Blue wrote:Zarkor, your negative attitude is disturbing me.

Trust me I would be glad to take on a positive attitude, but the way things are done around here prevent me from doing so. Real shame.

Abydos wrote:Do not turn this into a barrel topic. That matter is closed. No further replies about that please.

Edit - just to be clear, this isn't just about the alchemy change, this is about everythign in general and the "livelike" argument. Now that they see the "livelike" argument doesn't work as much anymore, they're adding a new argument, imho.

EternitySphere wrote:

Edit - just to be clear, this isn't just about the alchemy change, this is about everythign in general and the "livelike" argument. Now that they see the "livelike" argument doesn't work as much anymore, they're adding a new argument, imho.

You may have overlooked one fact in this whole discussion. The player council was not an idea by the staff. Lyudor made the proposal. This has nothing to do with "livelike" arguments which will be used in future too as we recreate DAoC here.

Blue wrote:

EternitySphere wrote:

Edit - just to be clear, this isn't just about the alchemy change, this is about everythign in general and the "livelike" argument. Now that they see the "livelike" argument doesn't work as much anymore, they're adding a new argument, imho.

You may have overlooked one fact in this whole discussion. The player council was not an idea by the staff. Lyudor made the proposal. This has nothing to do with "livelike" arguments which will be used in future too as we recreate DAoC here.

That's not the point Blue. You can't say to the players "hey i had an idea, we'll have a council of players that can be a good intermediary between us and the staff!, I'll be the leader, and those i've already chosen will be your representatives!" and still think that everyone will agree in being rapresented by some people picked in a subterranean way by an autoelected leader.

The simple fact that the head of this charade is asking to people to suggest rapresentatives in pm (so the complete playerbase won't know who is not chosen) so he (just he?!) will pick who is right on the base of some unclear considerations, it's a joke.

The fact that this whole thing can't work is already clear in this topic. If you agree you're welcome, if not you're just complaining, even if you believe in the utility of a council and you explain your opinion (in the end just based on a minimum logic and common sense... hello?! democracy anyone!?), like Ethernity, Raggnar and me in our posts.
This is how my representatives are going to intermediate my opinions to the staff.

Please read all the posts before complaining again, it is no representative role in first place, it is for research.

Celad wrote:in the end just based on a minimum logic and common sense... hello?! democracy anyone!?

Uthgard has never and will never be a democracy. This has never been up for discussion.

EternitySphere wrote:I really don't see the point of a council when staff won't listen to the community anyways. When 95% of the server disagrees with a change that's made, staff simply ignore it and claim it's "livelike", yet in their very next post they will make a custom change that is not livelike at all.

The council is just going to be used to blame bad decisions by the staff on. The staff will continue to make decisions they want without any regard to what the players really want, and if the players make valid points about why they're wrong....it's just easier to lock every thread discussing it.

And a council for the community that isn't chosen by the community? LOL....seriously, goodluck.

After discussing this with MY alliance on Midgard , which I believe to be the largest alliance....if it is not ...please name one larger than my Wrath of Tyr alliance...this quote is exactly how my Midgard Alliance feels. Great job in putting out there the general feel of whats really going on.

Regards

Jabberjaw

Trishin wrote:

Celad wrote:in the end just based on a minimum logic and common sense... hello?! democracy anyone!?

Uthgard has never and will never be a democracy. This has never been up for discussion.

You don't seem to get the point that people are talking about community representatives apparently...

The duties of the player council should be to give direct response to the staff what the players think about changes and bugs and the mood of the community.

Gagnastiak wrote:

EternitySphere wrote:I really don't see the point of a council when staff won't listen to the community anyways. When 95% of the server disagrees with a change that's made, staff simply ignore it and claim it's "livelike", yet in their very next post they will make a custom change that is not livelike at all.

The council is just going to be used to blame bad decisions by the staff on. The staff will continue to make decisions they want without any regard to what the players really want, and if the players make valid points about why they're wrong....it's just easier to lock every thread discussing it.

And a council for the community that isn't chosen by the community? LOL....seriously, goodluck.

After discussing this with MY alliance on Midgard , which I believe to be the largest alliance....if it is not ...please name one larger than my Wrath of Tyr alliance...this quote is exactly how my Midgard Alliance feels. Great job in putting out there the general feel of whats really going on.

Regards

Jabberjaw

Trishin wrote:

Celad wrote:in the end just based on a minimum logic and common sense... hello?! democracy anyone!?

Uthgard has never and will never be a democracy. This has never been up for discussion.

Seems like the community is speaking.

