Just make a npc buffer in rvr and call it a day. Otherwise again you limit the classes that use stealth as intended in this great game. Me personally I would like to either see buff bot's allowed, npc buffers or at the leats have npc have pots that will give the same effect at a low cost so the solo player community can have fun just like the ones who like to run in groups. It makes the game fair in every way.

newguy wrote:
don't back down now quik, you had a good thing going......I still still still....haven't heard a valid reason on what is wrong/not equal of no buff pots or charges....I'm waiting...

the only remotely valid reason I heard is that it affects solo play... well this game was not designed around solo play

and I've heard countless times players that put the time in the chars should be more powerful... well that is true but... its TOA all over again folks cant you see it...

still waiting for a logical reasonable answer to what would be wrong as far a fairness is concerned if there were no pots/charges

You guys are driving me crazy. You keep asking the same questions over and over without reading what people have written. If you don't care about solo play then why are you worried about buff charges!?!?!

Also, tell me one time that mythic officially stated "this game is not intended to be played solo." Cause over on the CU forums and q&a's, Mark Jacobs talks about solo play being an important part of any mmo. They gave us the Lone Enforcer title. Why would they do that if they didn't want people to solo?

And one or two buff items is nowhere near the timesink ToA required. Calling elements of the game that were around even before SI TOA-like is just silly. "Omg I have to level my character to 50, it takes forever, it's just like leveling artis in ToA..."

But seriously can you explain to me why you are so concerned about buff charges if you don't intend to solo at all??? It's boggling my mind.

Baman wrote:You guys are driving me crazy. You keep asking the same questions over and over without reading what people have written. If you don't care about solo play then why are you worried about buff charges!?!?!

Also, tell me one time that mythic officially stated "this game is not intended to be played solo." Cause over on the CU forums and q&a's, Mark Jacobs talks about solo play being an important part of any mmo. They gave us the Lone Enforcer title. Why would they do that if they didn't want people to solo?

And one or two buff items is nowhere near the timesink ToA required. Calling elements of the game that were around even before SI TOA-like is just silly. "Omg I have to level my character to 50, it takes forever, it's just like leveling artis in ToA..."

But seriously can you explain to me why you are so concerned about buff charges if you don't intend to solo at all??? It's boggling my mind.

I didn't say you weren't intended to solo...I said we should base anything specifically on soloing. if buff pots were designed for soloers I think that's a bad thing personally. I personally don't think anything should be made for specific styles of play. Soloing is a part of the game or else they wouldn't have made so many efforts into stealthing fixes/nerfs.

And this has nothing to do with whether I plan on soloing. Zero. I have NO idea if I will solo or not. I am just trying to grasp why buff pots/charges are SO important to everyone. I understand they make a soloers life easier. I am not disputing that. I understand that. I don't care about that. This has nothing to do with that.

I am just astounded that people are SO dependent on these items and can find every excuse in the world why they need to be in the game...but most people can't actually come up with a good reason.

Again I get Baman's reasoning as far as it puts soloers on equal footing. I find it unfortunate that you need a pot/charge to compete against another class who is using it as an innate ability. I personally think pots/charges take away from self buffing classes. yes I understand they aren't nearly as good but that's not the point either.

Ok I look at it like this. A ranger gets self buffing abilities and a scout who I would say is the alb version of the ranger...in a way...does not. Now the scout can use a pot to PARTIALLY counteract the rangers self buffing ability because that's a special ability of the ranger...yet the scout who has a shield stun ability keeps his unique ability and the ranger can in NO way use a shield in a similar manner. Shield is unique about scouts...self buffing is unique about rangers. Yet the scout can partially copy the rangers ability while the ranger can not partially copy the scouts.

I personally think a classes special ability should STAY unique.

Now if what Baman says is true and self buffers are OP because of the ability then fine I can see it...I just don't remember them being OP when I played YEARS ago.

Again people need to get off the solo part of this or the casual part of this. It has nothing to do with either. It is simply a unqiue ability that I personally should stay unique.

not sure why people are so mad I won't change my mind and agree just because people say I should. Bamans reason is the only thing that has me partially understanding it I'm just not sure yet.

And again I haven't been rude to anyone so plz if you don't agree with me fine just ignore it. I keep replying to posts as an answer to them.

From an equality standpoint, providing buffs to everyone would pretty clearly eliminate the unfairness argument. It can't be unfair if everyone has it. Just like the current live setup, they should be slightly weaker than 'real' buffs to maintain a reason to spec buffs (no shears in Classic).

