No he doesn't, read it more carefully.

Thalien wrote:

lampardinos wrote:

Lemonjelly wrote:I'm not quite sure if you're aware of how long it actually takes to get 50-100k bounty points, there's nothing already existing on uthgard that's actually worth that amount of bp and any custom overpowered stuff would make the game unfair.

Well ok. 100k was a bit over the top but 50k shouldnt be that great amount.

So if they would implement a reskin for bp its useless if everyone is running with GoV-Skin or Antalya Cloak. Then it wouldnt be any goal to accomplish.

But 50k should be hard enough for everybody whos not 'really' interested in reskins and ok for players who like rvr. 50k should be in the middle of rr8 and thats possible to get.

Think it's a bit more then rr8. My Bard got around 37k bp. Ofc i spent some bp for respecs, but max 20k. And think was a even less.

Please dont nail me on the 50k. That was just a number I threw in the ring. There should just be good and rare things (and yes, I mean reskins... nothing which makes you anyhow better or 'imba') to buy for a bigger amount. Do it for like 20k or 25.

As I said. Im pretty sure that items with a taj utility or pets would lure some BG players to emain. Give out pets for 2k+, items for 5k+ and whatsoever.

Also the biggest prob are not the BGs itself. Its more like the community.

[LFG] xxx lf emain
[Group] Uh, hes 4l2 and just went out of thid. lets wait.

Im pretty sure that this is a 'common' sentence and if this player wont find any grp for some days ofc he's gonna twink a new one and go back to the paradise thidranki where everyone gets groups and action. Without BGs Im not even sure if they would continue playing here.

Celad wrote:

bawww wrote:There are 3 reasons for adding on people who do not want to be added:
1. You are a roleplayer, and you are fighting for your realm (~10% of the adders)
2. You want rps, a lot of rps. But you are horrible at this game (~70% of the adders)
3. You are a griefer, and you do it to ruin other peoples fun (~20% of the adders)

So if you add on people it's because of one of these 3 reasons. Deal with it and stop making up excuses.

inb4 "ADDING IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES DERP!"
I did not say it's against the rules.

This.
Indeed to be noob is not against the rules.

i am 65% #1 30% #3 and 5% #2

Celteen wrote:

bawww wrote:There are 3 reasons for adding on people who do not want to be added:
1. You are a roleplayer, and you are fighting for your realm (~10% of the adders)
2. You want rps, a lot of rps. But you are horrible at this game (~70% of the adders)
3. You are a griefer, and you do it to ruin other peoples fun (~20% of the adders)

So if you add on people it's because of one of these 3 reasons. Deal with it and stop making up excuses.

inb4 "ADDING IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES DERP!"
I did not say it's against the rules.

4. There are people out here who just play this game as a hm game and dont care about "daoc honor" ololol? Better go and make some daoc holidays you take this whole stuff way to serious.

@ bawww

Word.

@ Celteen

You are just any random example for this... "Deal with it and stop making up excuses."

Nymeros wrote:Are you serious? You've written like seventy walls of text about improving RvR and you're actually saying you have no idea how to "fix" RvR without removing BGs, after which you can say "Well, least people don't hang around in non-present Battlegrounds anymore. Gosh, we sure did fix them RvRs!". A little catch-22ish, don't ya think?

I never said or insinuated that I have no idea how to fix it, I'm just asking how YOU would fix it since you're the one claiming its doable just as good without removing the last BG.

Nice try avoiding the question though. Still waiting for an argumented solution from you.

Nymeros wrote:

Zarkor wrote:Oh and how will you improve the transition between BGs and end-RvR when it's still forcing players to optimise their character completely to compete?

BG twinks are already optimized. Casual players shouldn't even want to hang around in BGs in this brave new world, because they are ALREADY forced into endgame RvR by the RR cap and the prospect of having to ------> level another char for BGs every time <------.

I'm talking about RvR groups which exclude fresh-out-of-thid players because it harms their optimised group setup, increasing their risk of losing since their enemies WILL be optimised to the bone.