I have no problem with Rector nor Holsten being apart of the council. Why? Because every indication of all the posts I have read on this forum show me they are objective in their reasoning, as well as are pretty active in-game. Sure they lean towards a certain gameplay style, but I would like to see anyone say they are not fair and reasonable as well. If this council is going to work, the members will need to take the information the players are spewing at them, and translate it into concise logical representation for Blue and Co. to consider. This is not a lobbyist group in the fact that "OMG I NEED TO BE REPRESENTED HEARRRRR MEEEEEE". It is instead a group of people who can weed through players ideas and, by being impartial and fair, suggest the ideas to the people who can put them into place.

Also, I would assume every realm will be different with its representatives. Such as I would expect a solo-er representative to come out of Hib more than Mid anyway. As long as there is a somewhat equal representation of all the playstyles on the council itself, and the representatives are fair, I don't see a reason to complain. So lets see who else gets put there before complaining.

BobtheSkelly wrote:I have no problem with Rector nor Holsten being apart of the council. Why? Because every indication of all the posts I have read on this forum show me they are objective in their reasoning, as well as are pretty active in-game. Sure they lean towards a certain gameplay style, but I would like to see anyone say they are not fair and reasonable as well. If this council is going to work, the members will need to take the information the players are spewing at them, and translate it into concise logical representation for Blue and Co. to consider. This is not a lobbyist group in the fact that "OMG I NEED TO BE REPRESENTED HEARRRRR MEEEEEE". It is instead a group of people who can weed through players ideas and, by being impartial and fair, suggest the ideas to the people who can put them into place.

Also, I would assume every realm will be different with its representatives. Such as I would expect a solo-er representative to come out of Hib more than Mid anyway. As long as there is a somewhat equal representation of all the playstyles on the council itself, and the representatives are fair, I don't see a reason to complain. So lets see who else gets put there before complaining.

Nobody said they were bad guys, not objective or not realistic or whatever, but they are not the voice of Midgard. They are at best the voice of their guilds/alliances, since they are mostly secluded in them in more than one way. As far as I understand, this council should serve as a communication platform between staff and players. I believe Celad's recent post sums it all up in the best possible way . If they were already chosen in advance, then it should have been stated that a test player council was formed based on this and that(whatever the qualifications are). Instead, I see a big post about some fair election, and then I see the person posting it nominating his friends who have little or no communication with majority of non German players .

Also, I would like to reply to Trishin. Yes, this is your server and I agree it's not a democracy and I'm cool with that. I understand that players have the right to suggest something, but it is the staff's decision will it be implemented or not. I agree with that and respect it. However, don't you think that players have the right to democracy within their own ranks? I see no harm in this, since the final decision for anything on the server still belongs to the server staff, so we players at least get to choose who will express our general opinion to the staff in a fair and polite manner? All should be satisfied by this, at least in my opinion.

Trishin wrote:

Celad wrote:in the end just based on a minimum logic and common sense... hello?! democracy anyone!?

Uthgard has never and will never be a democracy. This has never been up for discussion.

http://www.englishforeveryone.org/Topic ... ension.htm

Nef Melody wrote:Please read all the posts before complaining again, it is no representative role in first place, it is for research.

I've read (something that apparently you're not able to do) all the posts, and since the first post is clear that: "The duties of the player council should be to give direct response to the staff what the players think about changes and bugs and the mood of the community." So, if they are in it for reasearch, well, they're looking for my opinions and suggestions, and this is what i call to be a rapresentative, an intermediary. Now, with me just telling that the council should be elected to be really something the players feel like our voice, all you see is QQ. Yeah. Nice work candidate.

To much different opinions here. To much flamebait.

There is only one solution.

Re elect

Raggnar wrote:

BobtheSkelly wrote:I have no problem with Rector nor Holsten being apart of the council. Why? Because every indication of all the posts I have read on this forum show me they are objective in their reasoning, as well as are pretty active in-game. Sure they lean towards a certain gameplay style, but I would like to see anyone say they are not fair and reasonable as well. If this council is going to work, the members will need to take the information the players are spewing at them, and translate it into concise logical representation for Blue and Co. to consider. This is not a lobbyist group in the fact that "OMG I NEED TO BE REPRESENTED HEARRRRR MEEEEEE". It is instead a group of people who can weed through players ideas and, by being impartial and fair, suggest the ideas to the people who can put them into place.

Also, I would assume every realm will be different with its representatives. Such as I would expect a solo-er representative to come out of Hib more than Mid anyway. As long as there is a somewhat equal representation of all the playstyles on the council itself, and the representatives are fair, I don't see a reason to complain. So lets see who else gets put there before complaining.

