Story continued from : viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25393&start=15

I will list each class i tested with the Weapon skill i found and the way dmg stats, skill from rr / item/ spec increase WS and by how much for each one.




NEW FINDINGS

Problem is that i ve tested a few more things with this warden and i found out that: the higher your spec in weapon line the more Ws you gain per 1 str point, and ... at same time you get more WS for + 1 to skill from items.

lvl 50 char
1 blades spec=>+ 1 str= 1,81 WS ...... + 1 blades skill from items = 8,83 WS
25 blades spec =>+ 1 str= 2,22 WS ....... + 1 blades skill from items = 9,33 WS
50 blades spec => + 1 str= 2,5 WS ........ + 1 blades skill from items = 10 WS
50 +23 blades =>+ 1 str = 3,31 WS



And another small tests i ve done with a bersy lvl 50 having 175 str :

Bersy 1+4 sword = 747 WS
......... added +46 str = 747+107= 854 WS => 1 str = 2,32 WS
..........added +94 str = 747+ 217= 964 WS => 1 str = 2,30 WS

Bersy 50+4 sword= 1096 WS
..........added +46 str = 1096+ 157= 1253 WS => 1 str = 3,41 WS
..........added +94 str = 1096 + 319= 1415 WS => 1 str = 3,39 WS

The ws given per point of str tends to be less slowly if amount of str is increased.



My conclusion:

So ..that shows how having your weapon spec as high as posible will help you gain max WS for the + str you have and that you will receive , thus remember that a merc with 50+15 crush spec and 50 DW will gain more WS per point of str then one with 35+15 and 50 DW resulting in more dmg and a better defence penetration, its the same for Laxe users , stealthers and all the others who now on uthgard have only 35+16 composite but because of curent implementation they hit the same ..not sure if diferent classes on uthgard gain diferent WS from +1 to str and if it actually delivers more dmg to a mercenary compared to an infiltrator because i know that the WS of merc is higher then the one of the inf..
I think the dmg table can be seen ..even if some clases start with a higher WS they get less WS from + to str..and so on ..quite interesting actually, and keep in mind that all the data i ve put about how much WS they gain for str and RR/ item skill was after the class was 50+1 spec in weapon.




WARDEN

175 str , blades 1+1( from realm rank) = 594 WS ............ 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=600 WS ............ 1 skill train= 6 WS
............................................50+1= 880 WS ........... 1 skil rr = 6 WS
175str +4 str ..................................= 890 WS ............. 1 str = 2,5 WS





SHADOWBLADE my coef factor is 1,78 using the formula

175 str , axe 1+1( from realm rank) = 594 WS ......... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=600 WS ......... 1 skill train= 6 WS
............................................49+1= 874 WS ......... 1 skil rr = 6 WS
............................................50+1= 880 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 890 WS ......... 1 str = 2,5 WS





RANGER

175 str , blades 1+1( from realm rank) = 594 WS ............ 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=600 WS ............ 1 skill train= 6 WS
............................................50+1= 880 WS ............. 1 skil rr = 6 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 892 WS ............. 1 str = 3 WS

175 dext , bow 1+1( from realm rank) = 726 WS ............ 1 skill items= 10 WS .... 1 dex = 2,5 WS ( when bow spec = 1)
................................................................... ........ 1 skill train= 7 WS
............................................50+1= 1075 WS ............ 1 skil rr = 7 WS
175 dex +4 dex ..................................= 1091 WS ........... 1 dex = 4 WS ( when bow spec = 50 )





THANE

175 str , hammer 1+1( from realm rank) = 627 WS ......... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=633 WS ......... 1 skill train= 6 WS
............................................49+1= 922 WS ......... 1 skil rr = 7 WS
............................................50+1= 928 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 940 WS ......... 1 str = 3 WS





SKALD

175 str , axe 1+1( from realm rank) = 627 WS ......... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=633 WS ......... 1 skill train= 6 WS
............................................50+1= 928 WS ......... 1 skil rr = 7 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 940 WS .......... 1 str = 3 WS





Reaver coef = 1,8716

175 str/dext , flex 1+1( from realm rank) = 627 WS .......... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=633 WS .......... 1 skill train= 6 WS
............................................50+1= 928 WS .......... 1 skil rr = 6,5 WS
175 +4 str and 4 dext/2 ......................= 940 WS ........... 1 str+1 dext/2 = 3 WS

