Llithium wrote:In fact: Why did Mythic programmed DAoC that complex in case of skills, spells, abilities and a cap of 8 ppl for a grp? If they wanted the people to zerg all day they wouldn't need all that, some dd and some heal and all is fine.

When Mythic wanted "fair" 8vs8, why they didn't implement battle-grounds as they are implemented in other MMORPGs, as Wow, WAR, AoC and so on?

DAoC war never meant to be a pure 1on1, 2on2, or 8vs8 game. Mythic even has a (c) on the term RvR: realm vs. realm. And thats what DAoC is about.

Finalement wrote:WTB no RAs at all

Would make the game much more fun tbh^^

+1 on that
wtb ras wipe and no more ras system

Llithium wrote:I hope I didn't hurt your feelings too much Lasastard...

Maybe you better read what I 've written and not what you would like to read so you have something to answer.
Insulting around to feel better is nothing you will get along with, so go play with Topaz.

Care to elaborate on that? Feel free to do it via PM, doesn't really belong here.

edit: maybe I should clarify the gripe I have with your OP:

Llithium wrote:So why run a zerg? The zerg was involved for the false reason to get RP. Since when collecting RP is the goal of the game? There is no reason to have high RR when you have skill and you get skill by converting your experience correctly into actions. If you are a tank and see the enemy caster is doing too much damage to your grp you know you shall target him first for example. The false idea that RP are the goal of DAoC made people become that disrespectful to their enemies. The goal of DAoC is fun and you get fun by messing with others and get better doing it. A kill has nothing special when you zerg someone down, if you kill someone in a fair fight or finally kill maybe 2 alone is what makes the RvR a good experience. If it 's just farming enemies and earn (realm)points for it then do us a favour and go to PvM zones with your toons and farm (experience)points, it 's quite the same but the respawn is better. There you can farm and zerg the whole day long, you learn nothing from it, you gain your reward points and you can do it whenever you want.
But for the few people who are willing to get experience with DAoC and get fun messing with enemies in (fair) fights (fight include that both sides have a nearly equal chance to win) then try to respect your enemies and treat them fair, the most will pay you back and it leads to a far better population in Emain when people know they can go there not to get just farmed down but a chance to get some fights.

Subjective statements and opinions presented as facts are highlighted in bold red font. I don't even disagree with your general point about fair play, but you can not come here telling people what is and isnt fun about this game. By that you are just as 'disrespectful' as those players you criticize for not following the same kind of motiviations as you.

And the point about fair fights, well - there's your problem. Is it a fair fight if say a rr4-5 hib group plays versus Drachengarde on a good night? Is that really just a matter of skill? And is it reasonable to expect new groups to outcompete enemies 8vs8 when those have been playing together for a long time and many RAs that will allow them to both take more damage and dish more damage out at the same time? Not saying it can't be done, but this is nevertheless not a fair fight. What RAs do you have on your cleric - and why, if it doesn't matter? So coming back to the initial point a few pages back, there are not a whole lot of 'fair' fights to be had in emain to begin with.

Llithium wrote:But for the few people who are willing to get experience with DAoC and get fun messing with enemies in (fair) fights (fight include that both sides have a nearly equal chance to win)

Llithium wrote:@Ron: In a 8v8 both sides have a chance to win, there were certain grps who beat for example DG/GdRW Ally groups time and time again. They have TS, they have experience, they have most of the time a lot of high RRs and still a bit teamwork and skill beats them, as much as a Rare grp gets beaten by some grps as well, that has nothing to do with haveing better conditions, but with knowing what to do.

I'm confused here Llithium.... one side you say fair fights mean both sides have "equal chances" of winning, then you turn around and say that both sides have a "chance" to win. "Equal chance" means roughly 50% chance to win, whereas, "chance" to win means it could be a .00001% -100% chance of winning. There is a world of difference between those 2 statements.

