the custom change is no bots, its already been done.


making venom go away on log out is an implementation of the change. limiting the range of buffs is an implementation of the change as well.


Leaving venom bots in, but not allowing dual log and limiting buff range is just inconsistent.

Force wrote:the custom change is no bots, its already been done.


making venom go away on log out is an implementation of the change. limiting the range of buffs is an implementation of the change as well.


Leaving venom bots in, but not allowing dual log and limiting buff range is just inconsistent.

Dual logging is not forbidden by client/server but it's forbidden by the rules.
The implementation of a buff range is a way to keep this rule when regarding afk buffer who act like a buffbot.
The staff could have banned those ppl without adding a buffrange but the crying would have been enormous.

Blue wrote:

vangonaj wrote:Where is the problem? I dont see big difference between 100 and 101 custom changes XD.

Exactly statement like yours prevent more custom changes on Uthgard! I pointed to a thread of intended custom changes. Everything else is a bug.

THE VERY REASON THERE IS SO MUCH QQ ABOUT PROBLEMS (that would require 'custom' solutions) IS BECAUSE THE STAFF IS REFUSING TO DEAL WITH THEM BY USING THE NON-ARGUMENT THAT PLAYERS WOULD QQ EVEN MORE THAN YOU ARE MAKING THEM QQ NOW. THE ONLY THING THAT IS MAKING PLAYERS QQ IS THE FACT THAT PROBLEMS ARE NOT SOLVED, CUSTOM SOLUTION OR NOT. SOLVING IMPORTANT PROBLEMS LEADS TO A GUARANTEED DECREASE OF QQ, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

You need only 1 thing to prevent needless customisations to have even the slightest chance of being considered, ever. That 1 thing is COMMON SENSE. Nothing more, nothing less. It seems there is an extreme fobia of having to use it when people propose certain changes, so out of pure anxiety that there should actually be thought about whether or not a proposal is good for this server and its goals, it is decided that every proposal is bad in its nature. This way, nobody has to think about them, nobody has to use any form of common sense to judge it because it can always be stated that the proposal is pure evil, even tho it would save this server a LOT of trouble.

So, all this "QQ about custom" NONSENSE can be prevented by using simple common sense. All I'm asking is to put the common sense you have (and I don't doubt you have it) to some use.





There, I've said it. I'm only trying to do us all a favor here by pressing this fact, this is not an assault to anyone or anything, just stating the facts loud and clear for everyone to see them. Please do not lock or edit this post because it would only take us further from solving anything anywhere ever.

Kind regards,
Zarkor


Oh and PS: All that nonsense about trying to say something is not custom but a 'rule' or a 'policy' is simply stupid. Custom = That what is not livelike, period. You might want to call it rules or policies, but they are still custom rules and custom policies. It's time to name things as they are to be honest...


Please refrain from using size 150

Nixian

One of the goals of Uthgard was to do things better than Mythic.
One of the main things was the Buffbot rule.
Mythic would never ever do anything against a paying customer - but Uthgard has none.

Even while DoTs only do 75% and less damage compared to a non-Viper Assassin, you still have debuffs and stuff.
Easiest thing would be to just don't let poisons proc with no Envenom skill - maybe it's custom but honestly on live I rarely saw someone (ab)using this.

Razzer wrote:One of the goals of Uthgard was to do things better than Mythic.

From principle, yes. But it was assumed that Mythic did the major mistakes later than in classic times. The things to do better when still in a classic patch are the customization which must be reasoned and listed.

Razzer wrote:Easiest thing would be to just don't let poisons proc with no Envenom skill - maybe it's custom but honestly on live I rarely saw someone (ab)using this.

I saw it in a live video and read on VNboards about it.

What you propose is what I have in mind as a solution. Don't let the poison apply when the poison user has no Envenom skill. So in this case the weapons poison doesn't gets magically lost but can't be used. Another thing would be to introduce a serious penalty for poison effectivity if Envenom skill is not available like 20% effectivity.

easiest thing would to just remove poisons when items were put in a vault

that way players who got friends and play in group can still benefit from this (like in classic times) however players can't level a poisonbot.

Blue wrote:From principle, yes. But it was assumed that Mythic did the major mistakes later than in classic times. The things to do better when still in a classic patch are the customization which must be reasoned and listed.

