Outphaze wrote:

RonELuvv wrote:
**I found the post from Sethor an old GM for Uthgard. He posted the following chart of bow dmg based on several factors. He used a Saracen Scout, but the dmg variences will be the same for all archery classes. As you can see the cap dmg's from spec'ing 50 in bow as opposed to 35 in bow are not great for the amount of points spent. On a crit shot the cap difference is 56 and on a normal shot the cap difference is only 28.

5.5delay bow 16.5dps rr5 saracen scout
50bowspec: critshot-cap = 1070 | regular shot-cap = 535 | WS (using charge) = 1562
45bowspec: critshot-cap = 1052 | regular shot-cap = 526 | WS (using charge) = 1515
40bowspec: critshot-cap = 1034 | regular shot-cap = 517 | WS (using charge) = 1469
35bowspec: critshot-cap = 1014 | regular shot-cap = 507 | WS (using charge) = 1423

35 bow > 50 bow...

Thanks I was reviewing this and seems I missed this quote earlier. This is what I was looking for. Next question I have, is there a variance issue with a 50 spec vs a composite 50 spec. I understand these numbers, but I like to know the why's.

Not sure why quote didn't work...the post on bow specs.

I understand the resist calculation is not straight forward. But my problem is that when I take damage from an enemy the game delves the damage and after that comes the (-30) which is your resists. Many times I fight opponents and I get no (-30) and just a flat out damage indication. Having PD3 and SC'd temp, I should always get some sort of reduction in damage as indicated (-30).
Can someone explain this to me?

*The 30 is arbitrary and just used for example. I know the reduction is dynamic.

javarhyder wrote:

Outphaze wrote:

RonELuvv wrote:
**I found the post from Sethor an old GM for Uthgard. He posted the following chart of bow dmg based on several factors. He used a Saracen Scout, but the dmg variences will be the same for all archery classes. As you can see the cap dmg's from spec'ing 50 in bow as opposed to 35 in bow are not great for the amount of points spent. On a crit shot the cap difference is 56 and on a normal shot the cap difference is only 28.

5.5delay bow 16.5dps rr5 saracen scout
50bowspec: critshot-cap = 1070 | regular shot-cap = 535 | WS (using charge) = 1562
45bowspec: critshot-cap = 1052 | regular shot-cap = 526 | WS (using charge) = 1515
40bowspec: critshot-cap = 1034 | regular shot-cap = 517 | WS (using charge) = 1469
35bowspec: critshot-cap = 1014 | regular shot-cap = 507 | WS (using charge) = 1423

35 bow > 50 bow...

Thanks I was reviewing this and seems I missed this quote earlier. This is what I was looking for. Next question I have, is there a variance issue with a 50 spec vs a composite 50 spec. I understand these numbers, but I like to know the why's.

from my experience, this is just theory.
i've try 35, 40 , 45 and 50bow and even with 50bow, the variance on dmg is really high.
i can hit a target (exemple a ns) for 900+ with critic shot, then slam and crit again the same target, after 3/4 seconds, for 600+ (1 time on 100 u find someone with purge down ^_^)

about the 35bow, dmg was still decent, but i assure u with 50 bow there is a big difference overall.
Loomy, Pijaz and others have respec too 50 bow after some test of my crit compared with their.

anyway, like i said before, the problem for scout is not how mutch points put on bow, the real problem is WHERE TO PUT the free points u save for 35bow.

if u'r a ranger u can put on Self Buffs for red d/q (that is by far better than red d/q 75 from charge ... times ago i was doing some test on my ranger, and yellow SELF d/q 63pts, buff MORE Dex/Qui than the red d/q 75 of the charge, and that's why dex3 is important on scout ...). Whit buff skill u gain dmg add and a speed shout better ... all things REALLY USEFUL.
As ranger u can put points on cd and main weapon too, for a better performance on melee

if u are a hunter, u can put points on self buffs, and spear ... all lot similar to Ranger.

but on scout?

where u put the points?

on shield? > u will be free rp's anyway on melee for the malus of block against dual wielders. 50shield help u only if u play grp'ed giving guard to infs/mincers.
on thrust? > u can try 44 thrust for snare but i am pretty sure is useless (hard to land and useless against archers)

about the melee: we really think a 40+ thrust / slash scout can deal a decent damage? with the settings of uthgard?

