Eclipsed wrote:What troubles do you have with your hunter vs most enemys ?

Why i feel, hunter is somehow gimp here (just want to state what i think, not a valid bugreport, but we are in support section, so we can discuss a bit )

It's cause all speclines/abilities the hunter has, are affected by bugs or issues. As a Hunter, you cant leave something gimped and compensate with something else.

Let's go down the List:

Archery:
- Mostly, It's said, don't go full bow, there are bugs or it doesn't perform that good. True or not, there are still issues *caugh*bowproc*caugh* Well it's getting better (thanks to Staff!)

Melee:
- ok not this much bow, now more Melee. Next issue: Defense Penetration and Growthrates. Personally, i think Growthrates are not such a big point. Mostly the GR is nearly what it should be, can't be this critical for Damage. Defense Penetration indeed is...

Pet:
Ok, i have some issues. Fine i bring in my Pet what gives my some decent extra dmg and bite enemies out of stealth.... Oh wait. Mob-dmg is another Story and is not a Hunter specific Problem but the Hunter affected by the Bug too.
Attacking stealthed players with pet was called a bug by mythic and so it's fixed here, even it is was possible in the aimed patch-level.
Thats OK it was fixed, even if wonder sometimes, if an stealthed Enemy could saddle your wolf, ride away and it still would not notice someone is there


So, what do? Concentrate on something not Buggy? There's nothing left.

Personally, i don't think, there is not this "one big Problem" for Hunters. All those small things in whatever a hunter has to offer, thats the point.


Btw. i don't play my hunter this much, but i really like to play this class. Just the Roleplay-factor (hunting through the dark woods of midgard with a wolf, how cool is that? ) Just this is worth to play Hunter time by time

The Hunter's main problem is that it can not beat enemy defenses. High evade and block classes will laugh in the Hunter's face, and all of the Hunter's common opponents have high evade or high block. The only exception is the Ranger, who simply beats the Hunter with superior melee and bow damage.

The class is poorly balanced on Uthgard. I only play it because of the perverse sense of joy I get when I actually manage to kill something.

I do believe that 2H weapons should be looked at, if there is any bonuses for damage not being calc. Which if something was found. It would help the hunter for his/her melee and also would give archery damage a little boost also. For penetration, sometimes you have to practice timing your swings and moving around to get past ones defenses. It does work, as i have to do that on those with high defenses, even assassins, as they still will evade or someone with high parry and block. Yes its lame, but if you stand still for your enemy, your the one who is giving them the benefit. And there is counters to it, so if you face one that knows how too, youl have to find ways to counter there countering, which is possible. Makes fights interesting, then stand still and hit taunts and wait for a reactionary.

For the hunter, i do believe that there pets should be counted as an additional attacker and reduce some defenses like evade. Maybe not as much as dual wield. But maybe 1/3, instead of half. And the pet damage needs to be adjusted to be at least more useful. Also is there any mobs the hunter can charm in OF that is unique and has some abilities, to be worth charming. Like other charm classes can find. If not, then there should be at least a few added to give them other options. Depending if charm for the hunter works correctly. Im not sure about style GR for the hunter. The ones for the ranger is not that great ether and a small increase in GR does not equal that much dmg. But if you can find a reliable source, that blue with accept. Then it should be fixed, along with other GR in that source.

I did play a hunter before, a long while ago and i found them to be fun. Mostly i liked the utility of the pet, but back when i played, not on uthgard. The pet actually had decent useful damage, and didn't miss to often ether.

The old pet is a liability, he gives enemies a free evade style and procs ablatives. His range is only 1/2 of bow range I dont know if the proc fix was implemented on Uthgard

Archery is fine. the archers are hybrids and have a melee specline for a reason and with old RAs casters wont have PD so archery will be better..Archery on live is a joke they just turned archers into FoTM casters and everyone and thier grandmother made archer alts and stealth zerged with them.

My only beef with the class is that they are supposed to be "the melee archer" and rangers have taken over that title long ago. So theres no point in playing the class

Of what i remember reading is that many have said that dual wielding classes like Blademasters, Merc, Beserkers all are out preforming in melee, compared to using a 2H weapon. Which lead many to think that 2H weapon mechanics had something missing. Which if true, would explain why many choose a ranger over hunter or scout. Its not the ranger as a class it self that is wrong. But again people look at the number of rangers compared to hunter or scout and judge it as OP because of that, ignoring there own class issues or other bugs like possible 2H issues. If ranger melee is too strong, then so is NS, and the NS population is now growing, and i think even passed up ranger RP.

