Nymeros wrote:

My proposed changes would prove effective in NF aswell, that's how it's not necessarily linked to OF.

No, they wouldn't. We had NF here and it worked perfectly fine.

...

As for the XP groups, I rest my case.

Basicly in NF it worked perfectly fine, but in OF it would suddenly be hell on earth? Seriously, you're trying to make a big deal of XPing in an RvR zone, which is complete bullshit as we know from NF. This is not an argument and stop trying to make it one by offering meaningless set-up situations.

Besides, even if you say it worked 'perfectly fine' (even though NF got modified lots of times), my proposed changes would still bring more players into RvR regardless. Yes, I know you don't think it does because IT MUST BE LINKED TO OF, right? Or no, it wouldn't work anyway cus u can't survive as an xper in OF...

Nymeros wrote:I will honestly try not to make a big deal of you insinuating that BG's (of _all_ things) have somehow ruined DAoC. I'll just say that they had absolutely NOTHING to do with this, except that they made Mythic realize just how badly people wanted to play differently then they were playing at the time, which lead to NF maps and keeps.

I was actually saying that on live, due to other aspects of the game, casual players were already getting driven away regardless of the changing BG setup.

Nymeros wrote:...
You do realise that, in your world, the path of LEAST resistance is LEVELING CHARACTERS TO 50 _REPETEADLY__ and then only being able to play them to 4L2?
...

You do realise that the alternative equals months of getting annoyed by trying to enjoy yourself in a videogame? Any PvE beats that. At least the things you attack actually die. What would they care about not getting further than 4L2 if they don't enjoy themselves in end RVR anyway?

You really don't seem to get this do you?

Nymeros wrote:All I can say is that any RvR system that can't withstand this sort of competition, and for which endless leveling provides the path of "least" resistance doesn't deserve to exist, no matter what it's called or in what year it originally existed.

I'm past the mob fix, which should bring OF closer to NF's smallman population. It's about getting even more players into RvR and allowing the casual players to gradually soak into end RvR while standing a chance without having to optimise every detail of their character. Basicly, by allowing a more BG-like playstyle in end RvR due to the fact that even the suckiest players will find 'weaker' enemies for instance if they simply level to 50 before they go RvR (since there would be level 44+ players out there). Of course the suckiest players will still die, but I'm just putting an example.

Thalien wrote:As much as i like your ideas and would love to see it to be like in the early days i have to say that it's just too late.

You couldn't be more wrong!

There are still new players starting on this server every day. There are still players quitting Uthgard every day because of not finding groups in end RvR since real pugs hardly even exist anymore. The new level 50s come in one by one in an "I don't invite people I don't know" world because they don't want to waste their time with possible failure. So, most of these new players die out one by one, like I said, either to BGs or to some other game/server.

THIS HAS TO STOP! And it's only fundamental changes like the ones I propose that even come close to fixing this.

Thalien wrote:People are seeking too much perfection today in daoc. They rarely go out when one class is missing and you can't change the players mind.

They are doing so because end RvR is becoming more and more unforgiving to imperfection due to less and less PuGs and new fresh players. It's becoming a select club of people that know eachother and gather more and more RR every time, whereas many of the newer players simply leave or re-roll because they don't get invited or can't make a grp of their own since they don't know enough players to form an 8man, let alone compete.

Zarkor, I do see your PoV but I have to respectfully disagree.

I've been playing in Thidranki for the past 3 weeks on a daily basis, and I've grouped extensively as and when the need arises.

The number of times that we have put together a "decent"/able-to-step-into-emain FG setup is ~3. Out of these 3 instances, less than 50% of the group is SCed.

Majority of the time, the group is a high concentration of tanks/casters with no pac/aug healer (I play Midgard). When we do get a pac healer, 50% of the time the pac healer knows how to use casted CC.