Honestly if you're trying to be practical and fair this is the route to take. It makes the server more friendly to casuals (1337kidz read: free rps) while maintaining spec buff's competitive edge. Pots would be a good idea and a server economic motivator, NPC's would be a true equalizer, but I know that will most likely not happen with the server admins feeling the way they do about classicism.

Player-run buffbots are a bad idea for the server. Not for any gameplay reasons, but because this is a privately run server with limited bandwidth and every spot should be made available to an active player both to cut down on lag and avoid a capped population with an empty emain.

Just my two pennies, nothing that hasn't been said before. It's all falling on deaf ears anyway tbh.

EDIT: Quik, it's important and we're dependent because we've been doing this ****** for 14 years and while classic is novel and nostalgic, sitting for 5 minutes after getting down to half fighting a yellow in green armor is not going to be awesome after 2 months of 5 hour sessions. There's no glory for a completely unspiffed stealther either. Personally, as both someone who 8manned and someone who stealthed, I enjoy the added danger of effective stealthers and as a stealther I enjoyed being dangerous.

Pretty much my standpoint Arrest, but as you said since how the admins feel about this we will be stuck with the custom solution we had before so charges/buffpots will be a big thing as it was on 1.0. Nobody really likes it but everybody (solo) will have to go that route to stay competetive. Plus the balance is at least not as completly ducked as it would be without charges/pots at all.

Everyone who's striving for balance is missing the point that this is not a balanced game... At all.

There's no balance in engaging a 8v8 against a higher realm rank team.
There's no balance in zerging a fg with 30 people.
There's no balance in a 1v1 against a class who has debuffs (or DDs for instance)

There is no goddamn balance because that's how the game works, if you spend more time on your char, you get stronger. If you don't, then obviously you're left behind. That's what you deserve. That's all your fault, it's not mine if I'm willing to spend 100 more hours than you farming my gear up.

What can you suggest to fix the first problem? Rank-based arenas, where only 10L can compete against 10L? How can you avoid the zerg, by banning who does it? Do we want to remove debuffs from the champion, or the DDs from thane, since they OBVIOUSLY have no real counterplay?

This game was never meant to be balanced. Everybody having the same items, the same skills, the same stuff... I don't really think you understand. And once again I'm glad the staff will ignore you, because what you're looking for is an instant50 pvp server with NPC providing the same items to everyone. This, or tetris.

Uthgard 1.0 was perfectly fine. People just didn't have the willpower to learn from their mistakes and farm DG just like everybody did: better log or level up the 14th char.

[I swear this is my last reply on this matter, I have no time to waste with people doubting the very core of this game for their selfishness.]

Juri wrote:Everyone who's striving for balance is missing the point that this is not a balanced game... At all.

There's no balance in engaging a 8v8 against a higher realm rank team.
There's no balance in zerging a fg with 30 people.
There's no balance in a 1v1 against a class who has debuffs (or DDs for instance)

There is no goddamn balance because that's how the game works, if you spend more time on your char, you get stronger. If you don't, then obviously you're left behind. That's what you deserve. That's all your fault, it's not mine if I'm willing to spend 100 more hours than you farming my gear up.

What can you suggest to fix the first problem? Rank-based arenas, where only 10L can compete against 10L? How can you avoid the zerg, by banning who does it? Do we want to remove debuffs from the champion, or the DDs from thane, since they OBVIOUSLY have no real counterplay?

This game was never meant to be balanced. Everybody having the same items, the same skills, the same stuff... I don't really think you understand. And once again I'm glad the staff will ignore you, because what you're looking for is an instant50 pvp server with NPC providing the same items to everyone. This, or tetris.

Uthgard 1.0 was perfectly fine. People just didn't have the willpower to learn from their mistakes and farm DG just like everybody did: better log or level up the 14th char.

[I swear this is my last reply on this matter, I have no time to waste with people doubting the very core of this game for their selfishness.]

I am not talking about different ranks. I am simply talking about balance between realms and classes.

I am not talking about someone who puts 100 hours into the game compared to 10 hours. Are you really so petty you can't simply answer the question as stated instead of adding in things I never asked for?!?!?!

Again...RR have NO bearing on this...soloing has no bearing on this...hours played has no bearing on this.

Apparently I am the only person here who thinks the game SHOULD be balanced between realms and classes. Not levels or RR or gear...just in general.

You should ALWAYS start out with balance and then the other stuff of course changes everything and that's a totally different and understandable debate.