And again, there is no where, officially it say that hunters are the main melee archer. Youl have to show a link, not text you wrote.

Also what spec would a hunter go with, to be a melee fighter, and have bow and buffs. 35 bow, and 40 BC, and 34 stealth, would only allow 39 spear. You would have to drop bow to get 50 spear or lower it for 44. Or lower buffs. While a ranger with no bow spec will be spec for high melee and should be as strong. I myself on my ranger has 42 PF, 39 pierc, 18 cd, 35 bow, 33 stealth. Just that 18 CD will give me an offhand swing of like 45-47%, which could easily by pass 2H, unless there is some formulas to give 2H bonuses. But then again, i did have to spend more points into melee to achieve such bonus. Anything above 25% in CD isnt free. If the hunters pet had decent dmg, and if 2H is correct. Im sure the hunters melee damage would be equal. But when it comes down to it, its the person playing which makes there class a success or not.

We will never see decent damage from the Hunter pet on Uthgard. The staff would need to increase pet damage by 3x for the Hunter pet to contribute a useful amount of damage. That would be an obvious custom change. It's not going to happen.

So the hunters pet damage is currently classic live like? If so, then what on the hunter is not classic live like? (1.69)

We have no way of knowing what is "classic live-like" for Hunter pet damage. No one ever tested it. The fact is Hunter pet damage was always poor (from my own experience), and against MP armor templates it was even worse.

I've summarized what is needed to fix the Hunter on Uthgard so many times I should make a macro for it:

--Hunter spear growth-rates are wrong. They need to be increased.
--Uthgard's lack of a defense penetration mechanic hurts the Hunter more than any other class on the server.
--Hunter pet damage needs to be increased (i.e. a general mob damage fix).

Implementing these fixes would help the Hunter a lot, though it would still be a weak class compared to its rivals.

Other than that, the Hunter on Uthgard suffers from the same problem as the Warden and Friar; their critical class fixes did not come until after Uthgard's target patch level. So either the staff accept this, and implement special, targeted fixes for these classes, or they ignore the problem.

Spear GR: Those fixes you found, was from a mid guild site, with no other sources. And such changes, like ,80 to ,88 or even larger differences like ,15 will not increase damage by much. Since the hunter is on a low dmg table like other stealthers, the increase in damage will be a few dmg, if that. Im sure any class can find a source that says there style delves should be higher or lower. Finding a reliable source is the difficult part.

Classic Defense Penetration is a known feature from the past, and not a guess. To remove this would be a custom change. Also your forgetting its benefit vs parry targets. You may face more assassins because of the lack of non stealthed enemy's, but when facing someone with a 2H weapon, you will have the upper hand. As most 2H enemy's will have lower evade, high parry and now blocking. So dual wield will not be as effective in penetrating there defenses. But if you assume every enemy will be a high evade/block target, then you got a point. You also have to remember we still dont have WS effecting defenses. And if we removed these defense penetration rules, you will not do that much better. Assassins will still evade 50% of the time, while your 10% evade will go to like 20% or so, so youl still be screwed, and facing high parry enemy's will be worse. Facing ranger will not be much diff as 10% to 20% will only make little diff. And a scout will not change ether. So i don't see what you think will help you. Lets work on getting WS fixed and focus on getting around ones defenses manually on your own. And remember, if one has a shield, he also has only 1H weapon with lower dmg. If he switches to 2H, you got the benefit then, while they reduce your parry too, it doesn't matter as you have no parry, so this rule benefits you, not him.

Yes pet dmg needs to be adjusted. How has the hunters pets melee dmg changed since the past on current live. If you ignore the pets styles. If it can be tested, has it? and if not, why are you not testing it, to get the proof you need to get it fixed. Or waiting for the staff to do it or someone else. Want something, do it yourself. If it can not be tested now, there has to be some kind of source out there to help. But you need to search for it.

