vangonaj wrote:Would be nice can cap thidranki at rr 4l8-5, because there are lot of classes with very important rr5 abilities for rvr. But this could kick players from emain to bgs.

I think it would be the other way round, cause as u said: most rr5-abilities boost classes, so they are more useful either solo or on grp - i think 4L8-4L9 would be fine, so ppl would still have to "earn" some rps in end rvr for rr5-ra

edit: if this change is ever gonna come, BPs in BGs would be quite important too, as ppl would really use BGs then and not prefer end-rvr then, even though they are still "low"

vangonaj wrote:Would be nice can cap thidranki at rr 4l8-5, because there are lot of classes with very important rr5 abilities for rvr. But this could kick players from emain to bgs.

There will be no rr5 abilities with old RA if i remeber right.

But i'd happy if it would not be the case, but if stop QQ or at least all who waated old RA stop QQing

People still don't get that players shouldn't be kept in BGs longer but that the BGs should just be better divided throughout the levels and should end sooner than lvl 49 to improve end RvR...

Gorim wrote:There will be no rr5 abilities with old RA if i remeber right.

rr5-ras exist but u have to spend rr-skill-pts to get them

Zarkor wrote:People still don't get that players shouldn't be kept in BGs longer but that the BGs should just be better divided throughout the levels and should end sooner than lvl 49 to improve end RvR...

that is correct, but with the "system" that was proposed on the last page /rp off with the restrictions as described would be pretty good to allow ppl leveling better in BGs - ofc ppl get a little later to end rvr maybe, but they also get to BGs much earlier, cause the can level throughout the BG and not only for the last levels (like a level 36 player can level to 43 in in wilton, which is not possible right now) - more players in bgs then, which is desirable...the little delay of ppl growing out of BGs is worth the trade i think ...the other things proposed (increase bg-cap etc.) were just some idea for changes and not necessarily improvements - just different ways

For instance:
15-19 - 1L5
20-24 - 2L0
25-29 - 2L5
30-34 - 3L0
35-39 - 3L5
40-44 - 4L0

It could work, but it'll mainly just thin out all the action. Plus, you're getting rid of 45-49, why? Won't accomplish anything. Right now it's often times hard enough to find action in the 3 BGs we've got, and doubling that number can only make it harder. Yes, the large level gaps is an issue, but we don't have the population to fill all those BGs. We'll just end up with ghost town battlegrounds and then some active ones :}. You mentioned nasty side effects in my idea, but I see a lot more in yours.

My BG setup:

20-25 1L6
26-35 2L2
36-43 3L6
44-49 5L2

And this would be with the /rp off system mentioned in the previous page. I would also recommend overlapping BGs if that would want to be explored.

Not sure if I need to explain why I like this setup. Basically, it's a touch-up. Let people start the BGs sooner and let them cap what they want when they want, but don't let them keep their twink in the BG forever. Action will be generally the same, considering the fact that Braemar is basically unthinkable before you get to even level 30.

Only potential "problem" is that less people will be forced to PvE and therefore getting groups going will be slightly harder. That being said, I think the concern is negligible as there will still be many times to PvE, such as ... well, when you're tired of RvR, when the BG is dead, when your group got wiped once and you give up, etc

Zarkor wrote:People still don't get that players shouldn't be kept in BGs longer but that the BGs should just be better divided throughout the levels and should end sooner than lvl 49 to improve end RvR...

And you will wait this low level and rr groups in front of atk and mtk with knife and fork ?
In this server no one go to emain before reach level 50.

Hoppip wrote:It could work, but it'll mainly just thin out all the action.

Not necessarily. Because players can actually level through the BG from start to ending they will stay there longer, which counters the "thinning out" effect. Nowadays people can only stay for a few levels in BGs with an at least 6-7 levelrange, so they spend a lot of time outside the BGs to PvE. If they don't have to do that, there's more action.

Hoppip wrote:Plus, you're getting rid of 45-49, why?

Because with the right motivation (increase from 10x to 15x XP per RvR kill in Frontier Zones, better XP opportunities (spots/boni) in Frontier Zones), these players will have the chance to do their thing in the frontiers, in turn making that zone more populated and fun for everyone, even the lvl 45 'fresh out of the BG' players since they too will be able to find an RvR grp if they really want to. After all, they will find enemies which are just as 'weak' as they are if they look for them. I've explained all this in another thread.
Not to mention, players under level 50 going out to the frontiers (not emain necessarily) would actually be in line with classic livelike.

Hoppip wrote:My BG setup:

20-25 1L6
26-35 2L2
36-43 3L6
44-49 5L2

And this would be with the /rp off system mentioned in the previous page. I would also recommend overlapping BGs if that would want to be explored.

