if u know how to use twisting u will have FEW need of sere, not all chants use pow, learn to twist to keep endu of grp m8s and ure pow bar up

in pve serenety is not needed in pvp in long fights i run out of mana after 9 mins when iam low on end twisting might cause me some times to miss a style so i leave open endu chant since its the most important chant for the grp. Well its true moving doing styles and focusing on doing right your job in a grp in pvp while playing chants is difficult.This explains ofc why power of paladins after long fights is low still you are needed to chant move and do attack styles all toghether if you want to do a decent job in rvr.

And most important dont forget you need to sprint like 70% of a 8v8 fight.Keeping the right balance between all those things is something that even a 10rr like me havent perfected.

Byun wrote:Do you really want to compare Starcraft apm with paladin gameplay?

They key is: APM. The game doesn't matter, as twisting is a set of repetitive actions.

a) Minimum: heal chant, endo.
b) Throw in cold resists (10, 20) as we don't run friars.
c) Then AF chant (99, or 127?) taking mages to 600+AF which works well with PD and BOF.
Yup, I'd rather free up the clerics spec af, as I'm always running to get guarded or
kiting tanks.

4 things, or at the very least 3 things you need to twist to be optimal.

Then throw in what skdante talks about: situational stuff like when to do what, snares, taunt,
interrupts, guard, intercept, slam assist etc. Without even talking about the 4-5 people the Paladin
single handed is supposed to keep alive.

skdante wrote:ok a few tips for twisting
...
explanation of double heal if you chant endurance first or any other chant and after you chant heal chant as the chant that stays open
till your next chanting before heal chant opens again for chanting (timer of heal chant is over) you get 1 extra heal so in 8 sec you get the 2 heals that you chanted and 1 extra before heal chants timer resets this will help you to keep hp up so you can pull without resting.
....

wow, that stuff just broke my mind - i should stay in the hibernian part!

sorry harkon that was an explanation of the soo called double healing i kinda failed it made it way 2 complicated

Infamous wrote:

Byun wrote:Do you really want to compare Starcraft apm with paladin gameplay?

They key is: APM. The game doesn't matter, as twisting is a set of repetitive actions.

I lol'd

apm is a factor in all real time games but for typical twisting is not a key factor .if you play paladin for some time your fingers will do the twisting without you even commanding them

skdante wrote: your fingers will do the twisting without you even commanding them

Hmmm, be care, it could be considered as a kind of automated action then... ban !

Does anyone have any old videos or screen caps of the pulse durations for chants from live?
on uthgard all cahnts seem to be 6 second pulse 6 second duration.

I cant seem to find a patch note saying they changed the durations, but you cant twist chants here the same way one could on live

On live iir most chants were a little seconds longer in duration than the pulse. i forget if that was to fix the rez sickness bug or just the way it always was, but the results of it were that you could keep 2 chants up at once if you:

1) started chant A, let it pulse once
2) tap endo.
3) tap chant B, let it pulse
4) randomly mash whatever remainign chants you wanted, including endo
5) repeat

and that would keep endo up all the time, and keep chant A and B up 99% of the time (due to latency issues and depending on the pulse/duration of chants used). obviously the other random chants hit would only be up for 50% of the time (6 seconds out of a 12 second cycle).

you can keep endo up all the time, since it doesn't have cooldown

yes and no. you can keep endo up all the time, but cant keep another chant up 100% with it. on uthgard the endo duration is shorter (well actually equal to) than the pulse time of other chants.

currently i usually double tap endo and then wait until its about to fade, then tap it again. it costs some in endurance to start/stop the chant all the time, but it uses no power that way. then i just add in other chants for the 5 seconds out of every 8 by hitting them once whenever they are up and useful. its not ideal, but its the best i can work out.

thanks for describing twisting ;P

I think figured out what it was I was missing that's different on utghard (and no its not +duration gear, my pally never used that, and twisting was always different on live than here). I am 99% sure its 25% duration bonus due to spec. It's a common bonus that often gets missed and shows up in out bug report threads, and the math matches what i remember the best. I just need someone on live to test the chant durations to prove it so that paladins will get a much needed boost in 3 years when the bug report gets approved. live now allows double twisting so yuod have to roll an extra chant in there to make sure it canceled the first, but the principal is the same.

what i remember:
-all chants pulsing slightly more often than their durations. (check, 1.25*delve would give durations all about 1 second longer than delve. iir live uses a truncation method to display so 5*1.25=6 not 6.25), but has actual durations in the tenths of a second.

on live you could twist as follows:
endo, 5s chant A for a pulse plus a tiny bit), endo, 5 or 6s chant B for a pulse plus a tiny bit. this would sometimes cause one of the two main chants (A or B) to flicker off for a fraction of a second if one was a 6s chant and the other was a 5s duration (noticible only if you had permanant buffs cast on you after you started twisting because they would change positions on your active buffs list if they dropped). but endo would never drop meaning that endo duration was longer than a 6s pulse.