Now tell me, with the statistics above, albeit raw, do you think I will be inclined to step into emain to try my luck against the duos/4-mans/6-mans as you suggested? No, I would rather go to Malm with my rag-tag PUG and get slow and steady XP, instead of getting farmed by the emain regulars.

I enjoy RvR, and if I had a guild of 7 other people, with voicechat and optimal classes, then sure, your idea would make sense. But name me a guild like this that exists on Uthgard, because I have yet to see them appear in Thidranki.

Trying to recreate the game(RvR) as it was in the very old days will never work. Mainly because it is a question of mentality. You can recreate the settings as closely as possible but that feeling can not be ressurected. Also the playerpool was just 3/4 times bigger than Uthgard's. You had these zerg fights and everyone welcome because there just were so many people in such a small zone. Uthgard doesn't have that playerpool, not even potentially. I had as much fun back then as the next man back then but I've also come to terms that those days are over and it's time people accepted that.

Before you say LULZGOTOEDEN I'm in no way saying a classic setting can't work, after all that 's what this server is about. ](Though it does make me wonder how people are okay with rvr horses but real good additions like cure nearsight are shot down. But that's another topic)
The ever returning arguement for quitting DAoC is stuff like ToA, too much grind and stuff like that. Rarely do I hear complaints about the NF map/concept. Instead of blindly trying to copycat everything from 2003 why can't we combine the best of both worlds to create a truely good server.

NF is quite obviously better for all kinds of RvR orientated people. Heck even me as pretty hardcore 8v8 player enjoyed the keep/tower fights there, here it just makes me alt+tab and do something interesting. You can fluff OF, and Zarkors suggestion do make sense that's not even the point, it is just too fundamentally inferior that it seems a waste of time. Honestly do the textures that cover OF emain or odins really increase your RvR pleasure? Does fighting in Emain bowl or amg really give you the same feeling as it did in 2003 (put aside that that's so long ago you can hardly remember)? Sure I thought I missed it too but in essence all I missed was the old days and they are gone. Playing the same map won't change that.


tl;dr: Let's stop trying to copy days that are dead and gone by clinging on to a map and try to revitalize RvR in an easier and more logical way. All your classic settings in a better map.

PS. I'm aware that returning to NF is highly unlikely but hey I'm only voicing my opinion. We had NF on this server for years with fun rvr, don't tell me it has no place here.

Instead of blindly trying to copycat everything from 2003 why can't we combine the best of both worlds to create a truely good server.

We almost had that at one point. Then we went in the complete opposite direction.

@Voloxy: your view is too shallow to be honest. Acting like my changes would put the current Thid population in a frontier as we know it now is simply wrong. The players that can now go to Thid will never be able to compete with current days Emain RvR.

The changes I propose are focused on making it possible to go out with those Thid based groups as we're having now, but (unless in a zerg) in less hostile zones such as Hadrians and Odin's to go out and fight similarly strong opponents or xp grps. This possibility only arises with an appropriate amount of incentive for the ex-BG players to head out in the frontier (aka a viable return in character progression), so that there will be enough allies and enemies to sustain this kind of action in the frontiers.

This way, instead of being dropped in Emain as a freshly BG capped player, you can build up experience and get used to the new class of opponents without getting annoyed by the lack of groupable allies and killable enemies. This way, the game won't be one tedious waste of time to those who leave the BGs but do not instantly double their skill level, giving them finally an incentive to stick around and try doing better gradually, without having to get annoyed by trying to RvR for the coming months.



@Maidrion: It seems that the reason players like you disagree with my suggestion is because you're of the opinion that NF is just better and that we shouldn't bother wasting our time with OF anyway. Instead of supporting the attempt to optimise OF's potential, you disapprove of attempting to do so. It feels to me as if you are afraid of changes like these to actually work, to make RvR actually good in OF, since it would just decrease your chances of ever seeing NF on this server again. Fair enough, i guess that's what I would do in your position. Unfortunately, I'm not in such a position.