Not sure if I need to explain why I like this setup. Basically, it's a touch-up. Let people start the BGs sooner and let them cap what they want when they want, but don't let them keep their twink in the BG forever. Action will be generally the same, considering the fact that Braemar is basically unthinkable before you get to even level 30.

Only potential "problem" is that less people will be forced to PvE and therefore getting groups going will be slightly harder. That being said, I think the concern is negligible as there will still be many times to PvE, such as ... well, when you're tired of RvR, when the BG is dead, when your group got wiped once and you give up, etc

We're looking to solve the same issues, but I just don't agree with your solution because it will maintain the problem with players getting into end RvR.

vangonaj wrote:And you will wait this low level and rr groups in front of atk and mtk with knife and fork ?
In this server no one go to emain before reach level 50.

That's because of the current setting, not because of the players...

Because with the right motivation (increase from 10x to 15x XP per RvR kill in Frontier Zones, better XP opportunities (spots/boni) in Frontier Zones), these players will have the chance to do their thing in the frontiers, in turn making that zone more populated and fun for everyone, even the lvl 45 'fresh out of the BG' players since they too will be able to find an RvR grp if they really want to. After all, they will find enemies which are just as 'weak' as they are if they look for them. I've explained all this in another thread.
Not to mention, players under level 50 going out to the frontiers (not emain necessarily) would actually be in line with classic livelike.

This is not realistic. You should very well know that the game does not work this way. A level 45 player will not find respectable action in the frontiers. No, no, no, no. They're food for the Level 50s. Players will be out there trying to EXP, and most RvR encounters will be against Level 50s who are looking for some easy RPs. Did we have good action in Agramon while trying to level? No, we did not. Agramon has very popular leveling spots, but clashes between lower level characters were rare and usually only occurred once. Not even close to being a substitute for a full BG setting. And this includes times where the BG in question was dead.

but I just don't agree with your solution because it will maintain the problem with players getting into end RvR.

Nonsense. Forcing players to EXP after reaching 44 (YES, this is what you are suggesting, please don't try to suggest otherwise), will never help them get into Level 50 any better.

And no, Zarkor, I don't care if more players "stay" in the BGs, the number of players actively in them will not double. Players will still PvE, action will die down, you're not being realistic. Even on live with a bigger population, there were battlegrounds that were inactive. It's just how it happens.

Your so-called solution for getting people into Level 50 RvR is... to force them to go before they can even compete? To go out and try and build groups that incorporate level 45-49 characters and go compete? That's completely ludicrous .

My solution is very simple, make the BGs start earlier and work better, and let players leave with a higher Realm Rank cap so they can compete better in 50 RvR with potentially more PvP experience under their belt. Why you feel a system that not only relies on improvements in another area (da frontiers) and forcing players to RvR in a zone where they can't fully compete is better continues to elude me.

Improving the frontiers with better leveling spots and whatnot is certainly a good idea, but it'll never be a place for lower level people to have fun RvR in. Forcing them to go there won't make it so, either. You'll just end up with a crappy spot for RvR and a place to EXP when you think it's safe. :}

Suggestions have been made as well as some player opinions are gathered here. Maybe the Staff will do something out of this?

I dont want to close the thread now but ask upcoming posters to stay constructive and on-topic.
Thanks

Hoppip wrote:This is not realistic. You should very well know that the game does not work this way. A level 45 player will not find respectable action in the frontiers. No, no, no, no. They're food for the Level 50s. Players will be out there trying to EXP, and most RvR encounters will be against Level 50s who are looking for some easy RPs. Did we have good action in Agramon while trying to level? No, we did not. Agramon has very popular leveling spots, but clashes between lower level characters were rare and usually only occurred once. Not even close to being a substitute for a full BG setting. And this includes times where the BG in question was dead.

I think your theory has a crucial flaw. You are assuming that the frontier potential population will remain exactly the same, while ONLY removing the latest BG. This makes it SEEM as if there would simply be a huge gap where players don't have a chance but XP because end RvR is a big nono before level 50 (4L2).

The big difference however is that players who want to XP will do so a lot more in the frontier zones when the xp spots and boni get fixed. This will lead to a serious increase in frontier PvE activity, which consists not only of those 45+ players, but also of basicly players all the way down to lvl 20, when they can start xping in the frontiers. What this means is that the entire concept of endgame RvR will differ enormously.

Smallman and more casual RvR grps/solos will start roaming around looking for a fight or an unlucky xper/xp grp, making the overall smaller action skyrocket (also because caster smallman/solo RvR becomes very viable with OldRAs). This newly revived form of action is based upon a solid PvE activity by players that go as low as lvl 20 which creates a steady RvR incentive for zones that currently are only inhabited by the insuffuciently attractive amount of actual RvR players. To some, xpers are the primary target, to others, they are part of their ambush. What this means is that this new action will not require the player to be fully maximised in temp/skill/coordination/... no, they will be able to perform and have a satisfying RvR experience in a way more casual setting than we see today in Emain because there actually are players out there they can kill, even at level 45 without a template.

