THANK YOU NYMEROS, you can say things in a much more effective (blunt) way than I ever could

Hoppip wrote:THANK YOU NYMEROS, you can say things in a much more effective (blunt) way than I ever could

Avoiding questions sure is effective if you can't answer them straight out.

Pretty sure he answered all your questions. Go read up.

WoW all these novel like posts were written during prime time, if posting in the forum is more fun than playing, sth is broke for sure

Hoppip wrote:THANK YOU NYMEROS, you can say things in a much more effective (blunt) way than I ever could

np mate, cheers

Zarkor wrote:Your arguments to which solution exactly?

You say you argument why it can't work, please enlighten me then. All you 'argumented' so far is "I know it doesn't work"...

Again, I know my solution is worth trying because the positive impacts of the changes involved are merely logical consequences, thus easily argumented why they should be made.

wat

Let's recap:

Me: Removing BGs won't work.
You: HOW U KNOW WITHOUT UR PRIVATE SERVER
Me:: How do *you* know it WILL work?
You:: I know!
Me:: ...
You:: No but you see I know my solution is worth trying because the positive impacts of the changes involved are merely logical consequences, thus easily argumented why they should be made.

You actually sat down and typed that out. Wow. Are you a wizard?

But don't get mad, I have a wall of text waiting for you downstairs.

Zarkor wrote:The fact that you just said that removing the last BG has no meaningful correlation to improving endgame RvR just says enough for me. It also explains why you believe I "haven't got a single argument". Quite funny to hear that from you actually.

Just for you then: removing the last BG creates a new group of potential frontier population, pve or rvr. This new population draws out others because the chances of finding enough enemies have increased, singificantly increasing overall frontier (RvR) activty, which is IMPROVING RvR.

There, explained it one last time how it improves endRvR, quite logical really...

Ok, now I will address this AGAIN, as I have at least 2 times before. Removing the last BG doesn't create ANYTHING new. All those people are already there with or without the last BG. It just forces players who would play to 4L2 in Thid to (and pay attention now) ---------> TRY <--------- to RvR earlier.

Now, these people will be FORCED to RvR earlier, and there is a much higher chance they will get no groups due to the following facts:

a) They are low level and low RR
b) They have no experience
c) The don't just want to RvR, they also want to XP
d) The RvR community in general is very elitist and zerg-unfriendly

Now the way you think these issues will solve itself is that the "new" players will just group among themselves, either for XP or RvR or both, and that at some point there will be enough of them to shift the community in a more casual and low-level friendly direction. For this you have no proof whatsoever. None. Zero. Zilch. You can call it "logical" all you want, but there is no proof. I should also mention that I have no proof either, but I do have a clear overview of the servers behavior in the past. Now that's not proof, but it's a strong INDICATOR of the most possible outcome. You, of course, also know Uthgards community and history, but unlike me you choose to ignore them and the indicators they provide.

Now this isn't about why I feel these OF improvements in general will fail, so I'll just skip right to the BGs.

What you don't seem to understand is that by aggressively lobbying to remove the last BG you are in fact HURTING your own plans for improving endgame RvR. Here's why:


1.) If the BG stays the RR gap will be smaller, making the mentality transition you hope will come (elitist groups accepting newbs) more likely.

2.) If the BG stays the "new" players will al be lvl 50, thus also making it easier to get a group.

3.) If the BG stays, people will STILL be able to go out and TRY to XP those last levels in the Frontiers with the uber bonuses, where they can fight other XP groups over camps, fight with gankers and whatnot. No one is IMPRISONED in the BGs, and people still need to get groups, and there is still primetime and you haven't got action there 24/7 like some people seem to think. Actually the BGs are much less active then even OF, not to mention NF main areas, and they've never been a prime XP spot.

4.) The BGs already have a deterrent, and it's the biggest one you can have in an MMO: Leveling a god-damned new character, again and again and AGAIN and never getting him over 4L2.