This assumption is wrong."Classic" times didn't have room for making mistakes because the game was new and unknown, nobody could realize what's a mistake and what's not a mistake. Pretty every much imbalance thread you see pop up on uthgard forums is something that's been resolved on live years ago, mostly during the darkness rising expansion, and it's something you'd be inclined to call mistakes (like it's a good thing that 50% of the classes are nearly extinct in rvr in a "classic" environment). The only mistake mythic did is taking so long to deal with these issues, long after the dreaded ToA expansion and as a result many biased players will see everything ToA and beyond as a bad thing. ToA sucked sure, but the class balancing acts that came long after don't and it's something you should consider imo.

Don't mistake class balancing with making classes more equal and not as distinct as they should be. This was the trend on live for quite some time now. Else you end up having the ideal balance of all player playing the same class.

Blue wrote:

Razzer wrote:One of the goals of Uthgard was to do things better than Mythic.

From principle, yes. But it was assumed that Mythic did the major mistakes later than in classic times. The things to do better when still in a classic patch are the customization which must be reasoned and listed.

Reasoned, yes, exactly. Like I said, common sense. Common sense clarifies whether or not the mistake is gamebreaking enough to require a solution or not.

90% of the cases that are currently proposed are a "mistake by Mythic", and thus a problem on Uthgard, the fact of the matter is that these 90% ARE gamebreaking enough (backed up by reasoning and common sense) to require a custom solution, which is why the community will not accept the neglection or intentional ignoring of these problems. The community is simply right! The extensively gamebreaking problems are not acceptable and neither is the neglection of them!

However, when such a case is NOT clearly gamebreaking enough, and thus do not require a custom solution, it is enough for the staff to say so after a clear and objective overview of the problem and its arguments to prevent any further demands or complaints regarding the problem. After all, when common sense tells us that the problem is not gamebreaking enough, common sense tells us whining about it is not helping either. The only thing that would help are valid arguments, which in such a case are very limited anyway.

The PROBLEM however is that you, the staff, refuses to reason about these changes at all. You refuse to accept the fact that some problems are indeed gamebreaking enough (backed up by VERY well argumented reasoning) to be dealt with. In other words you refuse to listen to the arguments themselves because you think that if you do so, you are actually listening to the complaints instead of the arguments. You THINK that if you "give in" in to these arguments (which are followed by complaints the more they get ignored) about problems that are clearly gamebreaking enough, you are actually giving in to the complaints themselves and thus opening the so called box of pandora where every so called problem just needs enough complaints to eventually have a chance of being "solved".

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
The RIGHT way to do this is by acknowleding valid argumentation and common sense which determines whether or not a problem is gamebreaking or not and then decide from there on which solution fits best. Unargumented complaints have NO revelance to whether or not that problem is gamebreaking enough to be considered important enough for a solution and should thus be IGNORED. They do not explain why a problem is gamebreaking, they are only a bad way of asking a solution that might or might not be necessary depending on the ARGUMENTS related to the problem.

A major problem we have now is that the more the problems are being ignored, the more the arguments are being pushed away by the complaints. Arguments seem to have lost their relevance between the immense amount of complaints (even though arguments are the ONLY relevant aspect to determine whether or not a solution is needed) because the staff did not acknowledge them (by stating that the problem is indeed in need of a solution) when they were presented. That is why it seems that the majority of the problems -from old to new- thrive on complaints and will always bring complaints with them instead of arguments.

I am 100% sure that if you start dealing with these problems in an objective manner, while listening and talking about them in a constructive and argumenting way to lead to a clear conclusion whether or not the problems should be resolved, it would not only remove all complaints about those problems, but would ALSO encourage players to present new problems with arguments to start such a productive discussion instead of complaints that lead to nothing anyway. In other words, dealing with the problems and acknowledging the objective arguments will lead to a LOT less complaints (or QQ if you will, I really hate that 'word') in general. Even if that means 5 extra custom factors on Uthgard, it will STILL lead to less complaints and less "box of pandora" situations.



...*sigh* I hope someone actually reads this and thinks it through.

@Zarkor: Read and thought through.

However having a public discussion is not possible, due to the vast amounts of flame, QQ, etc.