On patch fixes, well there is many cases that can be made that would also have to be done. Like style lines with styles with reactionary that some classes cant even use. Like blades, horizon blade style which has a stun, but is based on block i think, and ranger / ns can not parry. It was changed to evade later on, like 1.81 or so. Some goes with many other styles. Also one could argue that NF stealth system was a fix to a poor OF stealth system. So if we give hunter changes, friar, warden. They would need to give NF stealth system for archer ... which i wouldn't mind keeping. This game is always a developing game, so picking one patch to stick with, has its issues. But making later fixes, will make endless posts about fix this because of this, fix that because of that. Im sure the staff would not want to have to deal with all that.

Eclipsed wrote:Spear GR: Those fixes you found, was from a mid guild site, with no other sources.

Actually you'll find those "fixes" on many different DAoC websites. The style list I linked is by far the most common list of growth-rates on the internet. Uthgard's growth-rates, on the other hand, can not be found anywhere. They do not exist outside of this server, and the staff have been unable to provide a source for them. How much damage increase the Hunter gets is irrelevent since, like you said, the increase would be very small. The difference between a Hunter asking for a damage increase and a Ranger asking for a damage increase is that the Hunter actually needs it.

Classic Defense Penetration is a known feature from the past, and not a guess. To remove this would be a custom change...

You are opening up a completely seperate arguement from what I mentioned. I did not say anything about removing or customizing features. That is a seperate debate. Moving on...

Yes pet dmg needs to be adjusted. How has the hunters pets melee dmg changed since the past on current live. If you ignore the pets styles. If it can be tested, has it? and if not, why are you not testing it, to get the proof you need to get it fixed. Or waiting for the staff to do it or someone else. Want something, do it yourself. If it can not be tested now, there has to be some kind of source out there to help. But you need to search for it.

I have spent hours scanning the internet for any source on Hunter pet damage, and I have found nothing for it. I have only found information on new Hunter pet damage. I would be happy to do a bug report comparing Uthgard Hunter Avatar damage with live Avatar damage. I can tell you that a live Hunter's Avatar will easily do 100+ damage unstyled. I encourage the staff to implement this much needed bug fix.

On patch fixes, well there is many cases that can be made that would also have to be done. Like style lines with styles with reactionary that some classes cant even use. Like blades, horizon blade style which has a stun, but is based on block i think, and ranger / ns can not parry. It was changed to evade later on, like 1.81 or so. Some goes with many other styles. Also one could argue that NF stealth system was a fix to a poor OF stealth system. So if we give hunter changes, friar, warden. They would need to give NF stealth system for archer ... which i wouldn't mind keeping. This game is always a developing game, so picking one patch to stick with, has its issues. But making later fixes, will make endless posts about fix this because of this, fix that because of that. Im sure the staff would not want to have to deal with all that.

The staff don't "need" to do anything they don't want to do. I'm sick of this arguement that if the staff fix one class they have to implement every little change that was made after patch 1.XX. That is complete nonsense. You fix what needs to be fixed. period. Rangers don't need a style fix because their class is doing great at the moment, so any "fix" made to the class would be completely redundent.

I find it ironic that you would use this arguement, Eclipsed, considering you are against implementing a class feature for the VW because it isn't "necessary." Hypocrite, much?

#1 : If the GR are found on many sources, then provide all the sources to support your claims. This way it would show the staff that this value is not just found here, but also found here and here and here. Its more likely they will implement it then. Add that to your bug report and see if it helps. Every source can only help.

#2 : My statement was that, unlike some unknown issues of the past, we know defense penetration rules where in place and mythic must of had a reason back then. Question is, why did they decide to change it, and changing it, did that require other future changes because the remove it. Did ToA or other expansions make it easier to get past blocking or evade or parry. Would a classic setup without this rule cause any issues. By removing it, it will give high defense classes much higher defenses, not make it easier.

#3 : You can do that, but remember to do the test on the lvl 32 summon spell (lvl 82 pet) and not the lvl 50, which is lvl 90 pet, as classic doesnt not have anything higher then 32 spell. Also does the hunters str/con buff for the pet even work, and if not that is something to take into account when fiquring there damage out. Do that and it may give them more reasons to implement some kind of fix, even from live. Its better then what it is now. If its not some kind of crazy damage for are setup, im sure they would consider it. Unless there is a patch note from live saying. " we increase the hunters pets unstyle damage ".

