shurick wrote:I am not sure what you guys are complaning about.

I do, it's like reading the buff potion topic all over again. They want 'balance'.

Please remember that this will be the same for everyone. So there will also be an increase of characters below RR5 in the frontiers since the journey from the last BG (1L9) is longer to RR5 than it was with 4L2 being the last BG cap.

EDIT: I see someone beat me to it with this point

I know I'm beating my horse and it is dead-- but what I keep talking about rps for greys and no rps while dead matters in this thread and on this topic.

The concept that a set group of good players can destroy pugs is true, despite realm rank. Take a set group of good players and GIVE them rr and they will do even better. So within a short time you will have some very good players with well setup groups who are kicking much ass.

What you have then is win at any cost only wanting the perfect class and the perfect template and spec and skill.

If you pug it up on your rr 2 toons vs those guys all night they will get even more rps because they win most of the time and the pug groups will hardly get any rps, even if they kill someone, because most of the time the members will be dead even if they are lucky enough to kill someone.. No rps while dead. Also pug support will be dead a lot and get no rps.

This bring us back to rps for greys? Will there be an xp bonus in the frontier? No doubt there will be. 5-6 months into the server there will be these rr 6 guys running around killing greys and greens and blues in the frontier-- of course as always-- but even if the xp groups kills one of these guys after 5-6 of them die, none of the dead players will get rps.

If people are supposed to have a risk versus reward should risk and reward not apply to even the lvl 50 toons who are high rr in rvr? Why give them reward of rps while killing greys. And since there are no rps for dead players as a 50 ns for example, you can jump into a group of xpers, kill them all or most of them, and have almost no risk and get a reward. Even if you play a 50 SB for example and run into a 50 animist and kill him then die to his shrooms-- you win-- full rps-- u died but animist got no rps. No real risk for you since you won the only thing that mattered-- RPS.

Fast forwarding 8 9 10 months into the future and you will literally be feeding your new players to your vets.

People do not like to work hard for no reward while others get reward for very little work.

Trishin wrote:...since the journey from the last BG (1L9) is longer to RR5 than it was with 4L2 ....

LOVE IT !


Can't wait to see everyone struggling with that rank and coming back quicker possible just to get spare RP !

Unfortunately will last just for a week or two, till few groups will reach the 5L and dominate on the others. Can't wait this to happen too!

People will start to try the first 8 vs 16+ and everything will be beautiful like it was

Frontier will be the place where the few 8 men groups meet to do their private fights. Frontier will be the place where the xp gankers go to kill new players. It will be the place where high rr solos meet at gates to duel.

Low rr players and new players should not go there as they will have all the cards stacked against them.

Win at any cost will be the new attitude. If rvr is the end game the average player won't get to participate in the end game except as fodder or food.

Will there be rps for taking keeps? Missions?

What this will be is the beginning of the end rather than the sustainability of a good server.

Trishin wrote:......So there will also be an increase of characters below RR5 in the frontiers since the journey from the last BG (1L9) is longer to RR5 than it was with 4L2 being the last BG cap.

EDIT: I see someone beat me to it with this point

Ok, you might be right at the beginning it will be that way, but after a while you ´ll see some changes when the elitists rise in realmranks,- new players/chars that start with 1L9 in their rand00m-solution-groups their frontier career, will in majority,- not rise and survive.

If you don ´t offer guard missions and realmpoints for keeptake, frontiers will be pretty quickly an elitist players playground, avoided by casuals, randoms etc. and you will see the same ol ´players doing rvr like it was on the graveyard called Uthgard 1.0. You want the people in the frontiers, you want action, you want motivated players,-> think carefully what you gonna do.
At least there should be realmpoints for keeptake and guard tasks in my opinion.

Ok, you might be right at the beginning it will be that way, but after a while you ´ll see some changes when the elitists rise in realmranks,- new players/chars that start with 1L9 in their rand00m-solution-groups their frontier career, will in majority,- not rise and survive.

That doesn't change the fact that the number of people below RR5 in the frontiers will increase.