So again, how will you improve the transtition bewteen BGs and end-RvR?

lampardinos wrote:[LFG] xxx lf emain
[Group] Uh, hes 4l2 and just went out of thid. lets wait.

Im pretty sure that this is a 'common' sentence and if this player wont find any grp for some days ofc he's gonna twink a new one and go back to the paradise thidranki where everyone gets groups and action. Without BGs Im not even sure if they would continue playing here.

Personally I'd rather take a decent 4l2 player than a noob rr11 meleeing druid/rushing mentalist/one button wonder melee shaman/snaremezzshoutshoutprovoke pianoroll skald etc. It depends more on the group. If the group is so picky on wanting high rrs then you don't wanna join them in the first place since they only look for high rrs to fill the gap caused by lack of skill.

Let me just say this about the whole adding thing.

Adding wouldn't be half as bad if there were enough targets out. There would not only be less reason to add because that one guy in at half health is not going to be your only chance of getting RPs within this and the next 15 minutes, but getting added won't be as bad because you know that you'll have your next fight within a very reasonable amount of time anyway. If you're getting a fight once every 15 mins and 1 out of 2 gets 'ruined' by adders, you'll end up having about 1 good fight every 30 minutes, which is really really poor.

With enough targets out there, people will also be less likely to ragequit. In fact the biggest reason for people to ragequit is when the conditions they are in are looking so bad that they feel that staying online would just be a waste of time because they don't have a chance beating their current opponents any time soon. When there's enough targets out there, chances of encountering the enemies that are sure to beat you are smaller, effectively reducing the need to ragequit after such a loss because there's still targets out there you CAN win from.


Conclusion: fix endRvR so that it attracts more players to participate and adding and ragequitting will be less of a problem. (ofc ppl will still do it though)

Lemonjelly wrote:

lampardinos wrote:[LFG] xxx lf emain
[Group] Uh, hes 4l2 and just went out of thid. lets wait.

Im pretty sure that this is a 'common' sentence and if this player wont find any grp for some days ofc he's gonna twink a new one and go back to the paradise thidranki where everyone gets groups and action. Without BGs Im not even sure if they would continue playing here.

Personally I'd rather take a decent 4l2 player than a noob rr11 meleeing druid/rushing mentalist/one button wonder melee shaman/snaremezzshoutshoutprovoke pianoroll skald etc. It depends more on the group. If the group is so picky on wanting high rrs then you don't wanna join them in the first place since they only look for high rrs to fill the gap caused by lack of skill.

The problem is that even if you know the RR11 sucks, you never know whether the 4L2 sucks. Chances are they are suckier than the RR11, making most players prefer the higher RR, leaving 4L2's to do guard missions/solo or log.

Zarkor wrote:I never said or insinuated that I have no idea how to fix it, I'm just asking how YOU would fix it since you're the one claiming its doable just as good without removing the last BG.

Nice try avoiding the question though. Still waiting for an argumented solution from you.

Err...what? I already said I don't believe OF RvR can be fixed in the way you're suggesting (mainly the "let's hoard xpers through the milegates" approach), but the fact that I don't know what will work doesn't mean I'm somehow forbidden to know what won't.

Zarkor wrote:I'm talking about RvR groups which exclude fresh-out-of-thid players because it harms their optimised group setup, increasing their risk of losing since their enemies WILL be optimised to the bone.

So again, how will you improve the transtition bewteen BGs and end-RvR?

What do those RvR groups and their mindset have to do with BG groups? You're hoping to cure elitism by removing lines of code?

Here's a magic solution for people who'd like to group but are somewhow being discriminated against: JOIN A GUILD.

Nymeros wrote:Err...what? I already said I don't believe OF RvR can be fixed in the way you're suggesting (mainly the "let's hoard xpers through the milegates" approach), but the fact that I don't know what will work doesn't mean I'm somehow forbidden to know what won't.

Oh and you know it won't work because you tried it on your private server which is the exact copy of Uthgard and its playerbase?

Nymeros wrote:What do those RvR groups and their mindset have to do with BG groups? You're hoping to cure elitism by removing lines of code?

Why are you bringing up BG groups? It was about the transition between players that leave BGs and RvR groups.

