Blue wrote:You misunderstand the council. Its more an advisor for the staff and for having more efficient discussions. The decisions will be made like before but with more players involved. Critical exploitable upcoming changes won't be discussed. I assume that in the case decisions were made, the council will emit news from time to time.

I appreciate that exploitable bugs will not be discussed with a player based council, however, should something like the exclusion of barrels be discussed (as an example), then surely they would have foreknowledge and can stock up on barrels knowing that a change is going to be implemented?

I'm not against a council of representatives at all, but i do like to be able to think things through from all angles.

It's surprising what gets missed during the excitement of a new idea.

Lets see first how this will develope. We shouldn't speculate too much.

Papabear wrote:

Luydor wrote:Heho Papabear,

We need leaders who demand no zerging of enemy by their group. We need leaders that inforce fair play. There are leaders out there and they must step up and show the rest the way. There will always be trouble makers that will try to cause issues in the community, Dont give them attention. Ignore them and they will either fall in line or quit.

I strongly disagree with the above statement against zerging. It is my opinion that the original design of DAoC was Realm vs Realm (i.e. zerg vs zerg). Not 8v8 or 1v1 arena matches. It is also my opinion that the destruction of DAoC began when the game focused on the wants of the elite or hardcore player. The gap between casual player and hardcore player became too much with the creation of toa. Not to mention the abuse of players who wanted to rvr by elitist players who criticized them for zerging.

I understand that players who are extremely good at rvr want to have challenging fights. However, if you want casual players out in rvr, then IMO realm vs realm is the way to get them out there. Forcing them to only have 8 players in their pug group and then fight elite groups 8v8 is not going to work .

If the devs see rvr as nothing more than 8v8 or 1v1 arena matches then you will probably not see many casual players in the frontiers imo.

Edit: I am not against 8v8 or 1v1 matches. If the devs want to encourage the 8v8 and 1v1 I would propose that bgs be set up for those two play styles. Then a policy of "red its dead" be encourage in the frontier.

Zyviel wrote:

Papabear wrote:

Luydor wrote:Heho Papabear,

We need leaders who demand no zerging of enemy by their group. We need leaders that inforce fair play. There are leaders out there and they must step up and show the rest the way. There will always be trouble makers that will try to cause issues in the community, Dont give them attention. Ignore them and they will either fall in line or quit.

I strongly disagree with the above statement against zerging. It is my opinion that the original design of DAoC was Realm vs Realm (i.e. zerg vs zerg). Not 8v8 or 1v1 arena matches. It is also my opinion that the destruction of DAoC began when the game focused on the wants of the elite or hardcore player. The gap between casual player and hardcore player became too much with the creation of toa. Not to mention the abuse of players who wanted to rvr by elitist players who criticized them for zerging.

I understand that players who are extremely good at rvr want to have challenging fights. However, if you want casual players out in rvr, then IMO realm vs realm is the way to get them out there. Forcing them to only have 8 players in their pug group and then fight elite groups 8v8 is not going to work .

If the devs see rvr as nothing more than 8v8 or 1v1 arena matches then you will probably not see many casual players in the frontiers imo.

I don't think Papabear statement was against realm vs realm (or zerg vs zerg if you prefer), but against unfair behaviour in general and most of all in RvR. I agree with you (and he wrote the same thing if you read well) that the opposition between "elitists" and "casuals" is something ruining the fun for all, but you have to understand that fair means that just everyone have the right to play the way he prefer and everyone should respect others style and fun.

My opinion is that this is possible only with a fair approach of the whole RvR community to both realm mates and realm enemies. E.g. if there is an enemy trio out, no ned to zerg them with 20 toons, same thing for every other form of RvR, or if a solo realm mate is fighting an enemy in a fari 1vs1 is really disrespectful to add his fight.
No one forbid you to go emain with a zerg if you can find an enemy zerg and have fun togheter, but you can't just add everything everywere just because of the realm vs realm concept.
This is retarded and above all it ruins the fun of your realm mates and enemies, remember they are part of this community like you.
Zergi vs zerg itself is not a plague and 8vs8, 1vs1, ecc are not an elitistical form of gaming.
Unfairness and imbalance are the two real obstacles to everyone's fun imho.