Personally, I like this server because it is classic, and even though I disagree on the approach on several balance topics, I still prefer this server to have OF and Old RAs rather than anything else. I know these 2 elements have their flaws, but I rather accept them untill we can agree on a solution than to throw them away, together with their immense classic aspect which is one of the largest factors that attract new players to this server. Regardless however, Uthgard is simply the only option for players like me, for players who still prefer to play DAoC the classic way. That is the main reason why I don't want this server to be a 'mixture of both worlds', since it will end up being more like the Classic servers from live, where you can only sense a hint of what was real classic DAoC.

We all have our views on the perfect DAoC server, on how WE would shape Uthgard. I believe what seperates our views the most is that -luckily for me I guess- I happen to generally think along with what the staff has in mind with this server. Even if I do not agree with their choices on several points, their general direction is something I am willing to work with and support overall. I'm attempting to help optimise the setting that they are moving to today in order to form an improved, but still very real classic DAoC server. Your view(s) on the other hand simply do not match what they have in mind, at all. If it were up to you we'd be at patch 1.8x, with NF, and possibly even some ToA content.

I personally don't believe this server will ever go that direction (again). I think your hopes for Uthgard to become a server which in your opinion is the resemblance of an ideal DAoC server are in vain. You are completely entitled to that opinion, of course, but therefore opposing improvements on how to improve this server in reality is not going to help you get any closer to your ideals I'm afraid, nor will it help the server you are actually playing on.

Voloxy wrote:A FG of 44+ PvE toons will not stand a chance in a RvR zone.

Holsten above who is agreeing with you has killed a FG of Albs in DF with a shaman.

W00t i am so uber

Can't really remember such, but could it have been at hulk spot with tantchen as shaman? Then there was lot of luck involved also, the albs just had a big pull, tantchen's ichor 3 hit nealy all of them and albs concentrated too long on the mobs.

A normal lvl 44+ grp that knows a little how to behave in rvr and doesn't have 4 purple mobs on them should always be able to kill a warri and a shaman.
But on the other hand one sniper can wipe the whole lvl grp, if the level grp does really big pulls and he waits for the best moment.

But that is what i call fun, for the farmers as well as for the level grp . Both sides have the chance to win.
We did smaller pulls than normal while lvling in agramon, a litte less exp but some nice fights against gankers.

Well, I think I can actually have some input on this conversation, so here is my first post.

I'm relatively new to Uthgard, don't even have a lvl 50 char yet or anything, so maybe I at least have a different perspective than some of the established veterans here. I understand both sides of this argument of taking away the BG from 44+. Why not have both? I think the ideas presented by Zarkor are going in a direction that me as a new player make things fun. But I also enjoy the BGs.

It seems the whole idea for taking away the last BG is to make others go into the frontiers, and to also give them incentives in those frontiers so they don't just quit all together. I think this is a good idea. I have already dabbled in emain as a 44+ toon with guildmates and friends. The first time out there was definately a shock to the system, but I am gradually getting use to it. To be able to get a group together to xp and maybe encounter some rvr would be fun and allow me and others to have a better learning curve, even if it means getting wiped out, because that is the challenge of it all. It makes you adapt the style you play for where you are in anticipation of what is to come.

However, why does this mean you need to get rid of thid? People like me who want to learn how to rvr will take advantage of the above situation, but without thid, there will still be those who will just stop at the last bg available. Why does this have to be taken away? Plus I would still like the option to go to thid and get some RPs. It already takes a good amount of time to get through thid, if the only way to get RPs at all is to venture into the frontiers and hope to take out a group that is at your level, it will take forever to get to 4L0. If you keep thid around, it benefits the new people to have a bit easier access to RPs, it lets veterans who want to streamline to 4L2 a viable option, and provides an arena for those who never want to do end RvR. But there is still the carrot dangling out there for those who dare to xp/rvr in the frontiers. It would just have to be a little bit faster xp option than staying in the home lands, and maybe better loot. If you want to make incentives, you can't then force people to take those, you have to let them choose. By keepin the BGs all the way through but then still having the better xp option, I think that is at least worth a shot. That's my two cents.

