borog wrote:the Stealth Nerf i think they refer to was removing any weapon from the savage that was faster than 5.0 speed.. or was it 4 speed?

The speed at which Savages can no longer use a 2h is 5.5. They can use 5.4 and below. I believe the main gripe about Savage 2h is the lack of defense penetration bonus 2h/duel wielders aren't getting applied as on live. I even see many skalds using 1h/shield now...that should tell you something.

I had considered trying 2h on my Savage but until something significant is done to address Def. Pen., I'll stick with h2h. The styles and thrust dmg works well with other dmg types in mid groups anyways.

EternitySphere wrote:I believe the main gripe about Savage 2h is the lack of defense penetration bonus 2h/duel wielders aren't getting applied as on live.

That prompted me to check code.

Currently on Uthgard 2H will halve the parry chance. Interestingly dual wield does not, its there but commented out.

Theres also an extreme defense penetration bonus for more than one attacker.

as far as the code is concerned, does H2H count the same for DefPen as Dual Wield?

Also you say the number of attackers has an extreme effect on defense. Do pets count towards this as in another fix you suggested that pets count as RVR for resistances. Would the same apply here?

This could be big for pet spam classes that can effectively nullify the defense of all enemies.

Yes a pet is counted as a full attacker. If you pet spam a target you will nearly nullify defenses.

Under the consideration that some things are propably not tested on live I give you some facts straight from code. I believe that parry penalty is not correct.

- Parry is penalized by the factor (1 / attacker count), means two attackers 50% of parry left, 3 attackers only 33% of original parry left
- Parry is halved when attacked with 2H
- Parry is not influenced by DW (confirmed by Grab Bag from 2003)

- Evade is penalized by 3% per each additional >melee< attacker. 3 attackers means 6% reduction on Evade.
- Evade is halved when attacked with DW
- Evade is penalized by 80% if attacked with bow

Interesting!

But how is H2H counted?
And are the pens also working on Shield?

Cause a H2H-Savage has no chance to even hit a guarded target.

H2H does currently not influence defense penetration as far as I've seen.

Blue wrote:H2H does currently not influence defense penetration as far as I've seen.

H2H should operate like duel wield.

Blue, since you were nice enough to look into it, can you perhaps look over block? I know right now that many skalds are going 1h/shield rather then 2h because duel wielders and 2h users get blocked as much as 1h users. Duel wield and 2h both shouldn't be getting blocked as often.

EternitySphere wrote:

Blue wrote:H2H does currently not influence defense penetration as far as I've seen.

H2H should operate like duel wield.

Blue, since you were nice enough to look into it, can you perhaps look over block? I know right now that many skalds are going 1h/shield rather then 2h because duel wielders and 2h users get blocked as much as 1h users. Duel wield and 2h both shouldn't be getting blocked as often.

Although I couldn't wish for more, I'm afraid that h2h should work as a single one hand weapon. I've heard rumors that it has been changed recently on the live server, but I'm quite certain that for a long long time h2h had no effect on defense penetration.

Furthermore - and certainly offtopic in here - I'm rather sure that 2h defense penetration was inversed to dual wield: bonus against parry, nothing against block whereas duel wield penetrates block easier and has no effect on parry.

it really makes no sense that 2 handed users reduce parry more than dual wielders.

i would have thought it would be harder to parry someone that was trying to hit you with two weapons.

Perhaps parrying 2H is only penalized if oneself doesn't use 2H. Thats not tested. I can imagine that there should be no difference if 2H hits on 2H.

Blue wrote:H2H does currently not influence defense penetration as far as I've seen.

It does in DoL sources
in GameLiving, the makeAttack is done with the dual wield boolean set to true when this test is false :

Code: Select all

   if (!owner.CanUseLefthandedWeapon
       || (mainWeapon != null && mainWeapon.Item_Type != Slot.RIGHTHAND && mainWeapon.Item_Type != Slot.LEFTHAND)
       || leftWeapon == null
       || leftWeapon.Object_Type == (int)eObjectType.Shield)
   {
   ...
   }
   else
   {
   ...
      mainHandAD = owner.MakeAttack(m_target, mainWeapon, style, mainHandEffectiveness, m_interruptDuration, true);

...

// Make Attack definition
protected virtual AttackData MakeAttack(GameObject target, InventoryItem weapon, Style style, double effectiveness, int interruptDuration, bool dualWield)


The "owner.CanUseLefthandedWeapon" is defined in GamePlayer as

Code: Select all

   public override bool CanUseLefthandedWeapon
   {
      get
      {
         return CharacterClass.CanUseLefthandedWeapon(this);
      }
   }


And the CharacterClass.CanUse... function is override in SavageClass, in order to return true :

Code: Select all

public class ClassSavage : ClassViking
   public override bool CanUseLefthandedWeapon(GamePlayer player)
   {
      return true;
   }

To go back to the savage research - I'll see if I can do some h2h damage testing with my 38 savage tonight. Dummies are in Mularn outside Jordheim right?
I'll craft a few weapons for testing with, and maybe even grab a 2h to test (with no spec in it ofc). Should I craft test weapons with identical quality to remove that variable?

Kerw wrote: but I'm quite certain that for a long long time h2h had no effect on defense penetration.

Are you sure that this was not a false rumor ?
Even if dual penalty was applied, H2H user could have face a higher block rate due to the lower WS, compared to zerk. Zerker are on a higher WS table and their STR stat is strongly higher than the (STR+DEX)/2 of savage.

HulkGris wrote:

Kerw wrote: but I'm quite certain that for a long long time h2h had no effect on defense penetration.

Are you sure that this was not a false rumor ?
[...]

As I wrote: "I'm quite certain", hence not sure about it. Nobody has shown me any proof nor have I asked for it. However, the fact that the delay of the lefthand did not influence the swing speed of the mainhand (as ist does with left axe) could serve as an indicator that h2h never counted as dual wield and did therefore never profit from these advantages. Yet it seems, according to incubi's findings, that the offhand delay influences the mainhand swingspeed. There might be something mixed up in the code or my memories...

Someone please do some tests and share your results in a convinient manner that doesn't take much effort from my side .