5.) There ARE people who play only in BGs. They are a huge minority, but they are here. If you remove Thid, you will (and I say this with 100% certainty), LOSE these people. They will leave the server. Remember, these are people who hate OF so much that they are willing to level character after character, twink them, play them for only a few weeks and then scrap them to begin the process all over again, just so they avoid OF. These people will LEAVE and that's a negative hit to the player RvR pop right there (because they are, in fact, a significant part of the RvR population, since it's much smaller then the general server pop). On the other hand, it the other OF improvements work, you might get these players to join in in endgame RvR.

6.) The BGs are no competition whatsoever to endgame RvR when it comes to keep fight (which can also be improved!)

7.) The majority of the population the OF fixes will need to attract is not grinding BGs, they have in fact passed through the BGs and have now either drowned in the PvE part of the population or gone inactive. For the part that IS grinding, see number 5.

8.) The BGs are an important part of leveling a first character on this (or any) server, and, as I sad in the other topic, a legitimate way of bridging the minimum-required-to-get-invited-RR gap, which will NEVER (at best it can be lowered somewhat) disappear completely for a majority of active groups.


So to make it brief (lol): by removing the BGs you're making the mentality shift about casuals and newbs harder to achieve, you're actually guaranteed to lose a noticable part of the RvR popuation which could be lured to endgame RvR with the right fixes and improvements, and last but not least, you're making leveling a new character on the server needlessly more difficult and a lot less fun. Even now you get ganked in the Frontiers all the time, a lot more people there will mean a lot more ganks. Also the BGs are really no competition even to this broken endgame RvR we have now, and if the improvements work they won't be a problem at all.

tl;dr: Removing BGs is stupid.


And please, for the love of God, to all the people reading this who want group RvR and can't get a group for whatever reason: Get (not start, you're not capable of that) a god-damned guild.

Zarkor wrote:I've been doing this for the last year and I've just done exactly this for the BG part. Of course, if you refuse to face that fact it's easy to claim I'm "unable to clarify any single element of it when put on the spot".

And I've been posting rebuttals for at least as long. I feel ya.

Zarkor wrote:Clearly you refuse to acknowledge any arguments I make/made, without argumenting anything at all yourself while claiming you are. As long as you're not bringing in arguments I'm done with you on this matter.

No. I acknowledge any argument that I think is logical and likely to result in the intended outcome. You've posted a lot of potential RvR improvements and the BG issue is (at least to my knowledge) the only one with which I disagree with. I may not believe that the other stuff you suggested will work, but I am NOT AGAINST trying them out.

So chill out.

Nymeros wrote:
And please, for the love of God, to all the people reading this who want group RvR and can't get a group for whatever reason: Get (not start, you're not capable of that) a god-damned guild.

Aren't you just the little all knowing pr*ck(pr*ck shouldn't be cencored imo) around here... stop telling people what (they can't / to) do. Anyway stop nitpicking about that stupid battleground. It doesn't have any xp bonus, it hasn't for a long time, i can see where battlegrounds were fun when you could lvl and rvr in them and have fun... but wtf, you guys have like ONE dissagreement and just keep going on and on about it, making any real discussion mute. Get a f*cking private message chat going, god damn.

Rizla wrote:Get a f*cking private message chat going, god damn.

This is a thread about battlegrounds. Maybe you should take your useless ranting to private messages with yourself.

On topic:

I have to agree with with Nymeros. Mainly because:

1. Assume there are 20 people per realm who would go to thid but can't because it has been removed and now want to go to the frontiers. (unlikely)
2. Assume they are actually useful classes and not 50% stealthers (unlikely)
3. Assume they somehow manage to coordinate and form a two group per realm zerg. (unlikely)

Outcome:

Two fgs of non 50 non sc'd randoms will die to any semi decent group ALL THE TIME.*
Zerg will break up.

So even in the best case scenario they will not populate the frontier but do something else (lvl**, sc, twink next bg char, whatever ...)


*No, they won't mix with decent RvR chars/players. There's a lot of QQ about 4l2 50s not getting groups. Even lower chars won't suddenly get groups BETTER.

**I've said it before: xp boni for frontier leveling need to be HIGH to be worth choosing over safety (like 100% bonus AND decent spots)

Jarysa wrote:

Rizla wrote:Get a f*cking private message chat going, god damn.

This is a thread about battlegrounds. Maybe you should take your useless ranting to private messages with yourself.