BobtheSkelly wrote:However, why does this mean you need to get rid of thid? People like me who want to learn how to rvr will take advantage of the above situation, but without thid, there will still be those who will just stop at the last bg available. Why does this have to be taken away? Plus I would still like the option to go to thid and get some RPs. It already takes a good amount of time to get through thid, if the only way to get RPs at all is to venture into the frontiers and hope to take out a group that is at your level, it will take forever to get to 4L0. If you keep thid around, it benefits the new people to have a bit easier access to RPs, it lets veterans who want to streamline to 4L2 a viable option, and provides an arena for those who never want to do end RvR. But there is still the carrot dangling out there for those who dare to xp/rvr in the frontiers. It would just have to be a little bit faster xp option than staying in the home lands, and maybe better loot. If you want to make incentives, you can't then force people to take those, you have to let them choose. By keepin the BGs all the way through but then still having the better xp option, I think that is at least worth a shot. That's my two cents.

Keep in mind that the removal of Thid would stand on itself. There would be BGs from level 15 to 44 instead of the current implementation where we have viable BG action from lvl 27+ to 49. Overall, the BGs would actually get improved.

The problem is not getting RR to enter end RvR, it is getting RR IN end RvR. You will notice that once you hit level 50 and end RvR is your only choice left...

Zarkor wrote:

BobtheSkelly wrote:However, why does this mean you need to get rid of thid? People like me who want to learn how to rvr will take advantage of the above situation, but without thid, there will still be those who will just stop at the last bg available. Why does this have to be taken away? Plus I would still like the option to go to thid and get some RPs. It already takes a good amount of time to get through thid, if the only way to get RPs at all is to venture into the frontiers and hope to take out a group that is at your level, it will take forever to get to 4L0. If you keep thid around, it benefits the new people to have a bit easier access to RPs, it lets veterans who want to streamline to 4L2 a viable option, and provides an arena for those who never want to do end RvR. But there is still the carrot dangling out there for those who dare to xp/rvr in the frontiers. It would just have to be a little bit faster xp option than staying in the home lands, and maybe better loot. If you want to make incentives, you can't then force people to take those, you have to let them choose. By keepin the BGs all the way through but then still having the better xp option, I think that is at least worth a shot. That's my two cents.

Keep in mind that the removal of Thid would stand on itself. There would be BGs from level 15 to 44 instead of the current implementation where we have viable BG action from lvl 27+ to 49. Overall, the BGs would actually get improved.

The problem is not getting RR to enter end RvR, it is getting RR IN end RvR. You will notice that once you hit level 50 and end RvR is your only choice left...

I'm a little confused... so by taking out thid completely, all of a sudden people are going to say "wow I have to end RvR now that there is no BG left, that is so different when thid was here." and just go RvR with still no experience as to how to end RvR? That is still a hard cut-off to begin end RvR, which is just moving it from lvl 50 to lvl 44. If thid is still around, then players lvl 44-49 have a chance to transition more slowly with gradual introduction to the frontiers and will hopefully have a better idea by the time they hit 50. Like you said, all you need is the incentive to choose to go out there and get a benefit from it (higher xp, items, whatever.) and the side effect is learning how to play in the RvR areas. I thought the whole idea was to get people to transition to end RvR and not quit or reroll? Speaking as a noob... I would most likely quit if thid was gone and only end RvR was left to try to compete against others because all PvE is is a way to get to RvR.

