I was hoping to find the answer to this in the other thread, but it quickly turned into a flame war, so the most direct answer would be great.

Since assassins are getting see hidden now, does that mean that they will be able to always see scouts/hunters/rangers no matter how much stealth they have?

As for true sight, is it basically an active 1 minute see hidden skills that shows all stealthers or is it different in any way?

if the answer to both of these is yes, does that mean that from now on, most archers, especially hunters and scouts, will be totally at disadvantage since most assassins will be able to easily sneak up and surprise them?

also, where does that leave us with stealther war? what will be the possible outcome? some people suggested that NS will be basically dominating the server now. yes/no and why?

thanks

Yes, See Hidden detects all stealthers (not assassins) who does not have Camoflague up, within clipping range.

True Sight is a 1min version of this, with a 30 minute cooldown.

And yes, Archers will be in a big disadvantage in the stealth war. Make sure you got Camoflague up when you roam, and you'll be somewhat fine.

Dominating is a harsh choice of words. In DAoC there were always classes favored in certain situations. Archers will have a harder time with Old RAs, yes. But I don't know if NSs will "dominate". I doubt it tho.

Personally I can not see any RAs that will make my NS uber, relying on a 30 minute reuse timer active RA is not something I would like to do.

and saying that someone is uber and going to be FOTM because of a 30 minute reuse timer RA, is to me a joke..

True Sight Active 30 min. Detect all hidden characters for 60 seconds.

See Hidden Passive Automatically detect stealthed characters that don't have the "Detect Hidden" ability: Scouts, Hunters, Rangers, and Minstrels.

According to this Old RA List.

<img alt="undefined" title="" src="http://www.die-webas.de/daoc/sig.php?chars=qeo;Rodgrodog;Scirious;Fearegrim;Vobaldt;Thuardo">

I dont think see hidden is clipping range after 1.62, as they stat it was nerfed by like half in most cases. Hopefuly they will find a reasonable distance, as 30min reuse for clip range for TS, shouldnt be the same as a passive see hidden, which is in use all times, exept when camo is up. Does anyone know the range on see hidden, after 1.62 changes ? Site, Docs, or other info would be nice, then guesses from assasins.

so does camouflage negate see hidden completely? as long as you have it up, only stealth level will determine whether you get caught or not?

One comment to the see hidden ability from the old days:

See Hidden: My experience with this realm ability is mostly prenerf and pre-camoflage, for that matter. It was great back then, however Mythic has put a nerf on this realm ability in the form of it only sees 1/4 to 3/4 of the clipping range, depending on your opponents level of stealth compared to yours. Most NS's have dropped this ability, however a few still swear by it.

Source: http://daoc2.catacombs.com/forum.cfm?Th ... 6&forum=31

And a note to See Hidden often forgotten. Nowadays it counters Detect Hidden (what else, see hidden is gone).

Back in the days, even after the see hidden nerf, camouflage countered only See Hidden, not detect hidden! The 1.52 Patch Notes read:

NEW ARCHER ABILITY - CAMOUFLAGE

A new ability for Archers has been added - that of Camouflage. The purpose of Camouflage is for the Archer to be able to move about unseen, but not be able to use it to engage in stealthed combat. We want archers to be able to perform their scouting duties, but not become the overpowering solo killers that they once were.

Camouflage is awarded to all Scouts, Hunters, and Rangers at level 30. You use it just like any other ability - first, you must be hidden (via your normal stealth icon). Then, drag the Camouflage icon to your quickbar and click on it to activate the ability. When you are Camouflaged, essentially you are invisible from the assassin See Hidden ability - however, you abide by all the rules of being stealthed normally; i.e. you have a greater chance of being visible to those that are higher level than yourself.

When you are a camouflaged, you abide by all the rules of stealth. You will move at your normal stealthed speed, and you will become visible if you engage in combat (take damage, attack someone, shoot someone with a bow, etc.). Please note that you can Camouflage any time ten minutes after your last attack. This makes Camouflage useful to scout around unseen, but it will not help you in combat, since you will not be able to use the skill for 10 minutes after you attack someone else.