175 str , slash 1+1( from realm rank) = 627 WS .......... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=633 WS ........... 1 skill train= 6 WS
............................................50+1= 928 WS ........... 1 skil rr = 6,5 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 940 WS ............ 1 str = 3 WS





FRIAR coef = 1,9765

175 dext , staff 1+1( from realm rank) = 660 WS ........... 1 skill items= 6,5 WS
............................................ 2+1=666 WS ............ 1 skill train= 6,5 WS
............................................50+1= 978 WS ........... 1 skil rr = 6,5 WS
175dext +4 dext ..................................= 986 WS ......... 1 dext = 2 WS





SAVAGE coef = 1,9765

175 str/dext , Hand to hand 1+1( from realm rank) = 660 WS .......... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=666 WS .......... 1 skill train= 6,5 WS
............................................50+1= 978 WS .......... 1 skil rr = 7 WS
175 +4 str and 4 dext/2 ......................= 990 WS ........... 1 str+1 dext/2 = 3 WS

175 str , axe 1+1( from realm rank) = 660 WS .......... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=666 WS ........... 1 skill train= 6,5 WS
............................................50+1= 980 WS ........... 1 skil rr = 7 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 988 WS ............ 1 str = 2 WS






VALEWALKER coef = 2,0692

175 str , scythe 1+1( from realm rank) = 693 WS ............ 1 skill items= 11 WS
............................................ 2+1=700 WS ............ 1 skill train= 7 WS
............................................50+1= 1026 WS ........... 1 skil rr = 7 WS
175str +4 str ..................................= 1038 WS ............. 1 str = 3,18 WS





BERSEKER coef= 2,1782

175 str , axe 1+1( from realm rank) = 726 WS ........... 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=733 WS ............ 1 skill train= 7 WS
............................................50+1= 1075 WS ........ 1 skil rr = 7,5 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 1088 WS ........ 1 str = 3,(3) WS





WARIOR coef = 2,2669

175 str , axe 1+1( from realm rank) = 759 WS ............ 1 skill items= 10 WS
............................................ 2+1=767 WS ............ 1 skill train= 7,5 WS
............................................50+1= 1124 WS ......... 1 skil rr = 8 WS
175str+4 str ..................................= 1138 WS ........... 1 str = 3,5 WS

I have checked thic WS calc and it works well emultaing str stat by spec in weapon except friar savage : http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics ... lator.html

formula used in it is :

Keiferhubs (used in haldar's calc)

WS = [(stat-50) * facteur_classe + base_classe] * [1 + (lvl_spe * 1 + rank bonus_objet * 1 + m) / 100];


# Stat: Stat used for basing damage. str/Dex based weapon specs are flexible, onehanded thrust, midgard spears etc.
For str/dex based weapons the calculation for stat is stat = (str + dex) / 2. All other weapons use dex or str only.

# lvl_spé ': weapon spec of the player

# rank : Realm rank

# bonus_objet : skill bonus from items

# facteur_classe Class factor or the class multiplier for each class, 2.3 for warrior, 2,2 for other tanks, etc.

# base_classe = 200 x facteur_classe. (maybe base class is the value for player level where 200 is a level 50 ??)

# m = 1.56 + bonus_objet / 70






I also used second formula to check the WS i found on live just that coef are diferent then what we know , yet results were even better then 1st one :

WS = Coef x lvl x (1 + lvl_spé_arme / 100) x (1 + STAT / 150) x (1 + bonus_arme / 80)


# COEF: Coefficient - depends on the class. Similar to class factor.

# lvl : level of the character.

# lvl_spé_arme Weapon Spec plus realm rank spec

# STAT : Stat used for basing damage. str/Dex based weapon specs are flexible, onehanded thrust, midgard spears etc.
For str/dex based weapons the calculation for stat is stat = (str + dex) / 2. All other weapons use dex or str only.

# Bonus_arme : Spec bonus from items.

Coef list for 2nd formula :

Warden - 5,38

Shadowblade - 5,38

Ranger weap - 5,38
ranger bow - 6,57

Thane - 5,67

Skald - 5,67

Reaver - 5,67

Friar - 5,97

Savage h2h - 5,97

Valewalker -6,27

Berseker - 6,57

Warior - 6,87

I see 0,30 dif between each tier.