Say whatever you want man, but I dont care how "skilled" you are, a full group of RR4-5 players will get beat by a full group of RR8-11 players ALMOST every time. Yes, IF (and thats a HUGE IF) the high RR group plays horrible and isnt paying attention AND the low RR group plays perfectly it can be done, but how can anyone get mad that after 3 or 4 wipes against a high RR group they get more then 8 people to go kill them? When you say this game is about having fun, well I have yet to find one single player that had fun getting killed every time in RvR. As a matter of fact, most people after a few wipes w/ no rp's to show for it just quit playing.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just that sometimes zerg's form because there is a high RR group running around killing the other lower RR groups. Is there times that lower RR groups beat higher RR groups? Sure there is, but more often then not, it is the result of that low RR group coming up on the high RR group after a big battle and all their RA's are down.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that the mentality that you are talking about is not right. I actually agree with that line of thinking. Nothing makes me happier then when I go out to emain and can have fun and “fair” battles consistantly. However, I understand if I beat the tar out of an assasin 4 times in a row and he’s RR4L2 and I’m 7L1, that he is more then likely going to bring a second player with him at some point. That doesn’t mean he’s not playing for fun, or he’s just out for rp’s, or any of the other accusations you throw around. It just means that he know’s he can’t beat me 1 vs 1 so in order to compete he’s going to get a second. As a result of that, his duo will kill me a handful of times, I will get upset, then I will find a buddy to come out with me. This goes on and on, but that is all part of DAOC.

1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, all the way to 8 vs 8 is great, and is a wonderful thing to enjoy, but as somebody above pointed out, RvR on DAOC was designed just for that… REALM VS. REALM!!! 90% of this “adding/Zerging, etc” comes from people playing on too many realms and from people with higher RR players and groups that don’t want to accept the fact that in order for lower RR players and groups to compete sometimes they have to outnumber the higher RR players and groups. Skill is very important, but its not everything. Ronia is a awesome ranger, but give him a 4L2 ranger and let him fight Divinarchangle and see how he does against him. Skill add’s to what you can do with your toon, but it doesn’t trump high RR’s unless the high RR player only zerg’d and task’d his way to that RR.

@Lasatard: That is not really just own opinion, if you go zerg someone and he has no chacne to get along then it clearly not fun for him anymore. That is what makes people log out and empties the RvR zone. That is clearly not fun for the ones who get zerged. If there shall be some fun while RvR then everyone shall have the chance to play his way of RvR and not get bothered from bigger groups the most of the time. I may have to differ the terms: Zerging meant that a bigger party of players are farming solos/small groups/fgs down, but if Zerg vs Zerg is fighting it can be fun for sure.
I never said that Zerg fights are not part of the game or don't make fun or whatever, just zerging solos and smaller parties is..
And that 's why I told: If you want to farm, farm xp. In any case it is at least for the people getting farmed no fun and there is neither a challenge nor any fun feeling to farm RP by zerging smaller groups and solos with a big party of people, at least if they didn't treat you bad before.

@Ron&Lasatard: For sure there is never a 100% equal fight, that 's why I wrote "nearly". Even the setup can be a big point to lose vs your opponent, we had a group running some days ago where hibs just inc, throw insta mezz and aog and 2-3x charge, pala was mezzed and 4 BM striking down the cleric in some seconds, DI conflicted so it was that fast. There is no equal fight, but adding is not a way to get it equal, as zerging fgs is not a way to get anything equal as well. As I already said, everyone is able to learn the game and even to compense RR with skill. I don't say that RAs are not influencing the fight, but there is in general so much influence like gameplay of both sides, teamwork, setup, spec & skill of every single player/char, relics, the inc itself (sideinc, back inc, realised/unrealised, afks, inc at hill etc.) and other things, you can't just reduce it on the RR. Keeping at least the amout of players equal is not the general step to make a fight equal, if groups like Rare/DG/GdRW/MB/BA/Hexagone and other strong guilds (that I don't yet mention because they may not exist that long) get 1,2 or 3 adds against a low RR group it can be totally ok, they should be able to handle that, but it is not ok to build up a zerg each evening and farm everything in view like Nerobit was initializing. The way to get more action and fun in RvR is trying to keep it as fair as possible and respect each other especially in this case to get more people into RvR zones.

And to sum up what I stand for again (and again and again...)
- RPs are not the goal, but the fun is.
- EVERY way of equal challenge, if it 's solo, duo, trio.... fg... zerg is part of the game, not just 8v8. But keep it as fair as possible, farming is not what makes a game fun, if you like it -> farm xp.
- Btw. IF zerg is your profession, try to make it fun for everyone in case of announcing it in Odins/Hadrians so other zergs can join and there is some challenge and some fun for everyone who takes part and still others can play their way.
- Respect other ways of RvR and don't farm everything you see, then everyone has a chance to play his way and have fun.
- Try to involve any player who tries to get into RvR and show them the way, help is always given as I've seen so far, but not just built up the strongest group, this is no competition who wins the most times, give others a chance, try to be creative with sets maybe, then other groups don't feel provoked to built up the strongest set as well and less strong groups going under.

right... the zerg should move to hadrians or OG to let the 8vs8 player have their fun in emain

I think the ones geting farmed and loosing the fun should move, the others have no reason to move. They have fun

Same goes for 1v1 who just know amg in emain and complain about beeing farmed constantly

And there was really no grp that won constantly against DG/GDRW grp with rr4-5, sure every grp can win against our grps.

