Warcast wrote:I'm asking a legitimate question here, not trying to start a flame war

What really is the difference between buff bots vs pots then? (Other than the higher stat value which is moot because bots are banned and all pot buffs are assumed equal here)

The way I see it you pay for both, whether it's time or money (second account, historically) to achieve the same goal - whether you call it 'balance' or advantage or staying competitive.

Well it might sound similar, but in fact its not.
Pots will never be able to replace a buffer (aka Player/human being), a buffbot actually does this purpose, is mainly used to avoid to have to invite a buffclass in your group to do whatever you need to (which can be either PvE or RvR).

I used them on Live, i know how much useful they were, but as a "mature" player i understand the importance of banish them from the game to preserve a better "environment" (mostly on PvE side).

Not to mention the last difference (which is less important with nowdays computers but..) not everyone can afford to log two clients to get the same benefits from who can instead, so basically this is more unbalanced than just "have to buy/make pots" if you know what i mean.

Caemma wrote:

Warcast wrote:I'm asking a legitimate question here, not trying to start a flame war

What really is the difference between buff bots vs pots then? (Other than the higher stat value which is moot because bots are banned and all pot buffs are assumed equal here)

The way I see it you pay for both, whether it's time or money (second account, historically) to achieve the same goal - whether you call it 'balance' or advantage or staying competitive.

Well it might sound similar, but in fact its not.
Pots will never be able to replace a buffer (aka Player/human being), a buffbot actually does this purpose, is mainly used to avoid to have to invite a buffclass in your group to do whatever you need to (which can be either PvE or RvR).

I used them on Live, i know how much useful they were, but as a "mature" player i understand the importance of banish them from the game to preserve a better "environment" (mostly on PvE side).

Not to mention the last difference (which is less important with nowdays computers but..) not everyone can afford to log two clients to get the same benefits from who can instead, so basically this is more unbalanced than just "have to make pots" if you know what i mean.

That's fair - for 8v8 I can definitely understand that difference between a pot and spec buff for keeping classes in play.

At this point I'm just having trouble with the whole redundancy issue of it - you gotta admit how tedious the whole process is, and for what reason? It takes no extra skill to click a potion every 10 minutes than it does every 60 minutes. I'll leave it at that.

Quik wrote:@Jerrian - You wanna sit there and tell people to play elsewhere already simply because I am asking a question on balance? Uth is already gonna be an uphill climb and I am more then willing to stay with it regardless of pots but plz don't think I don't have the right to ask a simple question. if you can't think of a good reason then just don't answer. I was not rude to anyone nor did I make demands to get rid of...I just asked why people think they are so necessary.

Hey, I never forbid someone to ask any questions and my advice to play something else when not happy with the common setup of this was just meant honest.
You got enough answers to your questions even in my post, but don ´t seem to accept them. That ´s your thing and your opinion, and it ´s ok I guess, but you have to accept other opinions too.

But in overall case it ´s a useless discussion at all, because pots & charges will be in because they are part of the 1.65 and earlier settings and you have to deal with it.
Like you ´ve the right to make questions, I ´ve the right to answer so don ´t tell me to keep quiet. Maybe it ´s easier for you to take my reply, when I tell you my answer wasn ´t meant rude, ok?

This is the uthgard forum-- here people tell you that you are a whiner and if you don't like the server just leave. Then they get butt hurt when the server tanks and closes-- when people do just that.

But they still don't learn.

Warcast wrote:Again, I'm not trying to argue here - what is the difference between buff bots and buff pots? (aside from stat differences)

Buffbots are way more chilled. You don't have to farm weeks/month to get your charges or money for pots. You don't need to break rvr to restock with new pots. Or even worse craft new pots. You don't lose a fight cause you get caught unbuffed. You don't loose a fight cause your charge is fading.

Not saying i want buffbots back but the charge war is way more worse. Especially if str/c is hard to get. Solo is a pain in the ass when you have to buff yourself with charges and pots. And you'll have to. But thats daoc.

Thalien wrote:Buffbots are way more chilled. You don't have to farm weeks/month to get your charges or money for pots. You don't need to break rvr to restock with new pots. Or even worse craft new pots. You don't lose a fight cause you get caught unbuffed. You don't loose a fight cause your charge is fading. .