You do know that savage and reaver use str/dex 50%/50% on their h2h/flex, so your results with those weapons are only 50% right aren't they?

EDIT: only the 1st row for both has only str and no dex numbers.

Braxis wrote:You do know that savage and reaver use str/dex 50%/50% on their h2h/flex, so your results with those weapons are only 50% right aren't they?

EDIT: only the 1st row for both has only str and no dex numbers.

I know that, they had 175 dext and 175 str or those 2 divided by 2 = 175 when tested flex and h2h . Results are all 100% right, reaver is on hibrid WS like pala skald etc.

Did you consider that the dual weapon lines or crit-strikes posses their own weapon skill that is not displayed but will be used if you use styles from this line instead of the base line?

You can simply test it by using an assassin with no-spec, composite spec and with full weapon spec (e.g. slash 1+15, 35+15 and 50+15) using CS styles with CS at full spec (e.g. CS 50+15) and comparing the damage as function of str (or str/dex).

You should also be sure that the base damage and cap damage of your weapon don't depends on which style-line you use. Meaning: unstyled your base damage might be lower (due to the low weapon spec and the lower contribution of str or str/dex) but if you use styles from the CS line your base damage might increase (I highly doubt that but, nevertheless, it should be tested).

Nevertheless, nice testing, showing that the melee calculations in DAoC are quite complex.

Garad wrote:Did you consider that the dual weapon lines or crit-strikes posses their own weapon skill that is not displayed but will be used if you use styles from this line instead of the base line?

You can simply test it by using an assassin with no-spec, composite spec and with full weapon spec (e.g. slash 1+15, 35+15 and 50+15) using CS styles with CS at full spec (e.g. CS 50+15).

You should also be sure that the base damage and cap damage of your weapon don't depends on which style-line you use (I doubt that but it should be tested).

This is offtopic
There is no hidden weap skill for CS, dual wield and other types , they only give you style dmg when you train them calculated from style growth with the formula for it , if you dont have composite 51 skill your base dmg will variate from 25%-125% , if you have composite 51 your base dmg will be from 100%-141% and further training in base dmg will push your dmg more but keeping it at 100%-141% variation.
Plz stop teling me things that i already know, go read more and then we can discuss .

MotaroReloaded wrote:There is no hidden weap skill for CS, dual wield and other types

And how than, after your logic, defense penetration and damage is calculated for shield-attacks? At least according to Mythics Grab-Bag there is a hidden weaponskill:

Q. I have discussed this with many people whether or not there is a "hidden" weapon skill for the Berserker, Blademaster and Mercenary associated with their dual wield lines. Is there a different weapon skill value for the main weapon spec that is shown in game vs. a dual wield weapon skill?

A. The Balancinator also known as the time traveler reports: The easiest way to answer this question is by going back in time. From a Grab Bag in 2007:

What does weaponskill have to do with damage?

Weaponskill is a tricky beast. Technically, it has nothing to do with damage, as the displayed value of weaponskill on your character sheet is not actually used in any calculations. It does, however, use a lot of the same factors that are used to determine damage. So in most cases, a higher weaponskill will mean you're doing more damage.

Why doesn't your weapon skill increase with dual wielding skills?

You're using two weapon types that have two different weapon skills. Only one can be displayed on the paper doll, and that one happens to be the base weapon type for what you have equipped in your main hand. Your weaponskill is actually increasing; you just don’t see it reflected in the number displayed on your paper doll.

And, imho, there is a good chance that, if you using CS, DW, CD or LA styles, your damage (style fur sure, base I don't know) and defense penetration calculation is acutually based on this line and not on the base weapon.

You should also note that Mythic stated in the same Grab-Bag that WS is actually not used for any calculation (but as far as I know, there is the legend that is used for defense penetration). So, even if at 50+15 blades your WS increases per point str more than with 35+15 this might not lead automatically to a higher base damage.

If you want to discus these issues make your own thread, this is about something else and you are offtopic , plz comment on the data i provided here if not plz restrain yourself.