We don't go save to reg RA's, so it happens we have nothing ready or just had a fight before, some new players in grp, a real bad inc, some afk, ld [insert dozens more reasons for a not set high rr grp loosing against good playing low rr grps]... but it never happens nor happened on a regular basis.
RR > Skill

Edit: sorry i realized too late it was a bit offtopic and insulting.

Anyway i think my guildmate said all what i thought about that (endless?) discussion and in a far smarter way than i'll never be able to do

Just a last thing: I often like to compare RvRing with raising cows, If you slaughter all the cattle in once, you'll have a damn good meat fest for a very short time. But if you just kill some cows and let the others to get a chance to reproduce you'll have meat for a longer period.
This is exactly the same stuff in rvr, if you bring your party just to outnumber and slaughter every form of life on the battlefield, don't expect to have more than 10 mins of fun. (cause ppl don't wanna make an equal party, are just lazy to do it, or any others reasons). But if you let people a chance to win (see the previous replies for the meaning of "chance"), then they'll come back to try to get their revenge.... and you'll have fun for all night long.

Rare can you come off your high horse please...
edit: you edit your "insulting" so do I ;p

Do yourself a favour and don't try to search for insult because you got nothing to say.

Especially you shouldn't try to pretend you have any construtice thing to write over here.

Funny how you try to pretend that you dont need a high RR to compete on Uth. The high RR grps you fight as a low RR grp are good grps as well, so even if you are on the same Level you will loose due to higher DI, higher BOF, higher AOM you can insert almost all very important RAs here which you wont ve with low RR and which win you almost every fight if you ve it and the other grp dont. So be honest to your self and admit, that all you write is to legitimate farming low RR grps for your RP/h which you try to impute to all the other players.

Celteen wrote:Rare can you come off your high horse please...
It's only a tiny pony anyways.

1. Rare is more than 2 people (and why are you even speaking in a thread called "8v8 situation on uthgard ..." ?)
2. go back to emain and add MB rr10 average group vs alb/mid pugs, and come back to forum and try to persuade people that an adding/zerging playstyle like yours is healthy for the server
3. we dont sit on horses, we sit on elefants

Bloodwyne wrote:3. we dont sit on horses, we sit on elefants

Just to clarify:

What he said isn't insulting to elephants, nor to any person resembling/close relative to anyone resembling an elephant and posting in this thread. We actually do not sit on elephants and think of them as lovely creatures.

That is all. Carry on with this pointless discussion.

we started playing 8v8 in the WoG group with rr5 to rr6 average. Ofc you lose against some set groups from time to time, but you will win sometimes against the rr11 groups too. U need the most important basic RAs and should not give up. And now with rr7 average u can make pretty decent fights against any group. It really is possible to beat higher-rr groups as low rr if you want. And btw no set group will complain when 12 low rrs engage them. It is only annoying if they add an equal 8v8. But i think the situation in primetime was not so bad the last days since every group we played with was really fair.

Bloodwyne wrote:3. we dont sit on horses, we sit on elefants

Is interesting to know on what part of the elefant you like to sit too. Maybe on the trunk?

Ok, /joke off.

I will always write this: go in different zone to do different styles of RvR. At least we should try it. And if zergers just follow 8 groups after they see spams in e.g. OG, well then we have the proof that they are the disrespectful part.

When we tryed it for soloers in OG it was a failure after some weeks because of some noob gankers, i know, but zerg is a different thing (not easy to move fast between zones), and I think (from what i've seen two evenings ago) that there are players who like zerg from every realm, so it should work if they stay emain and 8v8 group try another zone (or viceversa). Everyone will just have his kind of fun.

Regarding pweet and Celteen posts, well, pfffff.

Healowner wrote:

Bloodwyne wrote:That is all. Carry on with this pointless discussion.

You're right, actually you all turn around in a pointless discussion
Maybe should you let this thread going down as both side can't understand the other.