Surely, players that DO maximise their setup as we're seeing now will have the upperhand, but that's where you need that x15 or even better x20 XP per RvR kill combined with the lvl 44 BG end for. They provide the less optimised players with the incentive to team up and actually RvR. However the incentive alone is not enough, you NEED an active and reliable playerbase to support such an incentive, otherwise there just wouldn't be enough players to make it all happen. That is the actual reason why removing that last BG is in fact so important, it provides the crucial amount of new potential endRvR players needed to both provide easy access to casual/smallman RvR groups and thus of course inherently easy access to enemy targets. My whole theory is based upon the concept of creating the will to do something (make RvR in frontiers attractive to non 50s) while at the same time supporting that will by providing a solid and reliable active playerbase (last BG ends at 44).

Because the entire scope of frontierzone population will get broader, RvR groups won't consist of purely lvl 45-49 players vs only lvl 50s. Specificly smallman groups will be a lot more open to non50s since there the necessity to fully maximise your potential is gone due to the fact that your enemies will not by far be maximised either. This is far from the case in the current state, and also the reason why RvR with anything below lvl 50 4L2 seems complete suicide.

Hoppip wrote:Nonsense. Forcing players to EXP after reaching 44 (YES, this is what you are suggesting, please don't try to suggest otherwise),will never help them get into Level 50 any better.

As explained above, my theory is based upon creating an attractive RvR environment for non-optimised players, be it in terms of levels, gear, RR, skill, whatever. This, combined with the further increased XP per RvR kill in the frontier zones (x20 perferably) creates a setting where endgameRvR actually can replace BG RvR in terms of "leveling through RvR" for the last 5 levels. This is also why there is no such thing as "Forcing players to EXP/PvE after reaching lvl 45", because they actually have a very viable choice between PvE and RvR.

Hoppip wrote:And no, Zarkor, I don't care if more players "stay" in the BGs, the number of players actively in them will not double. Players will still PvE, action will die down, you're not being realistic. Even on live with a bigger population, there were battlegrounds that were inactive. It's just how it happens.

I will agree that you have a point here. Allthough, I find live to be a bad reference since PLing and BB leveling is more or less the rule there, which makes solo/enclosed PvE the way to go. That's also why there barely are any real XP grps etc. In any case, I guess it might be good if my 5 BGs were toned down to 4. Allthough the end level should definately be around 44 and the level where BG RvR first becomes viable around lvl 20.

Hoppip wrote:Your so-called solution for getting people into Level 50 RvR is... to force them to go before they can even compete? To go out and try and build groups that incorporate level 45-49 characters and go compete? That's completely ludicrous .

It's not because as explained above it's completely different from that. I create an environment where they CAN compete, while at the same time make RvRing in the frontiers really attractive in terms of characterprogression (even higher xp rewards for RvR kills) to reward the risks that go with it.

Hoppip wrote:My solution is very simple, make the BGs start earlier and work better, and let players leave with a higher Realm Rank cap so they can compete better in 50 RvR with potentially more PvP experience under their belt. Why you feel a system that not only relies on improvements in another area (da frontiers) and forcing players to RvR in a zone where they can't fully compete is better continues to elude me.

My solution is superior because not only does it focus on improving the BG experience, like yours, on top of that it allows players to flow naturally into end RvR by actually making it attractive without forcing them to fully optimise their temp/level/... It creates the middle ground between fullsized bigboy end RvR (Emain zerg/8v8, what we have now) and BGs. Instead of dumping players at level 49, forcing them to compete with higher RealmRank players without any possibility whatsoever to improve their character than by trying to compete against those improved characters.
On top of this, by engaging themselves in end RvR before actually maximising at least their level and gear, they will get used to both fighting in OF, as well as fighting enemies that are naturally stronger than them (in a 1v1 view). These 2 aspects are ideal to prepare them for a lasting and rewarding endgame RvR experience, which in turn will make the end RvR population increase significantly and reliably over time.

Ironically, as you might have noticed, the setting we have now is actually the setting that dumps players that capped Thid into endgame RvR without really giving them a chance. There is a lack of open groupforming in End RvR because there is no real smallman action, while at the same time locking fresh-out-of-Thid players out of established RvR groups because those groups will not want to take the risk of being under-optimised compared to their enemies, who also do not want to afford losing due to under-optimisation of the teamsetup, creating an inpenetrable spiral which basicly locks out newer players from end RvR.