MotaroReloaded wrote:If you want to discus these issues make your own thread, this is about something else and you are offtopic , plz comment on the data i provided here if not plz restrain yourself.

Nice try, but you self made this thread about my discussed issue because you drawed (imho wrong) conclusions about your data in this thread here. Maybe you forget your own words, so let me help you:

MotaroReloaded wrote: [...] thus remember that a merc with 50+15 crush spec and 50 DW will gain more WS per point of str then one with 35+15 and 50 DW resulting in more dmg and a better defence penetration [...] stealthers and all the others who now on uthgard have only 35+16 composite but because of curent implementation they hit the same [...]

My issue was that you might miss-interpretate your data because of your insufficent knowledge of the true melee mechanism. In the other thread you suggest that WS is related to the damage dealt and you publish some formulas, but as far as I have seen, there is no experimental proof. But maybe I'm wrong? At least Mythic stated that WS is not used for calculations. First of all you should, therefore, check the influence of WS on damage and if it is related as proposed by your formulas.

Garad wrote:

MotaroReloaded wrote:If you want to discus these issues make your own thread, this is about something else and you are offtopic , plz comment on the data i provided here if not plz restrain yourself.

Nice try, but you self made this thread about my discussed issue because you drawed (imho wrong) conclusions about your data in this thread here. Maybe you forget your own words, so let me help you:

MotaroReloaded wrote: [...] thus remember that a merc with 50+15 crush spec and 50 DW will gain more WS per point of str then one with 35+15 and 50 DW resulting in more dmg and a better defence penetration [...] stealthers and all the others who now on uthgard have only 35+16 composite but because of curent implementation they hit the same [...]

My issue was that you might miss-interpretate your data because of your insufficent knowledge of the true melee mechanism. In the other thread you suggest that WS is related to the damage dealt and you publish some formulas, but as far as I have seen, there is no experimental proof. But maybe I'm wrong? At least Mythic stated that WS is not used for calculations. First of all you should, therefore, check the influence of WS on damage and if it is related as proposed by your formulas.

Those formulas are not mine i found them , tested WS from live with them and the one i posted matches well. And yes i have tested how higher weapon skill from dmg stat and weap spec helps lowering defense of your oponent , and yes i have tested base dmg min and max with 51 composite and 50 +17 spec and it was higher and variance was the same 41% , and yes i have tested how La , DW work on live and they only give you more style dmg when performing styles with the given style growth rates. If you dont believe me , go live and test them .

why are u so keen on WS if it is not used for any calculations?

try to find the variables that influence dmg and defense penetration, which are obv not WS as mythic said.

The WS is just a number and u waste such efforts on it?

chemika wrote:why are u so keen on WS if it is not used for any calculations?

try to find the variables that influence dmg and defense penetration, which are obv not WS as mythic said.

The WS is just a number and u waste such efforts on it?

Because of those like you this server is at the same stage regarding these issues since it was made , no1 gave a f about defense penetration, no1 cared about many things .. you just played .. well there are some who understood and like to know more about the game mechanics of this game , and that can and will do anything to prove something that works wrong. When we fixed volley ability that was hiting your but with 6 arrows of 300+ dmg each in 5 seconds all the time 90% of the ppl were saying it works fine , but we had to prove that they are wrong, and it got changed how it is now ..livelike ..and this is not just a singular example..there are many others.

We know the variables , i posted them in another thread if you had taken the time to look for it, and WS is not just a number. And i bet you havent read the numbers i wrote up here because they show based on WS the tier of melee classes ... but u comment!! , have you seen that warior gains more WS per point of str then berseker? why ? because at same stat dmg he makes a bigger unstyled min and max melee dmg then berseker , when they raised warior WS they increased his dmg , Weapon skill is the mirror of all variables and it shows the dmg capabilites of your character compared to others..if you want to understand that its good if not .. your problem ..
I will not answer anymore to offtopic things that have been discused before.


PS : can we get delete stupid posts button plz?:)

Did you ever consider the changes in WS for some classes in patch settings newer then our destination one?

Braxis wrote:Did you ever consider the changes in WS for some classes in patch settings newer then our destination one?

I ve just put what i found on live, i dont say ..put those on uthg , until patch 1.9 at least i dont know of any class having higher WS , you do?

WS on uthg is livelike..just so you know.