Removing rvr horse routes will not help bring players closer together

Lilayn wrote:Removing rvr horse routes will not help bring players closer together

Removing Horse routes in RvR isn't going to have as negative an impact as you will think. I would bet that the people who quit from lack of RvR Horse Routes won't come near the number of people who quit because of Elitists being selective on who gets to come for the Raid/Group. The attitude of the community is the biggest driving factor for the success of a game/server. No one will want to play on a server where the upper 1% treats the rest of the server like ****** because of the class/spec your chose.

3 more months of summer

and another grab bag

LOL

you guys are wasting your time arguing about 'the staff should do this' or 'if they do x, y, and z the server will be better'

the staff has always made it clear that they are in charge and make whatever changes they want, even if they make changes that aren't what the community wants. when uthgard 2.0 comes it will be uthgards version of 1.65, not live like 1.65.

ACrispyTaco wrote:

Lilayn wrote:Removing rvr horse routes will not help bring players closer together

Removing Horse routes in RvR isn't going to have as negative an impact as you will think. I would bet that the people who quit from lack of RvR Horse Routes won't come near the number of people who quit because of Elitists being selective on who gets to come for the Raid/Group. The attitude of the community is the biggest driving factor for the success of a game/server. No one will want to play on a server where the upper 1% treats the rest of the server like ****** because of the class/spec your chose.

I wouldn't mind there being a horse route with the requirement that the realm must be holding all keeps except the most forward one (beno, bled, DC, etc)

toaky wrote:you guys are wasting your time arguing about 'the staff should do this' or 'if they do x, y, and z the server will be better'

the staff has always made it clear that they are in charge and make whatever changes they want, even if they make changes that aren't what the community wants. when uthgard 2.0 comes it will be uthgards version of 1.65, not live like 1.65.

By that logic, you are also wasting your time responding to our time wasting.

I see absolutely no reason not to discuss it. A dead forum helps noone and there is presently little else to talk about. It is a sign that people care. Also, sharing opinions can only increase the possible options for staff, even if they take none of them (then no harm done). What staff includes in the end is their business. I believe there were some decisions in the past which were indirectly influenced by player opinion, though.

In adaption of a famous German saying:

Life is not a pony farm, but at least I can pester my parents for one at Christmas.

ACrispyTaco wrote:

Lilayn wrote:Removing rvr horse routes will not help bring players closer together

Removing Horse routes in RvR isn't going to have as negative an impact as you will think. I would bet that the people who quit from lack of RvR Horse Routes won't come near the number of people who quit because of Elitists being selective on who gets to come for the Raid/Group. The attitude of the community is the biggest driving factor for the success of a game/server. No one will want to play on a server where the upper 1% treats the rest of the server like ****** because of the class/spec your chose.

And this is what I believe people hate about TOA and is what hurt Daoc the most. I remember not getting any groups because I didn't have the right FOTM artifacts or for being a cave shaman or Thane and knowing I would probably never get said 'artis' unless I dedicated my night or even weekend, to some boring raid, that if I'm lucky is not camped. A raid likely led by some guy who you probably can't trust he won't just run with my f'n cloudsong. Then I gotta hit the /random jackpot too. It didn't stop me from having my own fun in TOA, learning what I can and can't do with just my warrior and a shambot.

The elitist behavior evolved into perfect 8mans with maxed templates flaming the lvl 47 1L1 realm mate that just "added" their 8v8 (god forbid they get 1L2 off your hard work, who does he think he is anyway your realm mate or something?), and things like zerg warfare was out of the question, because the hardcore claim it was not how DAOC was meant to be played. Except for the feeling that zergs brought way more players to the frontier than any organized exclusive 8v8s ever did. It may have killed rvr for a while when 1 zerg logged off and it was 20 vs 4 or something but that's what camping pk was for. I dare anyone to try to be a known zerg leader today and not severely ****** off the loudest (not the most) voices in the community.

