There should be no discussion at all.
Staff said 1.69 and as everyone knows 1.69 is old RA.
But they are as squishy as with mounts and take the custom track they got used to.

me instressted what the stuff think over this thread i hope he see thats a no flamme and understand thats we would the best for all i dont play daoc for rps or easy mode i just wanna have fun with all on server

cammes wrote:me instressted what the stuff think over this thread i hope he see thats a no flamme and understand thats we would the best for all i dont play daoc for rps or easy mode i just wanna have fun with all on server

Answers have been given hundred times in hundreds of similar threads.

Also its best for you to abdandon the idea that any patch on live was balanced or "fair".

Jezzmin wrote:edit: hulkgris, you don't seem to get the idea of "diversity"...it's not meant to be diversity of RAs ONE char can pick...but diversity between realms...

The diversity that some players are claiming are based on a single 30 min. timer RA , and only available on a part of classes... For some classes, this RA is likely non existant since it's useless. All other RA are exactly the same.
With NF RAs, same story, all classes have 1 specific RA, less powerfull, but at least, all have one (and for free, helpful for low RR).
On top of that, a little bit of more diversity come to the access of RA by different classes. BAoD, Anger of the God, TwF, Ichor, SoS, AM and so many other RAs are not available in the same way for all realms.

You took example of armsman & cabalist RA template. Yes, look at your template (clearly unbalanced between NF/OF...but your choice is done to go in the direction you want...), nothing will be different with a sm, a warrior, a hero, etc. They don't even have the 5L ra to gain a difference.

Celteen wrote:

HulkGris wrote:

Celteen wrote:Yeah Old RA's are not as balanced as New RA's, let's play WoW that's balanced...

If you have nothing to say, shut up.

at least you have kinda idea of forum trolling.

Like someone starting to talk about WoW ?
Anyway, you're right on 1 point :

Celteen wrote:There should be no discussion at all.

It's NF RA, and that's all (thx Ron for your post on the other thread )

Blue wrote:Due to the fact we use NF RA's there will be some customizations inbetween as already announced (Viper3 etc). We also take the freedom to remodel certain aspects of the RvR setup.

Blue wrote:Problem remains old RA's which can't be put in since several active RA's are untestable and impossible to implement properly without guessing.

Blue wrote: NF RA's are no argument to not targetting 1.69.

Maybe OF could better (even if i don't see any argument for that), but NF RA will remain.
Custom is the only solution to bring back some of old ra aspect, which were move on toa bonus, and to remove inappropriate aspect of new RA.

lol hulgris, jezzmin just stated that you should NOT mix up class diversity with realm diversity. and yet again, you just go for the class diversity. classes are diversified by their skills and can further be diversified by different specs, templates, race etc. i think their is a reason why realm abilities are REALM abilities. they dont need to diversify the game on a class level, but on a realm level. nf cleary diversifies classes more, but not the realm.

HulkGris wrote:You took example of armsman & cabalist RA template. Yes, look at your template (clearly unbalanced between NF/OF...but your choice is done to go in the direction you want...), nothing will be different with a sm, a warrior, a hero, etc. They don't even have the 5L ra to gain a difference.

sure i only took "one template"...but imho that's the most basic RAs these classes need to survive solo...for caby in grps that might be some more like wild power or motArt (which is not even accessable in nf ras)...

and that's the point...with old RAs low RRs have their "basic RAs" much faster....sure if you want mopain3, moblock3, det5, ip, purge, grapple and soldier's barricade you'll need high rr....but for ip, purge and det that's just fine...

getting det5+purge2 alone takes more then rr5 with nf RAs...

i know old RAs HAVE downsides...imho it is a waste that main-tanks have cheap det, while hybrids have none...basically main tanks should have cheap det and hybrids "normal"...

but imho the advantages are far outweighing these (more diverse realm-based-RAs, low-rr-players' help, no perma-purge, motArt, 100%moc, cheap RP, tireless for non-melees, etc. etc.)