More personal and closed discussions with few players give a better forum for thoughts to be shared and for changes to be made. So if a player truly wants something changed he should contact us individually instead of making a discussion on the forum. Because the forum will lead to flames, QQ, etc. no matter what. And by contacting us on a one to one basis we(the staff) are able to give a personal feedback to each argument. On the forums these arguments gets lost as you say so yourself.

We do want to listen to the community and to make Uthgard a better server. However the forum is just not the place for such things to happen in a civil and objective way.

@Trishin: I agree that there will always be flames, QQ and whatnot, but those could be countered by moderating them correctly in my opinion. Of course, from that point of view, a more personal approach does solve that problem, but on the other hand it is vulnerable on a different level. A level that is a lot more important imo.

Transparency. I and every other player has their opinions, but surely not every player nor staffmember has the perfect arguments or counterarguments to whatever they want to discuss. Having the discussion open to everyone prevents issues from being viewed on onesidedly and superficially, which I think is a lot more dangerous regarding drawing conclusions based upon such conversations. Also, it would prevent causing repeated proposals by different players who do not know from eachother what has been asked before.

If there really are no possibilities to find a middleground, I guess I'll have to start contacting GMs about the problems we're facing.

I've read through your post Zarkor und do agree with it. Over time I developed a resistance against any custom change because as I explained players use that as argument to set pressure on more deviations from live servers.

I see an important difference in this poison topic compared to other change requests. To make use of that flaw you have to logout of the game login another char poison the weapons and return to your other char. This is indeed NOT normal gameplay as it would be intended.
Mythic assumes you are logged in continously and play your char. Its not a game element to log another char and do stuff there and return to the original char and make use of what you did with the other char. Its more or less called exploit then.

Blue wrote:I've read through your post Zarkor und do agree with it. Over time I developed a resistance against any custom change because as I explained players use that as argument to set pressure on more deviations from live servers.

I see an important difference in this poison topic compared to other change requests. To make use of that flaw you have to logout of the game login another char poison the weapons and return to your other char. This is indeed NOT normal gameplay as it would be intended.
Mythic assumes you are logged in continously and play your char. Its not a game element to log another char and do stuff there and return to the original char and make use of what you did with the other char. Its more or less called exploit then.

So this will be fixed or not? Im temped to start a Envenom service with my NS just to make a point until this is fixed. Everyone can PM me then and get their weapons envenomed and i will run to there houses in housing for free to envenom vaulted weapons. All will be free of charge.

Myself i will never use a venom bot even thou i can. Its so lame and really makes easy kills as poison is very good on a classic server, it woudnt be as good on live due to the extra hits so none used this "feature". Community would flame em to death to but sadly this server is so full of lame behaviour so no one cares.

Transparency is an issue yes. However having private and personal talks between players and staff should not be the only basis for changes. These ideas should of course be tested with the community and the other staff members.

However this is less of a problem than having discussions going nowhere in the public. I would rather have personal talks with the community and a few of its members, than I would like to hear 100 anon persons cry about something on the forum when I am trying to decide what needs to be done and what doesn't need to be done. Simply because crying, etc is useless in a debate and often spin up issues that are really not issues because people are afraid of changes (or no changes).

I think the intended use of shared poison by mythic, was that when your grouped up with an assassin, that assassin could assist the small man group by providing useful poisons. Which give them a little group buffing, and not just to be a soloer. But the problem is that people get these poisons and add it to many extra weapons, then go on there own. Which does not help the assassin get to be grouped with another, for his/her services. Instead one may roll an assassin for bot purposes. But on live server, such practices got out of control, and most of the time you don't see mythic fixing it, one reason being it helps provide every accounts bought, or time wasted on a dummy bot char, which means money for them. But uthgard has no reasons for that, and the design of the game, giving poisons to assassins, to lower an enemy's stats and do damage. It also provide some minor benefits for adding one to your group. But the current situation takes away those aspects of the game and people are running around with benefits that does cost them. And what i mean by that is. When you spec for something in this game, you lose spec points into something else. High envenom for an assassin means a little less points into somewhere else. But botting allows no skill decrease for these benefits.

Another issue is that not everyone has the option to use this form of poison botting. For example my ranger, or any archer has to carry arrows / material and already get close to encumbrance, especially if they get debuffed. So carrying any extra melee weapons is not as easy for everyone. Also non buffers with low str may has similar problems. And those who use weapons, that an assassin can not equipted to poison, can not use this bonus, like others can.