However you do need to run back to the portal keep to rebuff when you die so may as well /release

Which is kinda ok since : as a group you get ressed and buffed by your healers. If too many die the hole group walks back/suicides witch stretches out the gameplay, and as a solo well.. Either release or if you run in a stealthgroup then you probably dont care/are easiet to beat by a buffed solo player.

dont forget that pots and charges eliminate money, which is a really important aspect of our servers economy.

i dont say they are a solution, but a major part.
for example: my sword hunter edgtho used 270p for buffs from 4l2 to 7l2
better players would have used less, but i am who i am.

this 270p are the money i had on my char on 4l2, not counting the money i made during the RR increase, which i spent also.

-l- Edgtho -l- wrote:dont forget that pots and charges eliminate money, which is a really important aspect of our servers economy.

i dont say they are a solution, but a major part.
for example: my sword hunter edgtho used 270p for buffs from 4l2 to 7l2
better players would have used less, but i am who i am.

this 270p are the money i had on my char on 4l2, not counting the money i made during the RR increase, which i spent also.

Thanks...I know people mentioned that its good for the economy but your explanation makes a lot of sense for getting rid of plat instead of just hoarding it.

So it sounds like there are 2 main reasons for buff pots/charges:

1) Self buffing classes were too powerful when fighting a similar non self buffing class. Honestly I never realized that self buffs were THAT big of a deal. Mainly just thought it was a nice luxury but not game changing.

2) its a way to get rid of plat and keep the economy going. Again never really thought of it like that.

Thanks guys =)

@Juri - you really need to get over yourself...I asked a simply question just looking for honest answers and all you could do was flame every chance you got. Yeah I was trolling because I was really curious why everyone wanted buff pots so much.

@Jerrian - same as Juri...get over yourself. The answers I kept getting were the same over and over and had nothing to do with why they were better...just the fact that they were in classic and had to be there...and that is NOT an argument. Baman and Edgtho at least took the time to try to give honest answers and not just "BECAUSE!!"

Also I was NEVER rude unless someone was rude to me first. I just never thought the answers were relevant most were just copouts. If you want to think this is trolling you really need to look up the definition again. I was very polite to people that were trying to answer in an honest way. Hopefully Baman didn't think I was trolling because he was the most helpful on the subject.

Warcast wrote:

Caemma wrote:

Warcast wrote:I'm asking a legitimate question here, not trying to start a flame war

What really is the difference between buff bots vs pots then? (Other than the higher stat value which is moot because bots are banned and all pot buffs are assumed equal here)

The way I see it you pay for both, whether it's time or money (second account, historically) to achieve the same goal - whether you call it 'balance' or advantage or staying competitive.

Well it might sound similar, but in fact its not.
Pots will never be able to replace a buffer (aka Player/human being), a buffbot actually does this purpose, is mainly used to avoid to have to invite a buffclass in your group to do whatever you need to (which can be either PvE or RvR).

I used them on Live, i know how much useful they were, but as a "mature" player i understand the importance of banish them from the game to preserve a better "environment" (mostly on PvE side).

Not to mention the last difference (which is less important with nowdays computers but..) not everyone can afford to log two clients to get the same benefits from who can instead, so basically this is more unbalanced than just "have to make pots" if you know what i mean.

That's fair - for 8v8 I can definitely understand that difference between a pot and spec buff for keeping classes in play.

At this point I'm just having trouble with the whole redundancy issue of it - you gotta admit how tedious the whole process is, and for what reason? It takes no extra skill to click a potion every 10 minutes than it does every 60 minutes. I'll leave it at that.

I agree, its a bit silly, infact i would totally support longer durations for pots/charges, but i guess it will never happen.
I would even decrease the recast timer of abilities like purge for every realm to make the RvR less boring/"one shot one kill" kind, but again, it will never happen.

Quik wrote:

-l- Edgtho -l- wrote:dont forget that pots and charges eliminate money, which is a really important aspect of our servers economy.

i dont say they are a solution, but a major part.
for example: my sword hunter edgtho used 270p for buffs from 4l2 to 7l2
better players would have used less, but i am who i am.

this 270p are the money i had on my char on 4l2, not counting the money i made during the RR increase, which i spent also.

Thanks...I know people mentioned that its good for the economy but your explanation makes a lot of sense for getting rid of plat instead of just hoarding it.

So it sounds like there are 2 main reasons for buff pots/charges:

1) Self buffing classes were too powerful when fighting a similar non self buffing class. Honestly I never realized that self buffs were THAT big of a deal. Mainly just thought it was a nice luxury but not game changing.

2) its a way to get rid of plat and keep the economy going. Again never really thought of it like that.