#4 : No they do not need to implement every request, but im sure it will spart tons and tons. Many could have good reasoning behind it. But who says who gets what. I only talk about the horizon blade style, because there is no evade styles in blade for a ranger or NS without the later fix. But would be one of those things that would be asked for. Just because the ranger is doing fine right now, does that mean there should be no fixes. This would mean that no class would get fixes, exept those who are not played much. Then fixes come and there is more hunters, friars, wardens. Now they are played more and others are not now. Now those classes will want fixes because they are now the under dogs. So it would be an endless cry fest for fixes. And most of my ranger bug reports are archery related, which includes all three realms.

Eclipsed wrote:#1 : If the GR are found on many sources, then provide all the sources to support your claims.

It won't make a difference. Rector made an extensive bug report thread about this in german and Nayru's response was basically "we don't have time to care." If the staff wanted more proof they would have told me. Instead they have told me nothing.

#2 :

I will not discuss this here.

#3 : You can do that, but remember to do the test on the lvl 32 summon spell (lvl 82 pet) and not the lvl 50, which is lvl 90 pet.

I understand how Hunter summon spells work, thank you. I will not waste hours doing a test when I know what the staff will say. On live a level 41 Hunter's Avatar will do 100+ damage unstyled to a level 50 mob. I have done other tests with the Hunter on live, and the Hunter's Avatar did so much damage he would kill a target level 50 player in 12-15 hits.

On Uthgard a player character will passively regen health faster than the Avatar can do damage. Srsly.

#4 : No they do not need to implement every request, but im sure it will spart tons and tons.

So what? If a class is not badly under-powered then it doesn't get a fix. It's as simple as that.

Many could have good reasoning behind it.

The only good reason is that a class is performing so badly that it can't solo, duo, or group competitively. This will be reflected by the number of active level 50 players, average LWRP, player feedback, and staff testing. Classes that aren't performing poorly do not get a fix. Again, simple.

But who says who gets what. I only talk about the horizon blade style, because there is no evade styles in blade for a ranger or NS without the later fix. But would be one of those things that would be asked for.

Blade Rangers and NS have access to an evade chain with Celtic Dual. Blade Rangers and NS are perfectly competitive builds. They do not need a fix.

See how easy that is?

Just because the ranger is doing fine right now, does that mean there should be no fixes.

No, that's exactly what it means.

This would mean that no class would get fixes, exept those who are not played much.

They aren't played much because they are gimped on this server!

Then fixes come and there is more hunters, friars, wardens. Now they are played more and others are not now. Now those classes will want fixes because they are now the under dogs. So it would be an endless cry fest for fixes.

So because players will always whine and demand more we should never fix a broken class? This makes no sense. The answer is to look objectively at the whinging, check to see if there really is a problem (# of active players, LWRP, player feedback, etc. etc.), and if there is a problem then look for a possible fix. It's that simple.

I will never understand the backwards, negative mentality that the staff should not implement a class fix solely because some players will whine about it. So what?

Every fix the staff made recently had whine about it. So this is not a good point.

And the "no custom" excuse the staff use against quick fix for big issue like for example hunter's pet and melee mechanics (or bow procs) is a nonsense because of the massive amount of custom choices the staff already made to FORCE someone to do something on this stupid server.
I've already said that things in this thread but the staff didn't answer me, because obviously they don't know what to say, even when i PM Blue quoting my posts in that thread he just ignored me, while he quick answer another question via PM the following day.

The staff don't want to do this fixes now, they don't care and they prefer to spend their free time on others "really important" issues like perfect drop amount from every mob of the three realms, how can they FORCE players to do what they don't want to do and how can they create a server that need minimum 2 years of exp, farm, and looking for 100p priced s/c charge before you can be competitive. Thinking that this will help casuals and force nerds to don't have a perfect template with every possible charge, but they are doing just the opposite. No time for casuals to be competitive and bigger gap between nerds and all the rest.