There is and there has always been room for every style to play. It just requires a few more players plus at least one zerg leader on each realm. 90% of the problems on the server are community based, just take holsten as an example, If he wants he can easily get atleast 2 fgs of casual players for a zerg. It just takes some effort and a leader. I have to admit that i cleary favor 8v8, I just play that game for so long that a zerg is nothing special or exciting anymore so everything that's left is the challenge and there is not really much of a challenge in zerging. Nonetheless I don't want this server to become a pure 8v8 nor solo server, every kind of player has to be considered somehow, and people should not be blamed for their favored style.

IMO it is wrong to put any kind of rules for fighting in the frontier. If there are to be rules then I think it is only fair that pvers not be ganked by stealthers or anyone else if they venture into a rvr area to pve.

I did edit my previous post to propose two bgs be set up for 8v8 and 1v1 play styles. However, please leave the frontiers as I believe they were intended to be which imo is a realm vs realm setting with no artificial rules, or realm mates verbally mistreating realm mates for adding or zerging.

Zyviel, I understand your sentiments. I think Celad said it best tho, nobody is saying you cant zerg and nobody is saying you must 8 vs 8 or 1 vs 1, Celad is just saying that if you want people to respect the way you choose to play then the best way to start that is by respecting others way of playing.

As an example, Zyviel, what happens when you go out to AMG solo and you get killed by a 6 man? You will prolly try to find some more people to come out with you for starters, but what if you dont find anyone? Will you keep going back out? I doubt it, and then that 6 man will get bored and complain about no inc. So now you had 7 people out in RvR and now it is 0. This is what Celad was talking about with being "fair". These are not rules, anyone can kill an enemy from another realm and nobody can tell you not to add or zerg or whatever, but what will happen is if you win by always just killing whatever you come across regardless of #'s then you end up with no action.

If you wish to zerg and run with 3 fg's around Emain then go for it. If you wish to kill duo, trio's, and solo's with said zerg go for it. However, when there is no action because the other realms cant get that many people together then you cant complain about the lack of action. During American prime time there is rarely enough people on in all 3 realms to put together a Hib/Alb/and Mid 8 man team, nevermind 3 seperate zerg's.

Also, to those that use the "RvR Realm vs Realm" argument, you are aware that everything from 1 vs 1 fights all the way up to zerg vs zerg fights all constitute RvR right? My ranger solo fighting a pally is RvR as much as 4 fg's of Mids vs 3.5 fg's of Albs is.

I understand that 8v8 and 1v1 can be fun. I have played in pug vs pug in the bgs and it was fun. I have been in solo fights and tho they can be exciting I'm just not someone who likes to play solo.

However, after you get out of the bgs what is a casual player facing? He is low realm rank and joins a pug to go fight in the frontier. Against a high rr, well organized, elite group that pug will probably not record a single kill.

I propose that a bg should be created for 8v8. Rules of conduct can be created for this bg as needed. I also propose a bg should be created for the 1v1 with appropriate rules as well.

In rvr areas I propose that it should be realm vs realm. Not my 8 vs some 8 from another realm or my 1 vs a 1 from another realm. If an enemy stealther ganks someone in a rvr zone or higher numbers defeat lower numbers then that is the way it is. It's red it's dead should be the rule. Any verbal abuse or even complaining about adding or zerging in the frontier or darkness falls would be met with a 3 day ban.

This is just what I propose to do if it were up to me. I wanted to give my opinion on this and now I will leave it in the hands of the developers.

i like that new logo btw
could be a good choice for favicon Fabu!

i guess it depends on how one defines zerging. if you go out 8 vrs 8 with all low rr chars against a group with rr9'10 and such.. is it still a fair fight? just because the numbers are the same does not constitute the fight is a fair one. isnt that zerging in it's self.

but then people will say a low RR grp can kill a high RR group... tell that to two di3's

Krossfire wrote:i guess it depends on how one defines zerging. if you go out 8 vrs 8 with all low rr chars against a group with rr9'10 and such.. is it still a fair fight? just because the numbers are the same does not constitute the fight is a fair one. isnt that zerging in it's self.

but then people will say a low RR grp can kill a high RR group... tell that to two di3's

oh that point again?
come on guys that has been dicusses how often already? 13579 times?
if you want i can look up at least 3 diffrent forum topics with exactly this topic

so what about the community news and the councils?