I'm hoping to give them a better chance of finding an RvR group when they leave the BGs by removing the need to optimise one's character/setup/player skill level to be able to get decent chances of killing something. As long as inviting a possibly inferior (character/class/skill) player drasticly increases your chances of losing because none of your enemies are taking such risks, those players will never be able to fully enjoy endRvR.

This has got nothing to do with elitism, but general player behaviour caused by the overall game setting. People don't play endRvR like they are doing now because they are all elitists, but because they can not afford to take risks which their enemies will not take.

Nymeros wrote:Here's a magic solution for people who'd like to group but are somewhow being discriminated against: JOIN A GUILD.

So, everyone should just join a guild and then they will magicly find a competent RvR group each time they log on and live a happy life in endRvR from 4L2 to RR13. Man, I never knew it was this easy. We should just put this in the loading screen tooltips and the transition between BGs and endRvR is fixed!





Seriously though, it's clear that you don't know how to solve anything at all and you probably don't even care about fixing endRvR. In fact you only care about what you would lose if people that do care attempt to fix it. Even if what you lose is hardly anything noteworthy at all, you magnify it so immensely that you make it seem you actually have an argument to why we should not even be attempting to solve the biggest RvR issue Uthgard currently faces. Because hey, losing something hardly noteworthy is still losing SOMETHING right? We can't have that can we?! I mean ok end RvR is a problem but for the love of god do not try to fix it if that means losing something!

At least I knew where we stand now then...

GoGreen wrote:Sure they can decide, but if they just get ganked too often none will show up at this xp spots
If there are new xp spots in OF they should be designed like in NF, close to the porter keeps.
In NF you could hunt the xper killers quite easily since you can be at the xp spot in no time. If I look at the ellyl spot in OF it will take some time to get there and back to the porter keep. Hence nobody is motivated to hunt a xper ganker at ellyl spot

I agree with what you say about distance, which is where (IMO) a good teleporting system around the frontiers and horse routes come in. We all know the three maps are too big. I see the problems you are laying out, i just think that with the right train of thought they could be overcome. Why shouldn't xp boni move around (increase/decrease) depending on where ppl can teleport to?

And to be fair, in agra duo's etc ran around these spots hoping to come across one of these xp grp killers, hence they will be in time, since they are there. Either way, it opens up more action, small man wise, more options in end game (40+) and keep wise. there's no grey area(you either add/zerg / travel empty zones for an odd kill / play 8v8) ATM. There isn't alot of choice in the end game.

I'd like to set up an xp grp and enjoy leveling in the frontier knowing that at any time we might get an inc.

I'd like to go out as a visible solo/duo/trio and find something to do.

I'd like to raid a keep knowing:
it will improve the way we travel.
it will improve our influence on the area.
it lowers the strength of a relic keeps defences.
access to df.

I'd like to have the option to avoid zergs / adding while running in an 8 man.

And yes, some of the casual bg players, we now hear complaining about elitist this and that, should be able to have a goal in frontiers as well, being it zerging / xp killing / finding an equally balanced group to fight or taking a keep.

Basically, I'd like more choice. ATM it's linear / dull and mostly empty, which is why i don't care for it.

Zarkor wrote:Oh and you know it won't work because you tried it on your private server which is the exact copy of Uthgard and its playerbase?

Oh, and you know it WILL work because you tried it on your private server which is the exact copy of Uthgard and its playerbase?

?

So every suggestion and line of thought are null and void because you have to physically prove them first? Oh, I'm sorry, you only have to prove that stuff doesn't work, not that it does. Because that's how the world works.

Seriously, and I'm not even saying this as an insult, this it the ST.... least intelligent thing you ever wrote in these forums. Ever. =|

Zarkor wrote:Why are you bringing up BG groups? It was about the transition between players that leave BGs and RvR groups.

I'm hoping to give them a better chance of finding an RvR group when they leave the BGs by removing the need to optimise one's character/setup/player skill level to be able to get decent chances of killing something. As long as inviting a possibly inferior (character/class/skill) player drasticly increases your chances of losing because none of your enemies are taking such risks, those players will never be able to fully enjoy endRvR.

