You have a point Zack, for the most part, while I was running around Emain I saw the same 2 or 3 groups of hibs out and about basically day in and day out. Ofcourse there was the occasional pug group but, 1 or 2 wipes later they would break up and head back to Thid, PvE or just rage log. In general though the few Hib groups that ran would rarely take on new faces.

I also personally believe that the BG shifting will negatively affect end game RvR. For a large part of the Uthgard community, BGs are their preferred method of RvR, now the gap between Emain confident newbies and the veterans already out there was just widened, the people that like their BG action can now enjoy it more frequently and since the threshold at which people feel ready to compete in Emain was lowered, people might feel a better fun to time ratio to just reroll and repeat vs taking the Emain challenge. Not saying it's impossible to compete at 3LX just.. from personal experience those realm ranks do help secure wins not every time.. but enough.

RazorRamon wrote:For a large part of the Uthgard community, BGs are their preferred method of RvR

That's because it's the only viable option for casual RvR on Uthgard.

I'm not saying the BG change will solve the problem, but it's at least part of the solution. Sadly there's no sign yet that the staff wants to takes things one step further and really tackle the problem. It's more like they want to carefully ask the problem to lie down for them by showing some good intentions. That's not gonna happen.

In all fairness, the BG-bias amongst a large fraction of the player base is also somewhat self-made. The issue imho is that there is no single person or guild that would take on the job of building PUG Zergs or even 16slot groups. And if they do, usually the other realms don't. And everyone falls back on the battlegrounds for 'instant' action.

On live servers, this sort of happened automatically, just because of the larger player base and somewhat fresh eyes on the game... epic battles and what not. You could just log on, ask where the zerg was (usually at a mile gate ^^) and join in the 'fun' - but here zerging is a lot more work and in the end not quite as epic, the rare relic raid fights aside. Can't blame people for not wanting to jump through so many hoops for their fun and choose the BG over endgame RvR. Is the removal of the last BG going to solve that? I doubt it... Is it going to further hurt the player base - possibly. Is there a solution that strictly adheres to the 'live-like classic vision' - nope.

Lasastard wrote:Is there a solution that strictly adheres to the 'live-like classic vision' - nope.

Exactly. That's why being prepared to dirty your hands trying to tackle this problem seriously is a mindset your need to have. Otherwise we're going to be messing around with this issue way longer than necessary, potentially damaging a lot of players' will to play here.

Plz remove all BGs ... thats the only way to get ppl into rvr
Back in the days it was normal to go to emain with rr1 or 2!
The problem is OF cuz ppl know NF instant action and dont like the long downtime of OF, but they all think they are op with rr4 and dont want to zerg .... thats so stupid!

Cadam wrote:Plz remove all BGs ... thats the only way to get ppl into rvr
Back in the days it was normal to go to emain with rr1 or 2!
The problem is OF cuz ppl know NF instant action and dont like the long downtime of OF, but they all think they are op with rr4 and dont want to zerg .... thats so stupid!

"Back in the days", really says it all tbh. People don't have the time nor, find it fun to have a downtime of an elephant. Or to get rolled by zergs and/or high rr guild groups. If the assumption is that this attitude will change, because the bg's are gone, then you are mistaken. People play here with a whole different attitude (then back in the days).

If they don't enjoy the game anymore they will just move on (to another game, or live, or another freeshard). It's not like this will force people into RvR'ing. Or do you think the casual player will suddenly start enjoying RvR in the frontier on their rr2 unbuffed and untemplated toon? Or that these will get an invite into a group? And if a rr2 pug happends to form, what is its goal? 8vs8? Take keeps? Run in a zerg and take over AMG?

The problem is the established playerbase. They know eachother (thus will invite eachother (even for raids)) and have more cash to spend on their templates (charges). Not that I blaim them btw, but we need to find a way to make it more playerfriendly for the newcomer. Else he or she will just log out again.

But I know people will just react with; "it shouldnt be easy", "we all started with nothing", etc, etc.

Satiah wrote:The problem is the established playerbase. They know eachother (thus will invite eachother (even for raids)) and have more cash to spend on their templates (charges).

Not true.

The established playerbase plays 8v8, the only viable form of RvR in the frontiers at the moment (and stealth ofc).

What needs to be possible is casual RvR. These things can co-exist, but you can not expect the 8v8 crowd to come down to the level of the casual player or vice versa. They just don't match.

Satiah wrote:
But I knew people will just react with; "it shouldnt be easy", "we all started with nothing", etc, etc.

Well yes and no - the server aims to emulate DAoC 1.69 - and that also includes a certain level of inconvenience and 'work' to get to the RvR part of the game. That being said, there are two things that need to change.

First, the people complaining about RvR not being fun for them need to join up and figure out how to make it fun. DAoC RvR is pretty sandbox-y, and it is up to each and every player to figure out how to enjoy it on their own terms. For starters, don't go to Emain - raid keeps, attract enemies and contribute towards building a more casual RvR culture that stays off the highway that is Emain/Breifine. We had that going on Uthgard for a while but it died at some point. This is not something that Devs can do for you - 8vs8 on Uthgard is still alive because people work on making this so. The same can be true for other types of RvR, but people need to take charge of that.

Secondly tho, Uhtgard devs need to realize that they can try and recreate all possible mechanics of 1.69, but they can not recreate the player base. Live servers had 3500 players on during prime time and the game - including the size of zones etc - were designed with such numbers in mind. Currently, Uthgard runs with a 5th of that, perhaps, so obviously it is much much harder to get casual RvR going and have it being fun. It certainly doesn't help to take away features before other features to replace them a ready. For the number of players on Uthgard, a sensible solution would be to have teleporter chains, or fewer keeps (harder to do) - and while those are being discussed, taking away Thid before such things are in the game is a bit short-sighted (the same goes for Tajendi versus SI btw).