Before:
- New character was made, capped 4L2 in BGs before hitting 50
- Result: new characters had to RvR from 4L2 to 5L0

Now:
- New character is made, capped at 1L9 in BGs before hitting 50
- Result: new characters have to RvR from 1L9 to 5L0

This will take longer (than 1L9 to 5L0 compared to 1L9 to 5L0) and hence will increase the amount of time a new character is in the frontiers at a lower RR (below RR5)

No matter if it's a new character from a veteran player, or from a new DAoC player.

Obviously a veteran player is at an advantage just like a player in a set guild. However that is the benefit of being a veteran player or a an 8v8 guild player. No matter what we do these players will have an advantage over casual players.

This is why casual players need to zerg up, which is much easier if veteran players take their hand and help them build a zerg.

All the 8v8 only players that want fair fights should go play on the i50 freeshard with 8v8 arenas where all players have the exact same RR and there are no adders. They can also organize 8v8 fights with each other in some other zone on Uthgard but there will be a lot of inequalities like what 30 min RAs that are up, RR differences, relic bonuses, adders and a lot of other stuff. Some of these 8v8 only players have a pretty lousy and egoistic mentality and whine and cry at zerg players and discourage them to continue playing on the server at all. In their eyes their 8 players having fun is more important than 30+ players having fun.

I hope Uthgard will be more of a chaotic sandbox RvR server where the realms try to build big zergs that will fight each other. Zergs with everything from high RR templated players but also lvl 35+ noobs without templates. Even when one realm lose a zerg fight hopefully theyll get some kills and rps before going down and then come back with more players and a bigger zerg for the next fight. And that this playstyle will be encouraged and not discouraged by the players like it was on Uthgard1.

I actually have nothing against zerg: in fact, it means more RPs for my "elite setgroup of Übermensch"!

relvinian wrote: as a 50 ns for example, you can jump into a group of xpers, kill them all or most of them, and have almost no risk and get a reward.

People do not like to work hard for no reward while others get reward for very little work.

While I totally agree that greys shouldn't be worth rps, the amount you actually get for them is so tiny and insignificant it would take you about two decades to rr up by killing them. Killing that fg of grays yields about 50 rps.

relvinian wrote:What you have then is win at any cost only wanting the perfect class and the perfect template and spec and skill.

That right there is what ruined the original game of RvR! Before Spellcrafting and Alchemy - and even before RPs were put into the game as well, people used to play for the fun of it, rather than narrow down the avenues of choices players actually had to make during the first 'classic pre-SI' era!

I seriously hope Trishin and the other Devs consider trying the scenario(s) I suggested in the other Grab Bag thread, and keeping SC & Alchemy out of the game completely, until SI is finally put in. Let people feel what the game was really like, before the 'perfect class, perfect template, perfect setup' nonsense came along and took away the part where people had to make choices between having high-quality crafted but stat-less gear, or lower quality gear with stats on them.

A Chronological patch-timeline scenario would be alot of fun especially on Uthgard, for both players and the Devs! To further elaborate, it wouldn't be like bringing back the broken mechanics, I'm only referring to content introduction like not having Darkness Falls initially, or Epic Quests or Epic Zones, etc. to make the game as close as it was "content-wise" to the original DAoC experience!

Trishin wrote:

Ok, you might be right at the beginning it will be that way, but after a while you ´ll see some changes when the elitists rise in realmranks,- new players/chars that start with 1L9 in their rand00m-solution-groups their frontier career, will in majority,- not rise and survive.

That doesn't change the fact that the number of people below RR5 in the frontiers will increase.

Before:
- New character was made, capped 4L2 in BGs before hitting 50
- Result: new characters had to RvR from 4L2 to 5L0

Now:
- New character is made, capped at 1L9 in BGs before hitting 50
- Result: new characters have to RvR from 1L9 to 5L0

This will take longer (than 1L9 to 5L0 compared to 1L9 to 5L0) and hence will increase the amount of time a new character is in the frontiers at a lower RR (below RR5)

No matter if it's a new character from a veteran player, or from a new DAoC player.

Obviously a veteran player is at an advantage just like a player in a set guild. However that is the benefit of being a veteran player or a an 8v8 guild player. No matter what we do these players will have an advantage over casual players.

This is why casual players need to zerg up, which is much easier if veteran players take their hand and help them build a zerg.