RonELuvv wrote:Zyviel, I understand your sentiments. I think Celad said it best tho, nobody is saying you cant zerg and nobody is saying you must 8 vs 8 or 1 vs 1, Celad is just saying that if you want people to respect the way you choose to play then the best way to start that is by respecting others way of playing.

Agreed - it is about respecting others. Celad was right that I am not against zerging. I was involved in alb vs mid zerg one night 20+ players in both realms it was epic. Problem is I rarly see that many people during my play times. For example tonight there are 150 totals players on server which would be about 50 per realm on avg and most are under 50.

Papa

Zyviel wrote:IMO it is wrong to put any kind of rules for fighting in the frontier. If there are to be rules then I think it is only fair that pvers not be ganked by stealthers or anyone else if they venture into a rvr area to pve.

We're going heavily OT now so it's better if we stop here, but this statement of you is really hilarious.
If xpers go pve in an RvR area they know this area is RvR and they gain a bonus in xp points for that. They take a risk and if they're lucky they have a major gain in what they need atm: faster xp. This is fair. The xp bonus is here because of this. No one forbid them to exp in a strictly pve zone, they chosed to be in an RvR zone for the bonus, but this have a risk and they know it.
At the same time e.g. a soloer don't have the choice to go in another place with other soloers (have been some experiments in the past but all failed because of gankers or because of the risk to look like arranged fights) because there is not another area. And this is DAoC, a dedicated area for 1vs1 or 8vs8, ecc, is completely inapt. This is a community issue, not a game issue.

And I don't want any "rule" in RvR. It's just common sense! If you meet a solo and you kill him with a trio has he any chance? In the same way if you are in a 4man, inc a trio and kill them I can't blame you, in the end they have some chances and they can easily find a fourth man (for now - let's see what the future brings). It's not rigid math, it's just common sense: 3vs4 is ok, 3vs8 it's not.

i would have thought the elite groups would welcome the zerg.

What better way to prove their superiority than by defeating numbers much greater than their own?

Well, I could probably add something to each of your posts . As Celad, Zack and others stated before, things in life are never black or white, it's always some shade of grey. Yeah, blinded rvr 8v8 elitism is wrong, and so is mindless zerging. I got zerged a lot of times and accepted it as a part of this game. However, I don't think we should focus on things like "When game creators made this game, they had red is dead in mind". Aye, maybe they did, but game is still what you make of it, and not just following someone's idea blindly. Zerging is fun and 8v8 is fun, but we need to find some balance. For example, a solo player finally gathers cash for his new template, buffs up with charges and pots, spends time to get to AMG or any place where he is fighting, has a close call 1v1 fight that could go either way at some point. Around 40% of his and his enemy's health, you see a bunch of Addengarde rr11 guys adding and killing his enemy. If all players in that group truly have red is dead mentality in their mindset and believe that is the correct way to play the game, I will never argue and will not mind if they add me 1000 times. However, I could bet anything on the fact that maybe two people in that full group have "red is dead" set of rules, and other six are nothing but RPS whores, which is pretty sad. Adding cause of few RPS and ****** up your realm mate's fight like that is just bad manners and makes you hated by your own realm. Hibernian high RR groups should be taken as an example of good manners in this aspect. Since they have realm ranks, they are not RPS whores and mostly just seek challenge and nice fights. I have never seen any of them add to any of 8v8 fights or kill a solo or a duo just to get few realm points.


Also, if we are talking about prime time, I don't mind full "red is dead" mentality, cause you never know how many pugs are out and you can get added by nearly anyone, so if your call is to eliminate possible adders before a challenging fight, it might be a wise one and I will also never argue about it or call out people for adding . However, if we are talking about times when server population is low, like the US prime time or even past US prime time, I think full groups should probably respect soloers or small groups. Well, I kill them from time to time, but that is only if some of us jump around them and hug them, and they mezz us or attack us . I guess everyone has his own idea how RvR should look, but I think we all know what is cool, and what is not . Everyone should be encouraged to play the game in the way they like, but I think we can always find a way to play it like that and still not be RPS whores.


As for the Papa Bear issue, I also strongly support him as representative of Midgard US time zone. I'm European, but I do play US time, especially during the weekends. Papa is a great guy, always there to help, never had any problems in RvR or PvE with him and even if he doesn't talk to every single person, I don't think any of the guild masters in our alliance will have a problem telling him their guild's view on anything on the server and in that way giving him a better idea what's going on(in all time zones).