have a skill cap and depending on how high it is further separates players, the reason why DAoC is so appealing is because the skill cap is so high, especially when in a FG. DAoC forces you to become better and meet other good players because no one wants to lose whether it be pve or rvr. Even when we look at real life we see many separations in our community, just in our economy there is a name for different people depending on their income. Whether people want to admit it or not DAoC also has names for different types of players.

I've been thinking lately and feel that casual players are just a burden to the server. They don't contribute to RvR 90% of the time and are normally leveling characters, doing PvE farming, or battlegrounds. Even after these players are more then ready to rvr and contribute to the server they still refuse to. The actual truth is that RvR players (or Elite players) are the main reason why DAoC continue to stay strong in our hearts and it's sad that there are so few. On a normal day you would have 700 players online with only a handful of players actually doing RvR.

In conclusion I have always thought that having many casuals and artificially boosting population was a good thing, but now I see it really doesn't matter if the game is casual friendly or not. The server lives through the RvR players and it's best to keep the server competitive, fair, and challenging for those who actually want to do what the game was intended to be made for. The only benefit to having many casual players is always having a pve population that can help new players( rvr focused)to get leveled and geared for rvr.

riad wrote:Yep. See, you figured it out yourself. Wasn't that hard after all, was it?

Btw. your constant point of lamenting is team/communityspirit, but by demanding a groupslot for a useless char, for your personal pleasure, you contradict teamwork and consider 7 other people just to carry around your gimp toon.
Maybe it's me but running a groupcompatible specc is more teamspirit than expecting everyone else to treat your smite cleric like the princess you think she is.

Or lighten up and accept it's just a game. We're all trying to have some fun. You could make the char/spec work in the group. why not run 3 clerics! Omg!

Seksy wrote:This game is not casual by any means and the chances of 8 random people going up against 8 core players on TS is impossible even to kill 1 player. All games have a skill cap and depending on how high it is further separates players, the reason why DAoC is so appealing is because the skill cap is so high, especially when in a FG. DAoC forces you to become better and meet other good players because no one wants to lose whether it be pve or rvr. Even when we look at real life we see many separations in our community, just in our economy there is a name for different people depending on their income. Whether people want to admit it or not DAoC also has names for different types of players.

I've been thinking lately and feel that casual players are just a burden to the server. They don't contribute to RvR 90% of the time and are normally leveling characters, doing PvE farming, or battlegrounds. Even after these players are more then ready to rvr and contribute to the server they still refuse to. The actual truth is that RvR players (or Elite players) are the main reason why DAoC continue to stay strong in our hearts and it's sad that there are so few. On a normal day you would have 700 players online with only a handful of players actually doing RvR.

In conclusion I have always thought that having many casuals and artificially boosting population was a good thing, but now I see it really doesn't matter if the game is casual friendly or not. The server lives through the RvR players and it's best to keep the server competitive, fair, and challenging for those who actually want to do what the game was intended to be made for. The only benefit to having many casual players is always having a pve population that can help new players( rvr focused)to get leveled and geared for rvr.

Sorry, I had to put this in bold...seems you weren't that successfull, what you are describing/wishing for is exactly like a i50 server with only RvR zones.
You implying that all RvR players are Elitists and that PvE is just for (stupid?) casuals or levelling up new Elitists. That is exactly the attitude that stops new players from even trying. Experienced casual players will just shake their head and feel sorry for you.

DAoC PvE is by no means an afterthought like you describe it imho, it has (or at least had back then around SI time) very challenging and rewarding PvE, great lore!, good quests, encouraged grouping... a lot of fun to be had on the (longish) journey to 50. And yes, if you feel so inclined, you could try out another class because the playstile is very different. Or even a different realm to encounter the lore there. RvR is perceived as the main endgame of DAoC and I agree that it is, but it is not the only way to enjoy DAoC after you get to 50.