That's also why it doesn't matter at what RR the BGs end, and why there is no such thing as "get more RvR experience to prepare for end RvR" because BG RvR is nothing like end RvR, at all. Groups will still be unlikely to invited newcomers and newcomers will still be unable to solo/smallman viably enough to really enjoy themselves. The whole setting is simply flawed and needs a complete revamp, which my theory is an example of.



I hope I clarified myself enough here, feel free to ask if not.

Because the entire scope of frontierzone population will get broader, RvR groups won't consist of purely lvl 45-49 players vs only lvl 50s. Specificly smallman groups will be a lot more open to non50s since there the necessity to fully maximise your potential is gone due to the fact that your enemies will not by far be maximised either. This is far from the case in the current state, and also the reason why RvR with anything below lvl 50 4L2 seems complete suicide.

Well, I like how you enjoy repeating yourself, but this just isn't realistic. You're not going to transform end RvR with this. You can't "make" an untemplated lowbie suddenly viable when templated 50s are readily available. You can't "make" people who are trying to EXP suddenly be interested in going and RvRing. You can't expect steady, fair, enjoyable action in this kind of setup. It's, once again, ludicrous to assume that people are just gonna start grouping lowbies and suddenly that will be what people will do.

Now, if you'd like to know what actually causes the difficulty in people getting into Level 50 RvR, here are a list of fictitious reasons:

-Players haven't yet had any real experience in the frontiers
-There aren't enough EXPers to gank in the frontiers, so more need to be forced out

And here's a list of real reasons:

-Templating is an expensive and long process, and players who may have been able to have fun in the BGs without a template know that going into the frontiers without one isn't advisable. Result: players wait a long time to get a template, and possibly give up and roll a new toon.
-RR and skill gaps, players often get frustrated by being beaten by opponents who have much higher RR and experience they do, making it an unfair place to fight.
-Many classes unwanted in RvR groups. Yay, I got my wizard to 50! What's that? Don't want a wizard? Well... dang.
-Weak smallman action, unpopulated zones (Odin's Gate, Hadrian's Wall), obviously if you can't or don't want to get a group, you're gonna want to smallman, and the action can be fairly disappointing.

The only thing you seem to be addressing is the smallman action, and you're addressing the wrong thing. We don't want to generate action for 50s on Lowbies, we want 50s on 50s. Attempting to remedy the situation of dead frontiers by forcing people who are still leveling and templating to take the blow is honestly probably one of the worst solutions I've ever read in my life. Attacking the battlegrounds is not the way to improve the life of Level 50 players.

Hm... I just noticed that this kind of battlegrounds change is off topic as it isn't a battlegrounds improvement, the only thing you really seem to have in mind there is Frontiers improvements, whereas all we're here to discuss is RP Gain in the Battlegrounds, and not Not Enough Levelers in the Frontiers. I say if we want to discuss this, we should do it elsewhere. ;D

Hoppip and Zrawkor,

I appreciate your opinions stated and your participation here,

but

please think of new people bringing new aspects in this thread and dont turn your discussion into a circle. If you want discuss 1by1, do it via send

See if some other people want to write in here without reading wall-of-texts again

Zarkor wrote:People still don't get that players shouldn't be kept in BGs longer but that the BGs should just be better divided throughout the levels and should end sooner than lvl 49 to improve end RvR...

Thats the point. Even prolonging the stay in BG's is the wrong direction to go. We increased the cap in the past above RR4 to help players get ready for main RvR. That was already the max possible limit we would allow.

BG RvR is not the main RvR, its intended for learning purposes only.

Never declined that and i share this opinion Blue. I just wanted to remind you that its -selfstated- "not working as intended" and maybe we help you find solutions.

Please dont take it as a "i want more BG"-Thread, because i dont.
(Just was annoyed to rp cap out everytime 3-4 lvls before^^)

vangonaj wrote:And you will wait this low level and rr groups in front of atk and mtk with knife and fork ?
In this server no one go to emain before reach level 50.

My friends and I have been going to Emain almost each night since we were in Wilton. The first time we went to Emain, we were all only level 20. That was fun. Made some full group blow SoS haha. We are in the Thidranki level range now. There isn't always enough action in the Battlegrounds. Sometimes only stealthers are there. So we mix up some BG time with taking a keep in the frontier and going to Emain. Last night we went to AMG thinking we were going to suicide, ran into some Mids and none of us died. We even had a guildy in his 20's with us. We had to find some guards to kill us instead.

Its all about having fun.

On Topic: I usually try to avoid going too early to a Battleground as I have seen too many people RP out before reaching the top level of the BG. Braemar I had exp off at 35, Wilton I was finished with it before I ever hit 43.