On topic:

I have to agree with with Nymeros. Mainly because:

1. Assume there are 20 people per realm who would go to thid but can't because it has been removed and now want to go to the frontiers. (unlikely)
2. Assume they are actually useful classes and not 50% stealthers (unlikely)
3. Assume they somehow manage to coordinate and form a two group per realm zerg. (unlikely)

Outcome:

Two fgs of non 50 non sc'd randoms will die to any semi decent group ALL THE TIME.*
Zerg will break up.

So even in the best case scenario they will not populate the frontier but do something else (lvl**, sc, twink next bg char, whatever ...)


*No, they won't mix with decent RvR chars/players. There's a lot of QQ about 4l2 50s not getting groups. Even lower chars won't suddenly get groups BETTER.

**I've said it before: xp boni for frontier leveling need to be HIGH to be worth choosing over safety (like 100% bonus AND decent spots)

i love that you waited for me to post to get your kicks in, good job. For further slanter, i'll be available on irc , i can't promise i'll respond, but at least noone will need to read your opinion on my opinion on this forum.

On topic:

100% is way too much, thidranki has nothing, or little to do with improvements to end-game rvr. (since this thread is about battlegrounds i'll say 'thid'). bg's are fine, of isn't... so why discuss bg's. BATTLEGROUNDS. Forums, they are fan tas tic.

* options
* choices

We're currently discussing the idea of removing thid to improve endgame RvR. If you don't think this is completely on topic, maybe read the first post again.

Hoppip wrote:We're currently discussing the idea of removing thid to improve endgame RvR. If you don't think this is completely on topic, maybe read the first post again.

In what way is me saying, i don't think thidranki should be removed, not on topic. IMO, it's part of a larger, more interesting discussion, end-game rvr, which also got mentioned, which is what i'm on about, so ... ye.

Rizla wrote:i love that you waited for me to post to get your kicks in, good job.

I wrote the on topic part before even seeing your blah.

Honestly, I don't even log onto my 50 unless I need crafting done.

Emain is NOT more fun than BG's. It just isn't.

What ever am I to do... I've leveled out of Thid... Time to PL another alt!

What you took out Thid? Gg Uth, cya.

Zarkor wrote: As long as inviting a possibly inferior (character/class/skill) player drasticly increases your chances of losing because none of your enemies are taking such risks, those players will never be able to fully enjoy endRvR.

This has got nothing to do with elitism, but general player behaviour caused by the overall game setting. People don't play endRvR like they are doing now because they are all elitists, but because they can not afford to take risks which their enemies will not take.

This. Think this is more the problem then bgs or not. I blame mids/albs

There are 3 reasons for adding on people who do not want to be added:
1. You are a roleplayer, and you are fighting for your realm (~10% of the adders)
2. You want rps, a lot of rps. But you are horrible at this game (~70% of the adders)
3. You are a griefer, and you do it to ruin other peoples fun (~20% of the adders)

And there are 4 reasons for people who cry about adder.. this 4 reasons are for ALL (Whiners)

1. you want rps , a lot rps.. But you dont understand this game (100%)
2. you give a ****** of your own realm (100%)
3. you destroy other peoples fun with flames (100%)
4. And your horrible too at this game cause the other reasons at top (100%)

so shut up ingame flame... or build your own private server .. there you get no "add"

Topaz wrote:

There are 3 reasons for adding on people who do not want to be added:
1. You are a roleplayer, and you are fighting for your realm (~10% of the adders)
2. You want rps, a lot of rps. But you are horrible at this game (~70% of the adders)
3. You are a griefer, and you do it to ruin other peoples fun (~20% of the adders)

And there are 4 reasons for people who cry about adder.. this 3 reasons are for ALL (Whiners)

1. you want rps , a lot rps.. But you dont understand this game (100%)
2. you give a [I am a little bunny and like flowers] of your own realm (100%)
3. you destroy other peoples fun with flames (100%)
4. And your horrible too at this game cause the other reasons at top (100%)

so shut up ingame flame... or build your own private server .. there you get no "add"

0/10

Giving 100% to every point makes no sense. If you at least tried to tackle elementary school level math I would have given you 1/10 for effort (since doing elementary school level math obviously requires serious effort from you).