u can ask Parole, he run something like 35bow 40+ slash (or thrust, i don't remember) ...

so, at the end of all, after lot of tests, i realized there isn't any other place where put points for gain benefict.
with 50bow, i crit and normal shot by far more than 35 and overall my dps is really higher.
with fe3 i get lot of times normal shot for 400+ and crit for 150/200 ...

on melee i sux, and if rr5 is down i have no chance at all to survive a hybrid melee assassin/ranger (against visible is different).

if someone find a really way and show me i am wrong, i will be happy to respec, really happy

p.s.
i know only Parole 35bow over rank rr5, all the rest after 2000 respecs, are 45 or 50.
prolly we all sux and are lemmings

... or prolly not

p.p.s.
about the 50bow compared to 35, difference, overall, is lot (we must consider variance).
i will try post some tests with Parole on a real target.

realac0 wrote:(1 time on 100 u find someone with purge down ^_^)

That's why I say play different, you can't complain about purge 3 but still think "woa nice I got a 900 crit on him in this 1% case were purge was down"

realac0 wrote:on thrust? > u can try 44 thrust for snare but i am pretty sure is useless (hard to land and useless against archers)

Well you do not get the power of your shield, especially vs archers it is the I win skill.
Since I won't exp my scout because exping just sucks, especially in alb some ideas.
You side or backslam -> crit shot (almost same damage as with 50 bow) or they purge -> snare -> run till the archer draws his bow (timer is working for you) -> just block with your shield(time is still ticking) -> reslam and you win
Also you stealth through amg all the time, even you know I'm sitting there waiting for the next easy kill.
If there is a ranger camping you can just run without stealth and search for him, you will get one hit sure but no crit and block the rest, I safed you 400 hitpoints yw. Or you just stealth again after you run through and camp as well, beeing on the good side amg.

Or you just keep posting wall of texts without having won any 1v1, claiming knowledge about scouts

@Pweet
for sure i don't win 1on1 against rank9/10 rangers, no doubt on it, and i am pretty sure even if different spec nothing change.
... but i may be wrong

on the other side, i have around 350 solo kill, mostly are assassins low rr, but i killed skalds, warriors/hero and some decent chanpions too (Onehit) ... about rangers? moslty of the full bow archer at amg die 1on1, even if start crit me with bow ...

weak targets? ... prolly, like i am a weak target for every purge3 + high rr ranger (is not only purge3 that kill me, is dual wield and just pd3).

... my advices are my experience on PLAY IT, trying different specs and different ra's.
the day u'll roll a scout, come emain, and show me u give a challenge to my Drawstab, i will be happy to respec ... for now u are only talk about paper daoc

am i wrong?

@Calteen
u say things i already tryied and i already know.
power of my shield? well, i block every normal shot and rapid fire, and moonwalking this work very well ...
but , again, work against noobs ... u, Saosin, Tzaaa etc just crit shot again and pass all my defences ... u done it lot of times, and i done it lot of times too against any type of shield tank ...

about your side/back stun tactic and 44 snare, i give u just an exemple:

how many times happen that i succesfully snare u with rr5 and while trying to kite u still killed me with bow?
or, if i can run away, u just speed shout and find me anyway?

44 snare can be a way to try, but ON MY OPINION still will not work (too hard to land, and against archers useless ... expecially rangers, have too many toys for counter everything i can do with scout ... don't forget i have a ranger too , i know pretty well the class)

trying on real rvr, things u writing, for me was a fail, even more fail than be 50bow
(block owned by crit shot and 44 snare as gimp as rr5)

just look how long u need kill me melee ...
i am full buffed, with af buff, s/c charge , d/q charge, base dex and base con.
how many times i block? how mutch time u need for kill me?
u really think after u purged my side or back stun i can survive to re-slam u again?
u really think i have the time to land 2 styles and try kite before u kill me melee or just with 1 or 2 rapid fire?

about the "u always stealth passing amg" ... well,i am supposed to pass with camo up. I understand u can be camping with camo up too spamming next target for crit (i do it too).
Problem is that, again, u NEVER PLAYED A STEALTH ALBION, u have no idea what CAN MEAN PASS AMG NOT STEALTHED (something like 5/6 rangers that instant kill u) ... come on Sneakeen, don't talk about paper daoc ...