BobtheSkelly wrote:I'm a little confused... so by taking out thid completely, all of a sudden people are going to say "wow I have to end RvR now that there is no BG left, that is so different when thid was here." and just go RvR with still no experience as to how to end RvR? That is still a hard cut-off to begin end RvR, which is just moving it from lvl 50 to lvl 44. If thid is still around, then players lvl 44-49 have a chance to transition more slowly with gradual introduction to the frontiers and will hopefully have a better idea by the time they hit 50. Like you said, all you need is the incentive to choose to go out there and get a benefit from it (higher xp, items, whatever.) and the side effect is learning how to play in the RvR areas. I thought the whole idea was to get people to transition to end RvR and not quit or reroll? Speaking as a noob... I would most likely quit if thid was gone and only end RvR was left to try to compete against others because all PvE is is a way to get to RvR.

I agree that this is confusing on first sight, so I'll try to explain why it is in fact more gradual and bearable without Thidranki or any 45-49 BG for that matter. With the removal of the latest BG AND an increase in XP per RvR kill in the frontier zones, there will be an incentive for players under level 50 to not only roam the frontiers for PvE, but also to RvR, as a way of gaining double character progression, in both RP as XP. On top of that, the incoming changes will improve the PvE opportunities in OF, which again creates another fresh influx of players under level 50. These 2 groups of non-50 players, both RvR and PvE minded, provide a fairly steady and reliable amount of casual RvR possibilities within the frontiers, since they are not expected to be as optimised for RvR as the current RvR population is. This fact, that they are not expected to be as optimised as they are now, also makes for easier access into RvR groups for everyone. It makes for a more BG-like group formation to those that are willing to join such groups, rather than a group formation which is dictated by the already end-RvR established players as we see now.

This is where the players who leave the last BG (at 45) have the choice to do one of the following; A) join an "XP through RvR" group similar to the BGs (yes, even if consisting of lower level players, these groups will provide group RvR opportunities to anyone). B) join an "XP through PvE" group in the frontiers (or mainlands/DF for that matter) and prioritise character progression and optimisation over direct RvR. This way, players that feel like they are not yet strong enough to fully participate in end-RvR can hold back on it, without being forced to give up on improving their character compared to (at least a certain part of) their enemies. Once they do hit for instance level 50 and feel ready to take on end RvR after all, they will have the upper hand over at least 2 groups of enemies (The XPers and the brave ones who prefer to RvR to level 50 rather than to PvE.) AND have an easy time finding a group. Even though all other enemies will still be stronger than them, the certainty of having those 2 groups as possible prey for them to fall back on and good chances of finding a group to keep improving their RR will keep them going, because they know that even if they lose to a high RR enemy when they go out the first time, they have as good of a chance to kill low level/RR enemies themselves the second time, effectively making them stronger each time they succeed. This gives them the much needed motivation and confidence to proceed at participating in end RvR and thus improving their skills and character by doing so.


Compare that to our current situation, where Thidranki is as good of a BG as any, which offers little to no relation to end RvR other than a slightly larger resemblance in just character abilties. Groups are still as easy to get as they were in Wilton and Braemar, which makes enemies still as easy to kill as Wilton or Braemar and the RP gain is still as fast as it was back in the former BGs. Thidranki offers no real benefits towards end RvR to those that really need it. End RvR as we know it now is an unforgiving place where one has to work themselves into a whole new way of grouping, a whole new skill level of RvR, where mistakes that are regularly made in BGs get laughed at and where it is near impossible to enjoy smallman RvR as it was in BGs if you are not a stealther (and even then...). Emain dictates the group size and if are not able to follow you can pretty much seek some other activity or prepare to type /rel over and over. It is very common that one goes from 50-80k last week RPs (check herald) until capping Thidranki, then drop below 30k if even that after entering end RvR.

On top of that, Thidranki is the end of the line. From there on you are only able to do end RvR as it is presented to you. You can not in any way improve your character any further than the enemies you are facing besides by gaining RR, which is only done by trying to face them one way or the other. There are no easier targets and xpers are hardly found. EVEN IF there would be more xpers into the frontiers, but Thidranki would still be in place, these XPers will simply be claimed by the current end RvR population, which will still dominate new players since they still have a hard time finding a group. XPers alone will improve the situation slightly, but not fundamentally because they do not deal with the problem of groupability for newer players in end RvR.