This toxic combination made the casual player or even the hardcore solo player feel like there were 2 version of Daoc. One that everyone had fun doing whatever they wanted with their realm mates and One with a secret code of conduct and special rules as to how not to be the dreaded, play for fun and not only to win, "scrub" (console kiddies love this word as they don't know what it's like to pay money to play 1 round of Street Fighter 2 and scoff at the fact that people would set inclusive rules to ensure everyone got their money's worth ie. no throws, mercy rounds, etc)

The fact that Uthgard is free, will reinforce elitist attitudes as it removes the "people are paying, so let them play how they want to." rebuttal, and those that play the most and are the loudest will have their way over the silent masses sooner or later. The challenge for Uthgard going forward (devs and community) is to change the attitude from exclusive to inclusive to allow all players to enjoy Daoc again for years to come.

Saarn wrote:

ACrispyTaco wrote:

Lilayn wrote:Removing rvr horse routes will not help bring players closer together

Removing Horse routes in RvR isn't going to have as negative an impact as you will think. I would bet that the people who quit from lack of RvR Horse Routes won't come near the number of people who quit because of Elitists being selective on who gets to come for the Raid/Group. The attitude of the community is the biggest driving factor for the success of a game/server. No one will want to play on a server where the upper 1% treats the rest of the server like ****** because of the class/spec your chose.

And this is what I believe people hate about TOA and is what hurt Daoc the most. I remember not getting any groups because I didn't have the right FOTM artifacts or for being a cave shaman or Thane and knowing I would probably never get said 'artis' unless I dedicated my night or even weekend, to some boring raid, that if I'm lucky is not camped. A raid likely led by some guy who you probably can't trust he won't just run with my f'n cloudsong. Then I gotta hit the /random jackpot too. It didn't stop me from having my own fun in TOA, learning what I can and can't do with just my warrior and a shambot.

The elitist behavior evolved into perfect 8mans with maxed templates flaming the lvl 47 1L1 realm mate that just "added" their 8v8 (god forbid they get 1L2 off your hard work, who does he think he is anyway your realm mate or something?), and things like zerg warfare was out of the question, because the hardcore claim it was not how DAOC was meant to be played. Except for the feeling that zergs brought way more players to the frontier than any organized exclusive 8v8s ever did. It may have killed rvr for a while when 1 zerg logged off and it was 20 vs 4 or something but that's what camping pk was for. I dare anyone to try to be a known zerg leader today and not severely ****** off the loudest (not the most) voices in the community.

This toxic combination made the casual player or even the hardcore solo player feel like there were 2 version of Daoc. One that everyone had fun doing whatever they wanted with their realm mates and One with a secret code of conduct and special rules as to how not to be the dreaded, play for fun and not only to win, "scrub" (console kiddies love this word as they don't know what it's like to pay money to play 1 round of Street Fighter 2 and scoff at the fact that people would set inclusive rules to ensure everyone got their money's worth ie. no throws, mercy rounds, etc)

The fact that Uthgard is free, will reinforce elitist attitudes as it removes the "people are paying, so let them play how they want to." rebuttal, and those that play the most and are the loudest will have their way over the silent masses sooner or later. The challenge for Uthgard going forward (devs and community) is to change the attitude from exclusive to inclusive to allow all players to enjoy Daoc again for years to come.

You hit the nail on the head. If this server is going to survive and flourish it needs more than just the "ELITE" 8 man try-hard teams stroking their e-peens and making montage videos. We need everyone to be accepted and encouraged to learn and continue to play even if they aren't playing the class/spec you would have chosen. Unfortunately the people who listen to this message aren't the ones we should be worried about...

So you tell me that you want acceptance for casual players, and in the same sentence basically state that you do not accept "elitists"? See the problem?

It is not the responsibility of 8vs8 players to take "casuals" by the hand and show them a good time in RvR. If you really want to play 8vs8, you'll get a shot eventually, that was never the issue. Just because people that are interested in more competitive gameplay don't pick up random people does not explain why Uthgard struggled with establishing some sort of random/zerg culture.

On an average night, you had *maybe* 2 FGs per realm doing 8vs8 (usually less) - that is 48 players, out of SEVENHUNDRED. Where are the other 652?

Hence my wish for the developers to think about how to create a critical mass that can sustain casual RvR. Since we cannot magically increase the player numbers, you need to mitigate lack of players by making the RvR zone smaller (or the travel/down- times shorter, same difference).