... on conclusion, i can be totally wrong, but this is just my experience, bad or good ... i played it, and i am still playing it.

i hope some new scout read all this thread and try your spec's, or differents ones.
Then come here explain us the performance on real rvr (that is not thid, and not against noobs, i kill noobs too with my 50bow, but against high rr rangers, hunters, assassins etc etc)

when i lvl'ed scout, i was looking for a post like this, i am pretty sure can be useful.

that's all

meat803 wrote:I understand the resist calculation is not straight forward. But my problem is that when I take damage from an enemy the game delves the damage and after that comes the (-30) which is your resists. Many times I fight opponents and I get no (-30) and just a flat out damage indication. Having PD3 and SC'd temp, I should always get some sort of reduction in damage as indicated (-30).
Can someone explain this to me?

*The 30 is arbitrary and just used for example. I know the reduction is dynamic.

Hmm.. I'm not sure about you, but I only see the (-30) when I deal damage. When you take damage, you should only see the final value. (So and so hits you for 136 damage.)

I've never seen "So and so hits you for 250 (-30) damage... (Unless you are talking about mobs).

The calculations are already factored in - just because you don't see a (-30) doesn't mean they aren't there.

Example:

Orihiime wrote:Look like the dmg is a Display bug, the dmg arent counted O_O

LONG POST ONLY FOR SCOUTS ... (who don't want read wall of text can read something different ^_^)


so, i've decided to respec till rank 7 (currently rank 6l7) and try something different.
already respec 2 times on 2 differents specs.

i start to say that the difference between 35bow and 50bow is HUGE ... repeat HUGE, but lot HUGE.
Like i said on previous posts, on real rvr the AVERAGE is something like 200 less dmg on critical shot and 100 dmg less on normal shot. Where i was hitting for 900, now i hit for 650. Damage is lot variable, lot more than 50bow. I got some good shoots for 800+ on ns's/sb's so, the THEORY is correct (the cap is lot similar), but on the real rvr on average with 35bow u'r gimping the only thing where scout can be good as a ranger: bow damage

let's talk about specs.
u should know i've look lot of times for melee 1on1, while testing, so i was not going to see if i win or not, mainly i was trying to see the performance melee, w/out crit, and if i 'am able to slam again etc etc

first try 1)
the spec posted from Calteen, with 39shield and 44thrust
ra's: thoug4 mos4 ip2 (no more points for purge1) (around 1800+ hp's with red s/c + base con)
this spec is just HORRIBLE, mostly for no slam and USELESS because 44 thrust will never land.
against assassins nothing change, on the time i try to land side/back stun i am already death (even if starting with 600+ crit).
thoug4 don't help at all because I DON'T BLOCK NOTHING and SCOUT MAKE NO DAMAGE AT ALL.

from my experience on ranger, u need deal LOT OF DPS on small amount of time if u want survive vip3 spammers ...
... well, this is not the Scout attitude ... so u must kite (like my old 50bow spec ... but w/out mos5)

44 thrust totally useless, i've succefully land on some rangers but taking range i got shooted down.
impossibile land on assassins and on tanks
miss a lot mos5 on lot of occasions.
when i have killed a ns or sb (solo) is playing like on 50bow ... kiting him to death (but doing lot less damage)
against rangers no chance at all, really nothing changed

second try 2)
42shield 34stealth 39thrust 35bow
mos4 ip2 pd3 thoug3 lw1
well, this is lot better. give lot more chance to survive.
exemple: against some good rangers i was able to make they burn some ra's (purge3 ofc, ip2 always and sometimes rr5 too, even not starting with bow. Against Syuveil i got really lucky block rate, and he killed me after i crit hit on second slam with 30% hp's left (but he had rr5 still up).
combo pd3 thoug3 + red af give a good dmg reduction.
Work damn well against tanks (i killed Ogmora pretty easy starting with crit and not kiting, staying melee ... the second try because the first i got added ). Work well against Hunters too (Zaknamid killed me after use all with 30% hp's left, and i got not the jump on him).
i've try different way to use it, but what is really good is the side debuff attack speed. Have a good delve (dmg is decent).
Slam (or lvl 15 thrust offblock), they purge, then stand melee strafing with backup side debuff attack speed and hope block more than 1 or 2 times each inc ^_^ (that's the main motivation why scout sux).

i will continue test this, but seem combining this spec with a kite game like before (using rr5 for gain range ... restealth ... etc etc) can give a better chance to win (but, on my opinion, will end up more hard for opponent but i die anyway).

pro: lot harder to kill thx to pd3 thoug3 + af
malus: bow dmg sux, ofc melee damage sux too, no mos5

... what i ask my self now is:

really worth it?
i've lost all fight anyway against good targets (but i need to test better), i gimped like hell my bow dmg on leech and miss a lot mos5.