And for you Eclipsed: my 7L3 fullbuffed (and haste) hunter has been evaded 7 times the other day by a 4L2 unbuffed (and no haste) infi. He killed me just because i was not able to hit him, he killed me in fact two times because i used IP2 too. This happened because that infi is pro and i don't know how to play my class? No, this happen 40% of fights. This is the point: you can do nothing to avoid to be evaded, because it's just a flawed mechanic, no charges, no stats (my WS is 1300+), nothing.
Is this happening to the classes that hunter have to face most of times? No.
Is this happening to your beloved ranger (4-5 evade in a fight to me), to infis (5-7 evade in a fight to me), to nightshades (4-6 evade in a fight to me), to friars (5-7 evade in a fight to me)? No.
This is the motive because of the hunter needs priority in the fixing plan.
And this is why now that i'm 7L+ even while fullbuffed and with all the ras on i can still loose a fight with a lowbie without doing something wrong. This is imppossible for every other class on this server. This is pure ******. And eveyone knows this. Except the couldn't-care-less staff.

A lvl 50 infi with no extra buffs or RAs has a min Evade chance of 40%, and Dex/Qui charge and dex pot would give about 4-5% more, and with RAs maybe get to 50% evade. You dont have to be a high rank to achieve a high evade rate on an assassin. For damage, well buffs dont really add all that much to a low table class. There dots will deal most of it.

How are you spec, anything in bow? If you have anything in bow, like 35 or higher. Then you will need to use your bow, or your fight could be difficult. If you start a fight in melee, your throwing out all those spec points you have in your bow. Also when you faced this infi, did you move at all to attempt to get past there defenses, or did you stand still like a good boy for that high defense class. Why dont some hunters make some videos on uthgard showing these impossible fights and that you are doing everything you should be.

I fought Seyha a long while ago, and it was a close fight, if i didnt open with a Critshot, while he was walking by in stealth with camo up. He is a few ranks above me, but a higher rank doesnt mean you get to win, just means you can be more lazy about it

(edited)
O and also, there is only 6 (16%) classes in total, out of all 3 realms (38 total), that has the ablitiy to have high enough evade currently, to effect the out come of a battle. There is a total of 10 (26%) who can spec shield, (5alb,3hib,2mid). And there is 15 (39%) classes who can spec parry (5 in each realm).

So as you can see, your chance of facing someone who has parry, is much greater. Yes those who have low evade, could have there shield out. But if they have a shield out, they are stuck with 1H damage out put. But if you combine the evade and block, which comes to about 42%, that is real close to 39%, but with parry, you can use your 2H weapon or dual wield without losing your defenses. So what the real problem is, is that most hunters are facing only assasins and rangers in Solo. As the current setup is not very good to find non stealthers alone. Fix that and there would be less crying. You can not base fixing something, on a few classes that you normally have to face. Look else where for others. Stay away from the gates, as that is stealther camp grounds.

But some of this seems to not be about making things easyer for the hunter, when removing the penetration. Its about making rangers weaker, as removing it will not make anything easier. It will make you get evaded as much, parried twice as much, and you get 1 evade in more then you would now, with your already low evade.

Celad, I feel your pain, ol' friend.

Eclipsed wrote:O and also, there is only 6 (16%) classes in total, out of all 3 realms (38 total), that has the ablitiy to have high enough evade currently, to effect the out come of a battle. There is a total of 10 (26%) who can spec shield, (5alb,3hib,2mid). And there is 15 (39%) classes who can spec parry (5 in each realm).

So as you can see, your chance of facing someone who has parry, is much greater.

Sorry, Eclipsed, but this kind of flawed reasoning is why people don't take your advice. 39% of classes can spec parry, ok, so let's break this down:

--Of those 39%, what percentage actually spec high (>25 spec) in parry? I'd bet the number is close to 0%
--Out of that tiny number, what is the chance a Hunter will encounter one of these parry spec classes in a melee fight? Maybe 1/100?
--And how many of those parry classes also have high evade or high block?

Now for the reality:

--Most of the Hunter's real competitors have high evade (assassins, Friars, Valewalkers).
--Rangers have 2x more evade vs. Hunters because of dual wield.
--Many of the Hunter's common opponents can spec shield, or always have a shield equipped (scouts, minstrels, solo tanks/hybrids).
--NONE of the Hunter's common enemies have parry (assassins, scouts, rangers, minstrels).