Jezzemin, now please do the same for say a VW, Champion, Ranger/Hunter/Scout, or maybe a Reaver/Friar/Thane. By my calculations almost every class listed above will pay MORE and get LESS with Old vs New RA's. Thats what I hate about these stupid "examples". Not to mention in none of your specs did I see you figure in Tireless or Regeneration, both of which HAVE to be spec'd now. Do you also think its fair that some classes get IP for 8 points while others have to pay 14? Or how about how some classes get purge cheaper?

Either way, we can go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth on this issue all we want. Old RA's are not coming. The only way I see them coming down the road is if Live closes down and EA decides to release all of the Old code. So that is pretty much a .000001% chance of Old RA's coming.

I played with Old RA's and you know what the biggest complaint during that time was? It was that there was too much diversity in the game. So when they made the New RA's they made it every class that is comparable gets access to similiar RA's. The RR5's are where you get your diversity with New RA's. So diversity exists with New RA's every bit as much as they did with Old RA's.

All this $hit boils down to one thing:

shintari wrote:lol hulgris, jezzmin just stated that you should NOT mix up class diversity with realm diversity. and yet again, you just go for the class diversity. classes are diversified by their skills and can further be diversified by different specs, templates, race etc. i think their is a reason why realm abilities are REALM abilities. they dont need to diversify the game on a class level, but on a realm level. nf cleary diversifies classes more, but not the realm.

You have to get a view of the whole games. Looking at RA only without taking anything else into account is a nonsense.
And OF/NF, there's the same result concerning diversity. What i mean is that yes, old specific RA are now available on all realm, all realm can have Static tempest, but according to the class that could get it, you will see it more in one realm than in another.
And once again, you don't talk about 5L RA. They are realm-specific RA. They are just less powerfull. Now every class have a specific realm ability. Before, it was wrong due to useless RA (mainly for melee class). The diversity you claim about old RA is still there with new ones.

And Ron is wrong, equivalent classes from different realms have not strictly the same RA. Only pure melee and stealther have. Equivalent hybrid class have different realm abilities access, as well as mage and supports -> that's a little bit of diversity between realm.

And with olds RAs, there were no difference at all for pure melee (class specific ra for melee class were just a joke), while in NF, RA 5L differs.

As said Ron, the grass is always greener on the other side.

HulkGris wrote:You have to get a view of the whole games. Looking at RA only without taking anything else into account is a nonsense.

why dont you start on your own and see the game as a whole. you are talking about some class based concerns. so what. im talking about the gameplay in general and how the vast majority of uthgard rvr population (i.e. the non perma guildgroups/setgroups) would profit from this change. every newcomer, every pug, every once-in-a-while guildgroup will have a much easier time in rvr. so yeah, why dont you start to see the game as a whole?

RonELuvv wrote:I played with Old RA's and you know what the biggest complaint during that time was? It was that there was too much diversity in the game.

so what? if uthgard is supposed to be classic, then go for it. who complained about the "diversity"? for sure not the rr4 groups that could finally get down a rr10 group because they wouldnt just ra dump them over and over and over again. uthgard setting is so heavily RR-based and favouring, it just sucks. i dont even feel like rerolling a caster because i know it will take months for me to get a decent rr for the current stick-wars or 16+ midslots.

shintari wrote:

RonELuvv wrote:I played with Old RA's and you know what the biggest complaint during that time was? It was that there was too much diversity in the game.

so what? if uthgard is supposed to be classic, then go for it. who complained about the "diversity"? for sure not the rr4 groups that could finally get down a rr10 group because they wouldnt just ra dump them over and over and over again. uthgard setting is so heavily RR-based and favouring, it just sucks. i dont even feel like rerolling a caster because i know it will take months for me to get a decent rr for the current stick-wars or 16+ midslots.

So let me get this straight... You say this change is about giving low RR's a chance against high RR groups. Sorry, I'm calling complete and total BS on that. Ok, maybe if a high RR group just got done with a big fight with another high RR group and used every single RA, AND the low RR group had everything up and played great they might have a chance to win. Oh wait, that exact same situation exists NOW with New RA's.