This has got nothing to do with elitism, but general player behaviour caused by the overall game setting. People don't play endRvR like they are doing now because they are all elitists, but because they can not afford to take risks which their enemies will not take.

I'm bringing BG groups up because that's what happens when players in a BG... group?

1.) Inviting a possibly inferior player will ALWAYS drastically increase your chances of losing.
2.) People aren't afraid of losing, they are afraid of people in PuGs disbanding after their first/second loss. Again, join a guild.

Zarkor wrote:So, everyone should just join a guild and then they will magicly find a competent RvR group each time they log on and live a happy life in endRvR from 4L2 to RR13. Man, I never knew it was this easy. We should just put this in the loading screen tooltips and the transition between BGs and endRvR is fixed!

Yes, it's that easy. No, it's not perfect and will not work every time, but what it WILL do is:

- give you a pool of people you can count on and make arrangements on to play with you
- give you a pool of people who will tolerate you until you stop being a newb/low RR
- give you a pool of people who will not disband after a wipe or two

And yes, since I just had to write this, it obviously *should* be on the loading screen tooltips.

Zarkor wrote:Seriously though, it's clear that you don't know how to solve anything at all and you probably don't even care about fixing endRvR. In fact you only care about what you would lose if people that do care attempt to fix it. Even if what you lose is hardly anything noteworthy at all, you magnify it so immensely that you make it seem you actually have an argument to why we should not even be attempting to solve the biggest RvR issue Uthgard currently faces. Because hey, losing something hardly noteworthy is still losing SOMETHING right? We can't have that can we?! I mean ok end RvR is a problem but for the love of god do not try to fix it if that means losing something!

At least I knew where we stand now then...

I haven't played a BG char in almost a year. I don't really care about BGs that much as a player. =|

What I DO care about is not doing stupid things and making unnecessary changes you can't back up with a logical line of reasoning and expecting people to just put up with them because you or someone else decided WELL IT CAN'T HURT LOL. Not to mention the little temper tantrums, us vs them nonsense and whatnot.

Oh, and I posted plenty suggestions about fixing endgame RvR. But endgame RvR isn't necessarily OF RvR.

Nymeros wrote:

Zarkor wrote:Oh and you know it won't work because you tried it on your private server which is the exact copy of Uthgard and its playerbase?

Oh, and you know it WILL work because you tried it on your private server which is the exact copy of Uthgard and its playerbase?

No, I know it's worth trying because it has a lot of potential, it's also easy to argument why it could actually work, which is what I have done. Saying a solution won't work without any argument as to why not is something completely different.

Nymeros wrote:What I DO care about is not doing stupid things and making unnecessary changes you can't back up with a logical line of reasoning...

I backed up the reason for these changes over and over with logic and reasoning. You keep bashing them without any of those and now you're claiming it's me who can't back up my suggestion...

Nymeros wrote:Oh, and I posted plenty suggestions about fixing endgame RvR. But endgame RvR isn't necessarily OF RvR.

It is on Uthgard, of course instead of fixing the issues it has your so called solution would be to switch back to NF. Which just isn't gonna happen.

Basicly you're against plausible solutions because you'll only support an unrealistic one, how convenient.

Zarkor wrote:

Nymeros wrote:

Zarkor wrote:Oh and you know it won't work because you tried it on your private server which is the exact copy of Uthgard and its playerbase?

Oh, and you know it WILL work because you tried it on your private server which is the exact copy of Uthgard and its playerbase?

No, I know it's worth trying because it has a lot of potential, it's also easy to argument why it could actually work, which is what I have done. Saying a solution won't work without any argument as to why not is something completely different.

Wow. Just... wow. Instead of manning up to what's possibly the most ludicrous statement ever, you actually have the audacity to *defend* the above quoted bit of insanity?

How do YOU know that your solution has a lot of potential, and I'm somehow unable to know the same thing about mine? Why should you YOU be able to argument why something could actually work, yet when other argument why it CAN'T work you spew nonsense like the little gem quoted above?