And the myth that good 8man always walk over a zerg is complete nonsense...yes they have a chance to win (rarely) or to get away (not so rare) but the majority of encounters will go for the zerg in my experience. I am talking about a zerg here ...not 9 players, or 2 FG but at least 3 FG. An 8mans superior cc will usually only cover a fraction of the zerglings and then its just mayhem. I remember all the crying of 8man 'Elitist' (stupid word) groups on IGN boards when their precious 8vs8 get hammered by a zerg...this is the true fun of being a casual zergling

cheers

Nothing gets the forum's juices flowing like a good elitist/casual debate!

Scalado wrote:Nothing gets the forum's juices flowing like a good elitist/casual debate!

Which is why I'd like to urge everyone to stop pointing fingers at who's to blame for something that isn't currently happening on Uthgard. How about a tiny little bit of patience? Just wait and see how it goes.

Fortyseven wrote:

Scalado wrote:Nothing gets the forum's juices flowing like a good elitist/casual debate!

Which is why I'd like to urge everyone to stop pointing fingers at who's to blame for something that isn't currently happening on Uthgard. How about a tiny little bit of patience? Just wait and see how it goes.

Wait...patience? Two years is pretty patient. I think at least. It might not be. But I assume it's just a little patient right? I think it's wrong for people to ****** considering how hard they are working on it, but I think most people have been patient and will continue to be.

That's not what I was referring to. I meant the conversation about what kind of player DAoC is tailored for, who shouldn't play because [insert random reason] and who is a burden on a server that is not currently open to the public.

Fortyseven wrote:That's not what I was referring to. I meant the conversation about what kind of player DAoC is tailored for, who shouldn't play because [insert random reason] and who is a burden on a server that is not currently open to the public.

...so on these forums we should just be patient-sounding drones instead of discussing things close to our hearts?

cheers

Fortyseven wrote:That's not what I was referring to. I meant the conversation about what kind of player DAoC is tailored for, who shouldn't play because [insert random reason] and who is a burden on a server that is not currently open to the public.

Well, I played casually when it was up and it was fine except for the large RVR disparity between regulars and newbies. I don't really care who it is for, I'll play it regardless

Satiah wrote:

riad wrote:Yep. See, you figured it out yourself. Wasn't that hard after all, was it?

Btw. your constant point of lamenting is team/communityspirit, but by demanding a groupslot for a useless char, for your personal pleasure, you contradict teamwork and consider 7 other people just to carry around your gimp toon.
Maybe it's me but running a groupcompatible specc is more teamspirit than expecting everyone else to treat your smite cleric like the princess you think she is.

Or lighten up and accept it's just a game. We're all trying to have some fun. You could make the char/spec work in the group. why not run 3 clerics! Omg!

Y-E-S, you can.

I think the secret for more fun for everyone is to build your groups according to the enemies out. And that is a skill really hard to master.
I often invited "casuals" or "randoms" or we ran strange setups as long as not too strong enemies were out, or not enough of our regular grp or guid on. If you tell them they might have to leave the grp as soon as more of your guild are on, and then kindly ask them to leave (after the current run is finished of course, no instant kick), everyone I invited was grateful und understanding.
And sometimes you even get to know good player that way, so you invite them more often. Which is also an advantage for you, as you get a bigger playerpool to build good groups.
Sometimes you have to build real good groups to be competetive, and a bad setup or player only leads to zero fun for everyone in the group. So to insist on good setup/player is not always what I call elitist behaviour.

What I don't understand and call elitist behavior is this 7 people standing in pk for hours and waiting for their 8 to log in, even if the perfect matching classes spam lfg right next to them for hours. Just to keep your reputation of beeing a real good group and don't lose a fight in an embarrsing way. So what, ****** happens. I never cared for my reputation but only for my fun.

you are very good with computers

holsten-knight wrote:I think the secret for more fun for everyone is to build your groups according to the enemies out. And that is a skill really hard to master.
I often invited "casuals" or "randoms" or we ran strange setups...

/confirmed

I've been rarely blamed about blue specs or yellow endo in Holstens grp Though it was fun anyway.