Nobody said they were bad guys, not objective or not realistic or whatever, but they are not the voice of Midgard. They are at best the voice of their guilds/alliances, since they are mostly secluded in them in more than one way. As far as I understand, this council should serve as a communication platform between staff and players. I believe Celad's recent post sums it all up in the best possible way . If they were already chosen in advance, then it should have been stated that a test player council was formed based on this and that(whatever the qualifications are). Instead, I see a big post about some fair election, and then I see the person posting it nominating his friends who have little or no communication with majority of non German players .

Luydor wrote:Heho,


The only reason that im the organzier of it is because I asked to Blue if we can build one.
For now I try to get some people together for that to test, if it an work or not. Maybe we will later vote the member of it. At moment it would be to much work for something that maybe isn't even needed.
The process to choose the member of the player council is no democratic process there you are right, but everybody can tell me who thinks would be good for that. The only thing I do is to look if that player really is player that nearly everybody like in his/her realm. For that I speak with people I know, not only the people I like.

Going back in this thread, this is the first post that actually discusses how the members are selected. Nothing before this indicates there is any type of democratic process, and it is even stated that it is NOT a democratic election before hand.

Again, I think both of them are very good choices because they take many different factors into consideration. It's not like these guys are unavailable to speak to. I see Holsten particularly in passing all the time. If you have something you want to say to him, talk to him. I doubt he will say "go away". I would have most likely insisted Holsten be on this council if he wanted to do it anyway, speaking as an American player. Same thing with Rector, because of his activity and dedication to doing a lot of things for the server.

Heho,

So next try , maybe then you can understand better the meaning of the player council.

First the creation process.
I spoke with Blue about a player council. We had something like that already. At that time the player in council were already set when the council was built. The success of it wasn't that good, because some of the player want to much, like custom changes. For me at that time the first problem was, that many player didn't like some of the player, also because of their behavior.
Blue wanted the player council, but doubt if it would be worth to create one. After hours of IRC talk, we came to the point lets try it.
So I had what I want. I was allowed to organising a player council and to do a little bit community management with it.
With great power, come great responsibility! Even here. Specially for me, I want it,so I should try to make it good. That what I am trying.
Firstly the important question, what should it do?

Giving response ( About Changes, Bugs )
Speak with players ( If they have an issues )
Look for the mood in the community ( See the hole things )
Make Community Management ( Try to open some process and include the community )

For that task, what kind of Player Council should it be? Like a parliament or more like team? I elected the team part. Why?
Their are two problems when I would try to make it with a vote from all players.
- It would be much effort, for maybe 1 month the player council exist.
- I wouldn't know, which person I had to deal with.

To point two. Of course you that is normal for a democratic process. Yes, in which parts we do democratic vote?. When we want one that represent our opinion so they can vote something. I want to organize the council as a team, that doesn't have to vote so much.

So why a team instead of a parliament? Because the council should effort more then just vote about something. That council should support the community and the staff, so they should not do what their homies like. They should collect data, analyze it and give out a statement.

If you make a democratic vote, you would vote people that give out your opinion. That you could do if the council have power to decide, which it doesn't have.

The people for a parliament and a team are different. In parliament, you need people that what a opinion about something and really try to show the other that their opinion is the right one. In a team that have to gave out hint you can have as result for the staff something like: Alb, Hib, Mid things about in that and that ways, specially the US player like it and we would say you should do that.

So in fact, it is important to have people which see the hole community not their realm or their alliance.
The people for that should have some more skills:
They should be polite, take time for other, they should be able to discuss something in a good way and the nearly most important thing is they aren't lazy!
Why? If we have people that don't want to do something, they just want to be in the council, that will be a difficult work.

Btw, some misunderstood the part with guild and alliance leader. The people should not represent their guild and alliance, it just shows for me that they have kind of skill or they should have. To talk with people and see if it is important or not. What people talk can be not important? Not really, but if a player was just killed by a bug that happen every week one time to him, what the player tell how important that bug is can be different to what he would say when he didn't get killed and if you know daoc player you will know that maybe the player wasn't killed by the bug but he take it as reason .

So you can see the council more as a speaker, that doesn't care so much about the personally opinion about issues.
In fact, the council should represent the community by collecting data not by speaking about personal things.

To my position, Im here to lead the council like a captain of team. So organize it a little bit, maybe look that everybody do something for it, but everyone should do by themself.

The power I get with that, is not really high and Im even not the people that like the power so much, I like the challenge of it and that is most time work, like the 20 hours work that I have with it till now.

That I do for the community, like I hope the council will do it, too. To be able to work, we need the help of the community.

Greetz Luydor