Groupability is vital to a gradual approach to end-RvR. That is why these changes are crucial to improving the end RvR experience for new players and thus eventually for all of us.


I hope I clarified why not having Thid would be an improvement.

You know what 44+ in NF means? It means I start a new toon once I get 45. I can't get a PL to 50, and if the best XP spots are in NF, where I'll just get rolled all day, then screw this game (hypothetically).

BG's get people to 50, and with a skill/RP-set that allows them to compete. Competition is fun. Praying you don't get ganked by RR9's while you level is not fun.

scythe111 wrote:You know what 44+ in NF means? It means I start a new toon once I get 45. I can't get a PL to 50, and if the best XP spots are in NF, where I'll just get rolled all day, then screw this game (hypothetically).

BG's get people to 50, and with a skill/RP-set that allows them to compete. Competition is fun. Praying you don't get ganked by RR9's while you level is not fun.

Oh then I must be blind. I RvR regularly but surely I must somehow miss the constant influx of new, motivated and satisfied players out of Thidranki in daily RvR. Nobody is avoiding end RvR in our current setup then I guess, not at all, everything is working splendidly!

Wake up, what you are describing is what is happening now, it basicly can't get much worse. Stop acting like the last BG is helping end RvR to be more attractive to new players, it's only making it worse since they can barely find groups.

scythe111 wrote:You know what 44+ in NF means? It means I start a new toon once I get 45. I can't get a PL to 50, and if the best XP spots are in NF, where I'll just get rolled all day, then screw this game (hypothetically).

There's also monsters everywhere that you can kill for experience. Every realm has an endgame zone full of monsters that lvl 49 groups can cap xp on no problem. Tbh the only reason why I'd get the final levels in thidranki is -because I could-, as an option, combine something I like with something I hate. If not then just endure something you hate for a few more levels.

scythe111 wrote:BG's get people to 50, and with a skill/RP-set that allows them to compete. Competition is fun. Praying you don't get ganked by RR9's while you level is not fun.

There's still rr10+ people on uthgard who play their characters like newbies, what makes you think getting 4l2 by killing outnumbered/outgeared opponents (which is mostly what bg rvr is about) somehow gives someone the skill to compete in endgame rvr ? True being extremely low rr can suck, but any decent group can carry a low rr character if the player behind it is decent as well, making the "need" to be 4l2 void. Higher realmrank makes some things easier but it certainly doesn't make a player better by default.

Nerfing or removing bgs, adding mobs etc. won't make people join/leave endgame rvr if they don't want to now. They choose to participate in endgame rvr because of endgame rvr not because of battlegrounds, frontier monsters or whatnot.

Disdain wrote:Nerfing or removing bgs, adding mobs etc. won't make people join/leave endgame rvr if they don't want to now. They choose to participate in endgame rvr because of endgame rvr not because of battlegrounds, frontier monsters or whatnot.

BGs, xpers and general frontier zone activity ARE endgame RvR. They are what make or break endgame RvR. That is why fixing end RvR is done through adjusting those factors.

Having nothing but the current form of endRVR is what is putting off players from joining that. There is only a handful of playstyles available to those who manage to fit in. Our current endRvR is so narrowed down that only the people that have already settled themselves in endRvR can have somewhat consistent satisfaction by participating in it. Anyone who's not either a stealther or settled in the community will get annoyed each time he/she A) can't solo (90% of the time) or B) can't find a grp to counter the enemies (happens more often than not as well).

Adjusting BGs and PvE attractiveness to end RvR will in turn improve RvR attractivesness due to better groupability and casual RvR potential. The new players that will RvR in such a situation are not the players that would do end RvR now because the current form of end RvR just doesn't provide that kind of action.

I still don't understand how killing monsters is rvr just because it's in the frontiers.