Last but really important:
having ip2, against some targets, mean they will try to escape. Happend more than 1 time that rangers and hunters, after have see me ip2, just rr5 + speed shout ... leaving me like "oO " because we don't NOTHING for follow they (or escape lol).

...

Atm, my impression is that this hybrid spec can work for scout, but is lot far from the performance of Rangers/Hunters (that with 35bow can spec something else like spear, cd, buffs etc and gain good bonuses).
Scout don't have anyway chance to be good on melee at all (for the malus on block against dual wielders).
seem to me, my win/loss % isnt mutch different from 50bow and no ip, i am just harder to kill and need longer time (good opponents kill me anyway)

will try better and let u know ... for now i confirm every post i've write before: there is nothing better to put points on scout than 50 bow dex3 fe3 mos5 ...

hope is useful
my 2cents
bye
realac0

update:

i am back at my old spec 50bow dex3 fe3 mos5 lw1

from my point of view, 35bow mos4 ip2 thoug3 pd3 is worth a try but i don' t like it at all because seem that i gimped too mutch bow (the only decent thing of my scout) and when i go melee just need more time for kill me, but at the end i die anyway.

ofc, some targets become killable (rank5/6 hybrid hunters and full bow rangers, not at all decent rangers if ip2 purge2 pd3)

... and, i really miss mos5 ...

scout need too many ra's for be really viable, something like:

mos5 dex3 fe3 pd3 thoug3 block3 ip2 purge1 lw1

with a spec like 29stealth 29thrust 50bow 42shield

... prolly will give u a good chance to be decent and not gimp anything ... killing r4/r5 guys pretty easy

is just 11l lol ... not impossible ^_^



i'am done with tests, not worth it anymore.

let me know when, playing it, u'll experience something different, i'll be happy to respec after see better performance.
/bye
realac0

I appreciate all of the debate back and forth. Doesn't help me decide unfortunately lol. Did tell me though that I will be speccing at 35 and also a higher spec to decide because both apparently are worthwhile.
Thanks. I will likely update this in the future.

good let me know, and i hope your performance will be better than mine
/good luck

all scouts I know who started as melee scout respecced sooner or later to bow spec

This huge different is 10 % more damage end of story.
The idea that in real RvR damage is better but tests won't show it is just hilarious ^^
More than 35 bow is a waste except in 8vs8, where you don't need melee for damage.
With rr8 one even get's the imba 42 shield slam back.

Everyone telling 50bow is the way to go but all are wiping all day long

Personally, I went 50 bow on my scout at first, then downgraded to 45. The solo viability is much higher from personal experience - imagine a melee upgrade from a plastic spoon to a butter knife (but still, might even get some utility styles like the side snare in the slash line) - and the difference in bow damage is hardly noticeable.

I have also tried a 35 bow spec, but the MUCH higher variance at this stage (I'm guessing sub-RR5 makes it even worse) put me off it. Also, you do NOT want stealthers evading the opening critshot.

Regarding RAs, let's face it - your enemies will mostly be other stealthers (or FGs with a MoS archer, heh), so go for the highest amount of MoS you can get. Getting a critshot and 2 rapid fire arrows stuck in an assassin before he can close in does help in defeating them. Purge helps in certain situations too (even if it's just to avoid the last poison tick and save you from /release-ing). As for "defensive" RAs (PD, IP), think twice if you really want to be in a (melee) situation where you'd consider using them. At higher RRs, FE and AugDex are worthy follow-ups to MoS 5.

In summary, if you want to spec for bow damage, adjust your play style (i.e. don't run up to a tank to slam him, use positioning to your advantage, etc). If you want melee damage, don't roll a scout. My 2 cents!