You say Uthgard setting is so heavily RR based, but you misspoke. Dark Age of Camelot HAS ALWAYS BEEN RR BASED!! This game, even during the days of Old RA's, was RR based. High RR's will beat most low RR's when everything is considered equal. If you honestly think that by going from New to Old RA's that suddenly a PUG of RR4-5 players is going to go in and kill the set guild group with all RR10+ toons then you sir are an idiot. NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN. Well let me rephrase that, its not going to happen anymore or less then already happens. I have seen low RR groups beat high RR groups on this server (Built to Last killed several high RR groups early on). I've seen low RR players kill high RR players (I killed serveral 8L+ toons and even a 10L+ toon on my hunter when he was 4L+). You all think its RR that makes the difference. That is only one aspect. RR+Template+potions+charges=consistant success. I would also throw in communication if we are talking groups. Increased timers on RA's fixes one tiny little detail. It will not suddenly make a RR4-5 PUG group a great group.

Really what you are saying Shintari, and everything you have posted comes down to this, you think that by going to Old RA's that casters are going to receive this HUGE boost because now they will have MoC at full amount every 30 minutes and it costs CHEAPER than it does now. Great, so once every 30 minutes your caster will be a bit more powerful. Woo hoo... So lets just add another 5+ years of work that can never truly be completed so you can play a caster a tad bit easier.

P.S.- Fought a cabalist that was 5L9 last night. I am 7L0 on my hunter. I fought a decent fight, had all charges/pots up, and had all my RA's up. He beat me straight up. So please drop this whole QQ fest about casters. Maybe learn to play your toon a lil better. There are plenty of good casters on this server that do great in both group and solo settings. Quit blaming the RA settings and look in the mirror.

why would i spec moc. dude, i never wrote it. but thanks for alleging. its your shortsighted way of thinking that probably brought u to this assumption. and i never talked about caster. i just said i didnt wanna roll a caster. but i wouldnt wanna roll another tank or supporter atm, either, because i wouldnt like to get them up. old ra's especially helps supporters to gain the basics fast. but ye, im probably insanely bad and thats why i need rr, ill give you that. be happy mate

what brings me to my assumption is my experience, that even with good players you will have a hard time on uthgard (just take prime a recent example) while you can easily sustain your edge with high rr vs pugs etc (just take DG as a example. or yeah for that sake, take RJ atm ). i think noone would disagree that uthgard rvr is heavily RR-favouring at the moment. except maybe you.

and no, especially on live, daoc is not much about RR right now. its way more skill-based. RR doesnt count as much. RR didnt count as much in a proper 1.69 setup. but it does in 1.69 with new ra's.

but meh, i guess you wont get the point anyway. not worth the effort of trying to argue here

shintari wrote: and i never talked about caster.

shintari wrote:i dont even feel like rerolling a caster because i know it will take months for me to get a decent rr for the current stick-wars or 16+ midslots.

shintari wrote:old ras help low rrs to gain a competetive edge on uthgard. they get the critical ra way earlier and will not get ra dumped at inc. i can understand why DG would not like it. there are so many more thinks it equals out on a class-level: it helps to adjust to the slow casting speed.

Your right, I have no idea where I came up with the idea of you talking about casters in this thread...

it is called examples. also, the last one, applies to support, too. and i mentioned it would equal out alot on class level and named a few examples.

but i guess playing rangers and hunters do give the insights necessary to understand the specific context of uthgard rvr gameplay.

ok well, here is another one: why would groups that twinked on another realm log back to their main realm if there is a serious enemy group out. oh wait, because it just sucks to face them with rr4. same players, higher rr = et voila, works again. and now its your turn to tell me all about setup and realms and how it is not rr-related.

I vote for Shintari to test and implement Old RA's. He can give out his email address and respond to all the "I HATE OLD RA's " emails. Go...

I'll take either ra. I just appreciate it being free and a few hours of relaxation a night.

Blue wrote:Also its best for you to abdandon the idea that any patch on live was balanced or "fair".

OF was balanced realm against realm. Where were you running groups in RvR that this was not the case?