Thanks guys =)

@Juri - you really need to get over yourself...I asked a simply question just looking for honest answers and all you could do was flame every chance you got. Yeah I was trolling because I was really curious why everyone wanted buff pots so much.

@Jerrian - same as Juri...get over yourself. The answers I kept getting were the same over and over and had nothing to do with why they were better...just the fact that they were in classic and had to be there...and that is NOT an argument. Baman and Edgtho at least took the time to try to give honest answers and not just "BECAUSE!!"

Also I was NEVER rude unless someone was rude to me first. I just never thought the answers were relevant most were just copouts. If you want to think this is trolling you really need to look up the definition again. I was very polite to people that were trying to answer in an honest way. Hopefully Baman didn't think I was trolling because he was the most helpful on the subject.

don't back down now quik, you had a good thing going......I still still still....haven't heard a valid reason on what is wrong/not equal of no buff pots or charges....I'm waiting...

the only remotely valid reason I heard is that it affects solo play... well this game was not designed around solo play

and I've heard countless times players that put the time in the chars should be more powerful... well that is true but... its TOA all over again folks cant you see it...

still waiting for a logical reasonable answer to what would be wrong as far a fairness is concerned if there were no pots/charges

I don't disagree Newguy.

I still don't see a truly valid reason. I can see Bamans point on soloing although I agree the game should be based around soloers. And I see the point on the economy but I don't think the buff pots are gonna change the economy if they were taken out.

Right now it seems like most people simply want them as an advantage or as a way to partially counteract the advantages self buffing classes get. To me it seems like the biggest argument is "they were on classic so they have to be on Uth".

This is where Juri thinks I am trolling when I am simply trying to determine how pots TRULY make the game better. Eliminating them simply puts people on equal ground and the arguments for them don't really change that.

I would love to hear more ideas personally but I have the feeling that most people simply don't care about balance more then that "classic" feel. To me classic was great but it still had flaws. I would rather see flaws fixed then just accepted. If a certain style didn't work properly on classic I wonder how people would react to uth fixing it properly. I saw a thread before where someone was upset that Uth had fixed something and that it wasn't PURE classic because of that and that mentality just blows me away.

I will be playing Uth. For how long depends on how things go and if it is simply another elitist type of game. I play for fun and yes I will template my guys ASAP I won't be screaming in game when something doesn't go just right.

For those that answered as much as you did I send a thank you =)

For those who seemed to be troubled by my asking questions about balance and pots/charges you might ask yourself why does it bother you so much?

newguy wrote:don't back down now quik, you had a good thing going......I still still still....haven't heard a valid reason on what is wrong/not equal of no buff pots or charges....I'm waiting...

the only remotely valid reason I heard is that it affects solo play... well this game was not designed around solo play

and I've heard countless times players that put the time in the chars should be more powerful... well that is true but... its TOA all over again folks cant you see it...

still waiting for a logical reasonable answer to what would be wrong as far a fairness is concerned if there were no pots/charges

OK so if they removed charges/pots I would not cry about it but it would make it harder to compete against the self buff classes like the Ranger if you were solo.

You also say the game was not designed around solo play...........you sure about that? What is your evidence.

A smart game is designed to support more than one play style and type-- solo group, pve/pvp, etc.

I see we are still talking about buffbots here. Here is my take on the whole thing. I have played since after the first year of DAoC and love the game to this day. Buffbots imo are not an issue at all for anyone except the folks whole only like to group. They also for some reason fear the stealther and think they can take out a whole group lol. Clearly this is untrue. The buff bot levels the playing field for those who like or do not have time to plaY for long periods of time.As far as pve goes I do not care because I personally do not like to do it but again for those who do not have time it helps them. If you do not have one then you have friends who can help you. if you are not helping other fellow players then you are hurting the realm. I have read the whole thing about puting in time etc etc and thats a lot of crap. It isnt about the haves and the have nots here. Just do your thing and let others do theirs. As far as rvr again I see no issue with it except for the ones who seem to think that this game comepletely revolves around grouping which it does not. It is personal preferance. Think of it this way by not allowing bb's you alienate a whole group of players who prefer to solo or run a stealther group. Stealth is part of the game and you should allow for that factor when you are in rvr. There is no advantage of having a bb in rvr vs the group or groups who have several healers in the group. Do like we used to do and protect your healer/healers and expect there to be stealthers from the enemy realm looking to kill them....thats rvr and thats part of DAoC. If you force players who like to or have no choice to solo in pve or pvp then you impeed their progress in the game just because you think they will have som unfair advantage. Mythic didn't have an issue with it so why should you imo.