Alb = Hib = Mid is how it should START with everyone at the same level and gear and RR. Obviously some classes have different abilities that other realms have to account for and change set ups for. This is fine also. Are you really saying the game should NOT be balanced between equally geared/leveled/RR'ed toons? One realm should have a much higher chance of success against another?

The game you are describing would simply make me want to play on the most powerful realm as an easy button (oh maybe that's your plan and you don't want that messed with?)

@ Arrest - thank you that again makes perfect sense and yes everyone having pots is the same as no one having pots...but even that is not exactly what I am asking.

Does it not take away from the self buffing classes...even a little...to give EVERY non self buffing class the ability to get them?

I know people brought up the difference of the buffs...pots giving only 30 while specs give 90 or something. I get that. lets say self buffs were reduced to 60 since that's the difference...would pots still be important? I think people would still scream they want pots because they want to negate the advanatage a few classes have rather then deal with them. Again if they are so OP I get it I just never realized self buffs were so OP you couldn't win a fight against them.

The very core, indeed the very fabric of this game's fragile existence!!

The melodrama. You can either

a) maintain your s00p0rl33tz mentality and play on a small server OR

b) give up a tiny amount of accommodation to people with things like jobs and families (also known as casual gamers) and play on a large server, one with the potential to be the last and greatest of the DAoC freeshard cornerstones, and beat your chest twice as hard, having twice as many filthy, unskilled n00bs to feel superior to.

I mean I'm gonna play either way, I miss DAoC. it's only the "how long" that's dictated by how amenable (or stupid) it is deemed necessary to make my life while I'm playing. I can tell you for sure that if I'm still grinding a yellow every half 10 minutes in my 30's 2 months after release, I'm probably going to lose motivation. And then it wont matter how good or bad I am, because I, and others like me, will simply be gone, and that will be who knows how many n00bs not roaming emain anymore.

Less players = Bad. More players = Good. This is a very simple, easy-to-understand formula. You don't have to suck your playerbase's dick to do well, Uthgard obviously has a fanatically loyal following, and for good reason. That being said, you should at least try to encourage every strain of gamer to move in and stay, and no buffs/no pots excludes a lot of people, whether the uB0rZ frothing at the mouth about it like to admit it or not. I feel that a lot of players are forgetting how long and frustrating unbuffed, green-geared classic could be. You'll be letting players go, with no benefit to gameplay, to stick to some sort of elite-esque ideal of "Classic" DAoC. Not because they're n00bz0rz who cant h4kz it, but because we've all played this game for a decade and a half and playing unbuffed by yourself is lame.

"LOL get a grp!"

Funny tried that last time I played Uth and there weren't any takers. Wonder why? Maybe because it's a freeshard and the playerbase can't support a group model built for thousands of players, as opposed to maybe 30.

"But I did it!"
Yeah, on release day. How about a month down the road? 2 months? I started in late '12, and had the wonderful experience of levelling a shaman to 50 solo because there were NO EXP groups whatsoever, REGARDLESS of level range on during my playtime. I live in the US. Once the 50's hit 50, very few wanna do it twice. Because we've been doing it since Jordheim wasn't a safe zone.

@Quik, yeah, you could say it will hurt classes like solo healers, wardens, friars and the like. I'm not knocking these classes and playstyles either, they are really cool and at least two of them will take real balls to play in classic. I don't have the answer for that question unfortunately. My desire for buffs stems mostly from the want to reach 50 without hating my life, in RVR I will accommodate appropriately.

Arrest wrote:@Quik, yeah, you could say it will hurt classes like solo healers, wardens, friars and the like. I'm not knocking these classes and playstyles either, they are really cool and at least two of them will take real balls to play in classic. I don't have the answer for that question unfortunately. My desire for buffs stems mostly from the want to reach 50 without hating my life, in RVR I will accommodate appropriately.

Oh I agree completely here. I think buff pots are great for PvE I just think for RvR they take a little away from what classes are meant for. Like I said its probably just me I just like an attempt at balance at least =)

For those that want "balance": Let's create a game where we have 1 race and one class on each side, everything is the same. Same stats, same equipment, same resistances, every time. Each attack is the same (since there is only one), each defense is the same. There will be no RNG involved. The winner of every fight will be the one that gets the first attack. 100% balanced! No skill involved either.