-----------------------------------------------
why the math works to match exactly what i remember
endo duration 5s*1.25 = 6.25s
celerity duration (used as example just because that was what everyone had to twist in rvr) 5s*1.25 = 6.25s
soul ward duration 5s*1.25 = 6.25s
AF chant duration 6s*1.25 = 7.5s

assuming .1 seconds per button press and 0.15s allowed for latency to allow chant pulses...

------
endo plus two 5s chants:

t = 0.0 activate endo (will fade at t = 6.25ish)
t = 0.1 activate Chant A (5s pulse)
t = 5.1 (ish depends on latency) chant A pulses (will drop at t = 11.35ish
t = 5.25 (some lag allowed to make sure it pulsed) reactive endo (it had not faded yet, note that 5<t<6.2, will now fade at 11.5ish = 1.05ish)
t = 5.35 active Chant B (5s pulse)
t = 10.35 (ish) Chant B pulses (will drop at t = 16.6 = 6.25).
t = 10.45ish repeat

results match what i remember:
all chants always up.

------
endo plus a 5s chant A and 6s Chant B:

t = 0.0 activate endo (will fade at t = 6.25ish)
t = 0.1 activate Chant A (5s pulse)
t = 5.1 (ish depends on latency) chant A pulses (will drop at t = 11.35ish
t = 5.25 (some lag allowed to make sure it pulsed) reactive endo (it had not faded yet, note that 5<t<6.2, will now fade at 11.5ish)
t = 5.35 active Chant B (6s pulse)
t = 11.35 (ish) Chant B pulses (will drop at t = 18.85 = 7.5). Chant A may drop around now plus or minus a tiny bit for latency.
t = 11.45ish repeat

results match what i used to experience on live exactly:
- endo chant is always up even with 2 other chants
- 5s chant when twisted with another 6s chant will drop for a fraction of a second (0.2s in the above example, i think toying around with a (insert bad word here) on live I got it down to less than 0.1s before it would miss button presses or chant pulses sometimes. I no longer have that (insert bad word) tho because i mailed it to a friend to use and USPS ate it.
- 6s other chant stays always up

------------------------------
I'm so sure this is the problem. its been bugging me since i rolled my pally on uthgard over a year ago but i could never put my finger on which mechanic was wrong.

If anyone can demonstrate the chant durations on live it would be awesome. problem with delving the icons while they are up is that youd have to see the time remaining, but that truncates so it would need to be caught in the very fist instant of a pulse to show a time greater than delve. or maybe it would appease the devs if we could show a 5 second time reaming on a 5s spell. alternatively if we could catch the 6s pulse showing 7s remaining maybe that would work?

Netchel wrote:If anyone can demonstrate the chant durations on live it would be awesome. problem with delving the icons while they are up is that youd have to see the time remaining, but that truncates so it would need to be caught in the very fist instant of a pulse to show a time greater than delve. or maybe it would appease the devs if we could show a 5 second time reaming on a 5s spell. alternatively if we could catch the 6s pulse showing 7s remaining maybe that would work?

should be able to test this using different weapon speeds and dmg-add-chant:

use level 3 pala with fast weapon...check how many swings can be done when activating dmg-add-chant once from first tick to fade...check same on uth...ofc with sme qui etc.

i noticed on uth for example, that with a 2.5 weap i get off on dmg-added hit more then with a 2.8 weap...which is logical ...but this effect can be used to compare uth-behaviour and live behaviour

maybe live test itself is enough...maybe in log it is shown, that effect is longer then 6s (like 7s or even 8 between first and last hit with dmg-add)

edit: can't promise to get to do this test any time soon...however, it should be easy to test...just make level 3 pala on uth and live (takes like 15-20 minutes i guess, can even be done parallelly) and test it with different weapons...best to use the same weapons in terms of speed to be accurate...

another edit: i forgot to add, that the way you described it, is also the way I remember it...when a chant pulse ended you could immediately or almost immediately reuse it - here on uth you gotta wait 1-2s before doing so, which is not how i remember it from live...

did a test on live with the behaviour is mentioned above:

first of all: on live 2 chants can be active...so you gotta switch 3 chants, for the first to fade

second: it worked the same way on uth as on live...i tested the following:

- i had no chant up (or some other like endu)
- i triggered dmg-add and right after it heal (i had lost some hp)
- right after the second heal-pulse ticked (i.e. after 6s) i attacked
- NO dmg add was active - neither on uth nor on live
- tested this several times and i had no lag, so i guess chant-length really is 6s

tested with af instead of heal (with pulse-msgs on) but it was the same...

too bad...maybe i misunderstood the behaviour you explained above, but actually it seems like uth behaviour is correct