Just remove Alb and Mid frontier, remove Mile Gates, and make Druim Cain instant accessible for Midgard and the Albion Portal Keep instant accessible for Albion.

This cuts discussions about too big zones, about portal times for Alb and Mid, about travel times for Hib, and Breifine will be the new Emain.

There's easy solutions once you start thinking outside the box.


See what I did there....

Describe an i50 freeshard?
Totally out of the box, yeah

For all the others crying around about how evil those 5% of the community are that actually have fun their way - show a little bit of effort and organize whatever you consider fun. Solo, smallmen, fullgroup, zerg .. no one hinders you to make it happen. Make it your goal to defend the home realm. To clear Mount Collory from grey people leveling. To zerg down evil 8 man elitist groups. Just don't blame the server setup, other players or the devs for you not being able to have fun with a sandbox.

If you don't manage to do so, it's your fault only.

Nauglamir wrote:show a little bit of effort and organize whatever you consider fun.

There's the core of the problem. Many people consider it fun WTFPWNing. In RvR, this requires certain... abilities. But if you have them, there is little reason to zerg But at least you can WTFPWN mobs.

Or in communist words, individual people who turn powerful, turn evil ^^

I still don't quite understand the entire elitist debate.

There is a simple solution to overly powerful individuals(i.e. skilled at the game in this case): gang up on them (zerg). Works in nature, human societies, and gaming. The server allows it. Nothing prevents you from doing this, unless perhaps your own lazy victim mentality.

This game is not casual by any means and the chances of 8 random people going up against 8 core players on TS is impossible even to kill 1 player. All games have a skill cap and depending on how high it is further separates players, the reason why DAoC is so appealing is because the skill cap is so high, especially when in a FG. DAoC forces you to become better and meet other good players because no one wants to lose whether it be pve or rvr. Even when we look at real life we see many separations in our community, just in our economy there is a name for different people depending on their income. Whether people want to admit it or not DAoC also has names for different types of players.

I've been thinking lately and feel that casual players are just a burden to the server. They don't contribute to RvR 90% of the time and are normally leveling characters, doing PvE farming, or battlegrounds. Even after these players are more then ready to rvr and contribute to the server they still refuse to. The actual truth is that RvR players (or Elite players) are the main reason why DAoC continue to stay strong in our hearts and it's sad that there are so few. On a normal day you would have 700 players online with only a handful of players actually doing RvR.

In conclusion I have always thought that having many casuals and artificially boosting population was a good thing, but now I see it really doesn't matter if the game is casual friendly or not. The server lives through the RvR players and it's best to keep the server competitive, fair, and challenging for those who actually want to do what the game was intended to be made for. The only benefit to having many casual players is always having a pve population that can help new players( rvr focused)to get leveled and geared for rvr.

Can an main focussed elitist player be casual friendly too? - Yes, sure.
Can a casual player be friendly towards elitist players when they ´re pure selfish a*sholes? - No, probably not.

Being extreme sided to one direction is always not a good thing .
It ´s possible to bring casual players and elitists together and I must confess that Uthgard/midgard side found a good way to keep their realm together in the past, they did it the best of all 3 realms.

I was always upset when some Hib groups didn ´t help at relic raids for example. I don ´t call names nor want to blame anyone, everyone is free to make their own decissions, but I was missing the realm pride/team spirit in Hibernia sometimes.

Zerging was never a good solution against good elitist groups. Mostly, it was more fun for the elitist groups and sometimes best realmpoints while they kited the zerg through 3 different zones just to ambush and cut like a knife through the butter because 90% of the zerglings didn ´t even use teamspeak in their groups or used toons that even didn ´t hit lvl. 50 even if they had better chars on their account.

But nobody can be blamed for the simple fact: "eat or be eaten" .I would just like to see elitists groups would join some events from time to time more often. It ´s not a big deal to pass some 8 vs 8 once in a week to join some raids or events or so.

I ´ve still the opinion that all players and playertypes can co-exist on a daoc server.
I ´m just a bit worried that many "casuals" /or players that don ´t have a big reputation/guild will have bigger problems now to even enter the frontier zones without these RP task missions. For many players zerging might be the best and only solution, I guess. We ´ll see.

P.S I think it ´s really time for some news now, the last grab back was long time ago.