With old ra ´s you need way more realmpoints to receive some of the important RA ´s, so 1L9 is like nothing and I guess most of the ppl don ´t waste time in the battleground with their main,- maybe the last one to get purge and I think this is one of your goals, to get more ppl in the frontiers out of the bgs.. fine, I ´m ok with that, but players can ´t be forced to do things they don ´t wanna do, so the eat or leave slogan, won ´t be enough in every situation.

Veteran players or better said elitists will just rise much quicker and get a distance to the casuals as before. Obviously when there are no battlegrounds with a realm rank cap above 1L9 and no guard tasks and/or realmpoints for keeptake.
Before players had the chance to receive some RR with tasks and battlegates to reduce the gap to the elitists and don ´t lose contact so quickly.

We don ´t have to talk about time that ´s needed to reach RR 5L0,- a pug/guild player will reach it in no time, a casual , random player will need much longer, that ´s just a fact, part of the game and major supported by you with the current planed settings.

But you ´re right in general with your saying and my post is not meant as a complain,- the difference between our opinions is just that I ´m thinking long time termed and you ´re focussed at the start, or better said the beginning.
I don ´t say that my opinion is the right one here,- I ´m just afraid that the staff is forced to do some changes later to bring back some balance and players, and that would suck.

As Blue once said, he would like to have a complete server where not much changes have to be made later and I totally agree to this.
If you´re forced to bring higher battlegates and maybe guard tasks later because of population problems,- the same argue and discussions like it happend at the end of Uth. 1.0 will occur and the server will be dying.
At least I think everyone of us wants a running server with a healthy population for a long, long time and not one year of fun and starving after that. I don ´t think my points will change your mind, but they should be considered.

Anyway, let ´s start the beta Trish, I ´m still addicted to daoc and can ´t wait to play .

Best regards
Megrim

"Obviously a veteran player is at an advantage just like a player in a set guild. However that is the benefit of being a veteran player or a an 8v8 guild player. No matter what we do these players will have an advantage over casual players.

This is why casual players need to zerg up, which is much easier if veteran players take their hand and help them build a zerg."


None of this that you wrote changes the fact that no rps for greys and rps while dead has no negative effect and helps new players and pugs more than set groups and vets.

Being dead and losing all the rps your group gets while you are dead is a nerf to your rp gain. There is no benefit to it, it is only a nerf.

When xp is slow as it will be (except for the vets powerleveling their alts) and rp gain is slow (except for the vets destroying casuals) people will not want to log in and your server population is going to explode then peak then decline until finally you will have the perfect but mostly empty server you devs seem to want.

15 months of downtime working on the server but you won't even get 15 months of uptime with good population.

Seems like you wouldn't be so stubborn And that is the only word I can find. When I'm right and all this takes place as I predict will you listen to your players then? Because no business even a non-profit ever succeeded by deliberately doing the opposite of what their customers wanted or what was good for business.

Well onlive when they released BGs, ppl just when Thid to get 1L4 for MCL o FA, a nice RAS to rush to lvl 50 ... the rest of bg's were mostly empty.

TBH, I dont see really and advantage, despite of fun ofc and rvr at low lvls, to get to 1L9 on BG, since it can take more time to get that level on BGS than in Emain etc.. what is 1L9 at lvl 50... 7 solo kills? with the old rp system... and you can get that in less than 1h..

Just my personal opinion:

I am one of the guys who haven't played much endgame RvR (had two RR4L7, three RR4L2) on Uthgard v1. My only problem I ever had with the frontiers is the enormous time spent to wait for the porters, then run from mpk to amg, then wait for enemies. Let's be honest, it just takes a sh*tload of time to do RvR in the frontiers. And I don't have this time anymore. I would like to have fast-paced action and Thidranki provided it perfectly fine. I hadn't this much fun again later in the frontiers.

I honestly question myself if this oldschool setting is still acceptable nowadays. If you would provide both, some battlegrounds (rr4-rr7, rr7-rr10...) AND the frontiers, I am pretty sure that 80% of the people (also those who played PvE-only before) would play in the battlegrounds and not in the frontiers. It's slightly less time consuming and thus a lot more fun!

I know this is out of discussion, but yoo.. ain't nobody got time fo dat!