DAoC was never built around char balance, it was built around utility and who makes most out of it wins. It was created with large scale Realm versus Realm fights in mind, not 8vs8 group fighting. 8 for a group was just a number that was decided for in the development process, it could have been 5 aswell, or 7, or 6 or even 10 per group, but they decided to set it to 8.


I had a lot of fun fights in RVR with my RR3 Avalonian Polearms Woman on live, a lot of stealthers fell for the trap of "Avalonian with long stafflike item in hand, though the armor is plate, but I don't care, it's AVALONIAN!". Not every fight was won, but quite some were.

The most fun part of solo RVR with a stealth char is: YOU!, YOU ALONE! select your target you attack. It's your VERY OWN choice to attack this enemy at this given time! YOU can guess the class, you can decide: Is it worth it? ... If you attack, you made your move, you force YOUR choice onto your enemy, who had no choice. YOU get the opening, you have ALL the favours on YOUR side. Accept it, if the outcome is defeat, simply ACCEPT it, and learn. Don't cry for buffs or not buffs or balance. If you attack a Warden you mistook for a Dr00d, well, your fault. The list is endless, it's not that a stealth char has to win each fight just because of certain reasons. There's win, and there's defeat. It's PVP, accept it.

If you go solo with a non-stealth char, it's your VERY OWN decision. If you get killed by a group -> ****** happens. If you get killed by stealth zerg: ****** happens.

Accept the consequences.

silenced wrote:
The most fun part of solo RVR with a stealth char is: YOU!, YOU ALONE! select your target you attack. It's your VERY OWN choice to attack this enemy at this given time! YOU can guess the class, you can decide: Is it worth it? ... If you attack, you made your move, you force YOUR choice onto your enemy, who had no choice. YOU get the opening, you have ALL the favours on YOUR side.

......except when you're an archer and your camo is down.

silenced wrote:The most fun part of solo RVR with a stealth char is: YOU!, YOU ALONE! select your target you attack. It's your VERY OWN choice to attack this enemy at this given time! YOU can guess the class, you can decide: Is it worth it? ... If you attack, you made your move, you force YOUR choice onto your enemy, who had no choice. YOU get the opening, you have ALL the favours on YOUR side. Accept it, if the outcome is defeat, simply ACCEPT it, and learn. Don't cry for buffs or not buffs or balance. If you attack a Warden you mistook for a Dr00d, well, your fault. The list is endless, it's not that a stealth char has to win each fight just because of certain reasons. There's win, and there's defeat. It's PVP, accept it.

If you go solo with a non-stealth char, it's your VERY OWN decision. If you get killed by a group -> ****** happens. If you get killed by stealth zerg: ****** happens.

Accept the consequences.

I agree with this completely but not sure how this has ANYTHING to do with what I was asking LOL

And actually yes DAoC did have balance to it to a degree. They basically made similar classes in every realm but with different abilities.

Each realm had...

Pure tank (Hero/Warrior/Armsman)
Nukers (Wizard/Eld/Runie)
Healer (Healer/Cleric/Druid)
Music (Thane/Bard/Minstrel)
etc...

Yes individually one of each group might destroy the other 2 but it generally was balanced out in some other way on the battlefield...aka balance...or an attempt at least.

Each patch they adjusted each of those to try to make them work similar but with a lot of different abilities. Of course you won't get straight balance and a Wiz won't be the exact same as an Eld...but you CAN try to get a simple balance of all combined classes in all realms. This is why they were always changing. One class was OP one patch and nerfed the next...it was an attempt to keep things balanced. I am not saying it was something they achieved but they always worked on. Even in beta they said they wanted the realms to be balanced and asked for feedback.

Regardless none of this had anything to do with my question on pots LOL

After getting caught up I would like to touch on a few things here:

Warcast wrote:Buff pots and charges just adds tedium.

Same with farming a template, getting to lvl 50, and earning RR's. This game is tedious. Its also one of the things I love. There is always another level of what you can do to improve your toon which means you want to keep coming back for along time.

Quik wrote:IMHO...and I keep saying this as it is my opinion...lets say an infiltrator attacks a ranger. The ranger has all his self buffs as that is part of his class...yet the infiltrator is using the charge items and pots. To ME this is a touch unfair because the ranger has an ability from his class to self buff and the infi doesn't normally but is using outside sources. To me this takes away from what is special about a ranger. It basically says that sorry ranger but we are gonna give the infi the ability to self buff because its not fair you have self buffing spells.