The point being that there are two sides to this coin - one is the devs not doing a good enough job to finish and polish the RvR game play and adjust it to fit Uthgard, the other is players whining about it and not realizing that a good part of the problem is their own fault.

Zarkor wrote:Not true.

The established playerbase plays 8v8, the only viable form of RvR in the frontiers at the moment (and stealth ofc).

What needs to be possible is casual RvR. These things can co-exist, but you can not expect the 8v8 crowd to come down to the level of the casual player or vice versa. They just don't match.

You say not true, but then mention that 8vs8 is the only viable form of RvR in the frontiers atm. You mention stealth, but ignore that this "requires" charges to play. As the rest of the stealthers out there basically play fully buffed.

All I read is that you agree with me. Which is fine ofcourse.

He said not true in regards to the people who know each other being part of the problem. He is correct, that doesn't matter.

Casual players need a zerg. It's no different than live, except that live has 'known' zerg leaders who do the hard work of trying to organize a bunch of casuals who care more about what their wife/kids are doing than helping their group.

It's the daoc tri-force at work.

The high RR 8 mans feed off the low RR 8 mans.
The low RR 8 mans feed off the pugs.
The pugs feed off of....nothing, unless they zerg, at which point they have a chance to feed off of both the high and low RR 8 mans.

Since right now zerging is infrequent, they run as 8 or less and die, then log off.

Is closing thid the answer to get a zerg going? I hope so...since every realm in thid has been zerging lately. For some reason though I doubt those people will magically show up in Emain after the 31st. If they did, there would be something for everyone to do.

I think you are overestimating the amount of casuals playing or wanting to play that way. Uthgard attracts a lot of "old" DAoC players that just want to enjoy the game and don't play fulltime. Be it with zerging, 8vs8, solo or even PvE. Thidranki filled that gap perfectly. Enough to get some decent rps and ra's and some nice xp, to get away from the drag of xp'ing (which it is without SH raids). If you capped out you could and try to find a decent pug. Now you're rr2L9 max and still have to PvE from 42/43 till 50. Cause I don't see people getting invited to pugs at level 43.

Also goodluck enjoying that bm or hero (or any tank) that you rolled, in the zergfights. Aswell as the realmhopping will take on a whole new level (which it already has done in thid). I'll predict a 2 realm system in the Frontier now. Albs and mids with their 2min port. As the hib zerg will need to run with walking speed to emain. Taking keeps serves no goal accept getting df. Which is fine, but what do you do once you have it and the mids and albs are enjoying emain?

Edit: Currently people realmhop in Thidranki like madass (can't say I blaim them). The hib zerg is too small to be of any use? Fine ill log on my mid or alb char and join that zerg.

Satiah wrote:Taking keeps serves no goal accept getting df.

This, imho, is a very crucial problem with Uthgard and its population. I am not sure whether keeps ever served a greater purpose on live - apart perhaps from tying into the relic guard strength. But people took it upon themselves to defend them - be it out of realm pride or the sheer fun of fighting the enemy. This sort of attitude is lacking on Uthgard, and again, can't be patched in. And I honestly can't think of a way to change that, other than trying to lower the entry barrier into RvR a bit (i.e. unnecessary time sinks need to go...like RvR sickness not being curable, and ports taking quite long for no obvious game-play related reasons). But in principle, this sort of old-school gameplay is supported, there just isn't the right spark to get it going. If the 20+ hibs that were in Thidranki just now were to move their activities to the frontiers - and the other realms did the same, everyone would have fun I reckon.

Lasastard wrote:

Satiah wrote:Taking keeps serves no goal accept getting df.

This, imho, is a very crucial problem with Uthgard and its population. I am not sure whether keeps ever served a greater purpose on live - apart perhaps from tying into the relic guard strength. But people took it upon themselves to defend them - be it out of realm pride or the sheer fun of fighting the enemy. This sort of attitude is lacking on Uthgard, and again, can't be patched in. And I honestly can't think of a way to change that, other than trying to lower the entry barrier into RvR a bit (i.e. unnecessary time sinks need to go...like RvR sickness not being curable, and ports taking quite long for no obvious game-play related reasons). But in principle, this sort of old-school gameplay is supported, there just isn't the right spark to get it going. If the 20+ hibs that were in Thidranki just now were to move their activities to the frontiers - and the other realms did the same, everyone would have fun I reckon.

Double post 4tehloose.

Lasastard wrote:

Satiah wrote:Taking keeps serves no goal accept getting df.

This, imho, is a very crucial problem with Uthgard and its population. I am not sure whether keeps ever served a greater purpose on live - apart perhaps from tying into the relic guard strength. But people took it upon themselves to defend them - be it out of realm pride or the sheer fun of fighting the enemy. This sort of attitude is lacking on Uthgard, and again, can't be patched in. And I honestly can't think of a way to change that, other than trying to lower the entry barrier into RvR a bit (i.e. unnecessary time sinks need to go...like RvR sickness not being curable, and ports taking quite long for no obvious game-play related reasons). But in principle, this sort of old-school gameplay is supported, there just isn't the right spark to get it going. If the 20+ hibs that were in Thidranki just now were to move their activities to the frontiers - and the other realms did the same, everyone would have fun I reckon.

Those 20 hibs (2fg + 4 stealthers) got rolled by 5fgm (+). At which point in both groups people logged, so its now 1fg. Which went out again and nearly killed a fg of mid stealthers but got zerged over by 3fg mids. So the bard logs plus 2 others and you're waiting for players again. Etc, etc.

Hibs always first to quit.