Please, quote it a few more times so it get's ingrained in public memory even more. Seriously, wtf.

Zarkor wrote:I backed up the reason for these changes over and over with logic and reasoning. You keep bashing them without any of those and now you're claiming it's me who can't back up my suggestion...

No, you didn't. You haven't got a single argument. All you have is a complex pyramid scheme of half-assed solutions which all depend on the perfect success of one another to even appear credible, let alone actually *work*. Yet notice that I'm only against the BG removal part, because that's the only one that has ABSOLUTELY NO MEANINGFUL CORRELATION to somehow making endgame RvR "better". You make things better by IMPROVING them, not by making other things WORSE.

Zarkor wrote:It is on Uthgard, of course instead of fixing the issues it has your so called solution would be to switch back to NF. Which just isn't gonna happen.

Basicly you're against plausible solutions because you'll only support an unrealistic one, how convenient.

I'm not against it, and if you were able to pull yourself together and post coherently you'd realize that it was you who brought up my opinion on OF/NF into the picture, which you're now using to somehow discredit me. You've made like 7 logical fallacies (along with the one I just described) in this discussion and if this were a debate you'd be politely asked to leave about 2 posts ago.

I'll even tell you why you do it: Becouse you are unable to view any of the things you request as a single entity. You present this GRAND SOLUTION to people, but you're unable to clarify any single element of it when put to the spot. You want to remove BGs, get XPers to the Frontier, make XPers stay while they're being farmed, make people accept casuals even thought they don't, for some inexplicable reason (plain spite?) ignoring guilds entirely which solve a lot of the problems already etc etc. And as soon as someone objects to a part of your solution the whole thing comes tumbling down and then you use the other parts to prop up the collapsing part.

And a return to NF is absolutely not unrealistic. If RvR dies, the server dies. If it comes to that, the staff will have to react. And I'm not at all against trying to improve OF first, if the changes make sense and are not aimed at removing every positive trace of NF from the server. I play here, if more people RvR I win too, no matter what nametag is on the RA and map setting.

**************************************

tl;dr: Removing BGs is stupid.

Nymeros wrote:How do YOU know that your solution has a lot of potential, and I'm somehow unable to know the same thing about mine? Why should you YOU be able to argument why something could actually work, yet when other argument why it CAN'T work you spew nonsense like the little gem quoted above?

Please, quote it a few more times so it get's ingrained in public memory even more. Seriously, wtf.

Your arguments to which solution exactly?

You say you argument why it can't work, please enlighten me then. All you 'argumented' so far is "I know it doesn't work"...

Again, I know my solution is worth trying because the positive impacts of the changes involved are merely logical consequences, thus easily argumented why they should be made.

Nymeros wrote:No, you didn't. You haven't got a single argument. All you have is a complex pyramid scheme of half-assed solutions which all depend on the perfect success of one another to even appear credible, let alone actually *work*. Yet notice that I'm only against the BG removal part, because that's the only one that has ABSOLUTELY NO MEANINGFUL CORRELATION to somehow making endgame RvR "better". You make things better by IMPROVING them, not by making other things WORSE.

The fact that you just said that removing the last BG has no meaningful correlation to improving endgame RvR just says enough for me. It also explains why you believe I "haven't got a single argument". Quite funny to hear that from you actually.

Just for you then: removing the last BG creates a new group of potential frontier population, pve or rvr. This new population draws out others because the chances of finding enough enemies have increased, singificantly increasing overall frontier (RvR) activty, which is IMPROVING RvR.

There, explained it one last time how it improves endRvR, quite logical really...

Nymeros wrote:Becouse you are unable to view any of the things you request as a single entity. You present this GRAND SOLUTION to people, but you're unable to clarify any single element of it when put to the spot.

I've been doing this for the last year and I've just done exactly this for the BG part. Of course, if you refuse to face that fact it's easy to claim I'm "unable to clarify any single element of it when put on the spot".




Clearly you refuse to acknowledge any arguments I make/made, without argumenting anything at all yourself while claiming you are. As long as you're not bringing in arguments I'm done with you on this matter.