This argument has been used before. Its a decent argument since at one point in the game buff pots did not exist. I'm pretty sure charges to some degree were always in game but I'm not for sure. The problem with this argument is that Mythic did indeed put in alchemy well before the 1.65 limit which the gm's have done EVERYTHING they can to maintain. They are resetting the server for this reason. So removal of a major craft and item function will not happen. Sorry, but it just won't.

Also, you are trying to compare classes being fair (ranger as a self buff class vs inf who is not) when this is really a mute point. Its not a matter of class balance. Its a matter of how many extra steps you want to take to make your toon a little better than your opponent. Some will take the extra steps for buff pots, others won't. Same as some will farm that hard to get piece of gear and others will not. Everyone has access to make an alchemist. They all can farm or pay for potions. Its up to the player to decide if they want to or not.

Also, rangers also used those same pots and charges as the other non-buff classes which meant they almost always had more overall buff's than the non self buff classes used. So the self buff classes still had their advantages over non self buff classes IF they chose to run pots/charges. This is coming from a guy whose main toon was a ranger/hunter. Trust me, buff pots/charges did not diminish either class.

Warcast wrote:Again, I'm not trying to argue here - what is the difference between buff bots and buff pots? (aside from stat differences)

The main difference on this server is if you allowed buff bots it would eliminate the social aspect of PvE mainly and some RvR. Not to mention that if buffbots were here you would have everyone running at least 2 accounts at all times and some would be running fg's of bots. This puts TONS of extra stress on a limited server. Live didn't have this issue. Uthgard does.

Quik wrote:I didn't say you weren't intended to solo...I said we should base anything specifically on soloing. if buff pots were designed for soloers I think that's a bad thing personally. I personally don't think anything should be made for specific styles of play. Soloing is a part of the game or else they wouldn't have made so many efforts into stealthing fixes/nerfs.

You seem to forget that groups also use potions. Mana, health, endo, etc. Funny you mention that buff pots/charges seem to only favor one style of play. Go back and read when they removed barrells. Just as many group players were upset as solo's. The reason was now they had to fill their bags w/ solo charge heal/mana/endo pots and replace them on their hotbars as they used them.

Juri wrote:Everyone who's striving for balance is missing the point that this is not a balanced game... At all.

There's no balance in engaging a 8v8 against a higher realm rank team.
There's no balance in zerging a fg with 30 people.
There's no balance in a 1v1 against a class who has debuffs (or DDs for instance)

......

Uthgard 1.0 was perfectly fine. People just didn't have the willpower to learn from their mistakes and farm DG just like everybody did: better log or level up the 14th char.

[I swear this is my last reply on this matter, I have no time to waste with people doubting the very core of this game for their selfishness.]

110% agree. The problem is saying that removal of buff potions and charge items to save casual players time is not a matter of balance in making things equal. Its a matter of wanting a thing removed so you have 1 less time sink. It sounds nice, but that is not what this game is. The players who play 5 hours a night, EVERY night will have an advantage over a player who plays 5 hours a week total. It can be in gear, RR's, skill, and even little things like potions and charges.

The funny thing to me was that the time sink involved with potions is very minimal. To get an alchemist level'd up enough to make the potions most people would run cost like less than 200g. It took less than a solid night or two of crafting. To farm the materials only took a small amount of time. Compared to the time investment in farming gear, levels, and RR's that is a small % of time. This game is something that takes LOTS of time to be good at.

@RonELuvv - very well put and thank you.

I really don't expect them to get rid of pots I was simply asking for a valid reason for them to exist. It still looks like the biggest argument is simply because most non buffing classes are in need of more help and if that's the case then it makes sense.

Most arguments on here are of the "because they were on classic!!!" and that to me is the worst argument to use. I don't care if it was on classic...there were bugs on classic that were fixed later but are people demanding all bugs be left in? If something...and I am NOT referring to pots here...is bad for the game it should NOT be left in the game JUST because it was in classic.

The Dev's should use simple logic and it looks like they are on some things. I am glad for this. Obviously we all want the classic feel but if you are gonna use the "gotta be like classic" that's fine but you also have to accept buff bots and boxers and other things most people obviously don't want here.

DAoC is awesome. I will play it for a few months and if things are going well as far as bugs and community then I am all in and will happily donate for the server.

The problem is so many people on here feel "entitled" because of various things including the classic argument as well as being a veteran of Uth 1.0 that they seem to want to belittle people who are looking to give it a try and want to ask questions.

I appreciate all the decent replies I have gotten on the subject =)

Wtf.... way too many wot to read