Source: http://support.darkageofcamelot.com/kb/ ... php?id=423

Consequence: With old RAs, having Camo ON will be the same as having Camo OFF nowadays. That means detect hidden will work, but not see hidden. Having Camo OFF vs. an Assassin with See Hidden will mean what Hjalmar described as "sees 1/4 to 3/4 of the clipping range, depending on your opponents level of stealth compared to yours".

Sorry, Rangers and Hunters, but opening on assassins with side/backstun in melee was never the game with old RAs (if the assassin had at least average reaction time and wasnt AFK ^^).

ShadowBlade TL report 1.62
http://vnboards.ign.com/daoc_tl_reports ... 734955/p1/
* See hidden - the new see hidden range has had mixed results. Feedback has indicated many simply dropped the RA.

Nightshade TL Report 1.62
http://vnboards.ign.com/daoc_tl_reports ... 3691/p1/?1
* See Hidden fix: The change to See Hidden has brought it into balance, and while some disgruntled nightshades are out to “gut” True Sight, I believe these two abilities are now balanced.

Before this patch it was talked about , that it allowed them to see archers at clipping range .... Clipping ranger on old clients, not the newer clipping range on the newer client. But after 1.62, both report it was balanced/nerfed so that they may drop it. I hope the staff will consider that and have actual idea of how all this suppose to work, after all the stealth balancing that had gone on back then. Or else stealth wars is going to have many issues.

Eclipsed wrote:I hope the staff will consider that and have actual idea of how all this suppose to work, after all the stealth balancing that had gone on back then. Or else stealth wars is going to have many issues.

True Sight and See Hidden do not balance each other. I hope the staff (and the player-base) will understand this. You can not put an ability on a 30 minute timer and call it a 'counter' to a passive ability. This is not good gameplay.

The combination of True Sight and See Hidden will not only effect the stealth war. Think of what will happen in Darkness Falls. DF will become infested with assassins farming lowbies and the only way to clean them out will be with True Sight. But as soon as the assassins know there is a True Sight archer active in DF they will only need to log out for 60 seconds to defeat the archer's True Sight. Then when they log back in they can go back to farming easy RPs. They can even find and kill the archer that used True Sight.

This is a terrible system for stealth.

Clipping range was ~3000, so even 1/4 of that, 750 units, would make this RA useful to assassins. That would be in line with current MoS5 for archers implementation, so I guess no archer can call this out of balance. Especially since SH could be countered with Camo, which MoS5 can not.

Hjalmars guess (which was part of his guide, see link above) that I quoted earlier of "1/4 to 3/4 of the clipping range" would be my guess from that times also, with would be like 750 units for archers with capped stealth and ~1000-1500 units for minstrels with stealth of 25+X like it was not uncommon that days.

But then, I have no "proof" and it"s been a really long time.

so SH is on 750range but on what range will TS be on? Also on the same range or on a higher range due being a 30min active realm abilitie?

If its the full range there still is somewhat of way for archers to make decent RP, but on 750 range this may be even an additional blow in the face making archers nothing more then a 30min amg stealther sweeper with fg added.

I remember by mythic classes description that an archer can't detect "Hidden".

But archers are basically useless classes, they can't be grped, they aren't assassins so they can't have a primary role on stealth war, their first targets should be "Casters and other archers" as i remember by the class description (on the old web site).

See hidden is a basic ability for assassins which make their styles on position (and they are the primary class in the stealth war).

The natural targets of an assassin (according to class description) are archers, casters.

If an archer can spot me (assassin) by range (with huge amount of dmg), and i can't make my ability (critical strike), is it fair and balance? MOS range has been reduced some patches ago, when i had noticed it nobody has spoken about "balance", now all the rangers are tolking about balancing lol.

PLS, we were sucking a lot by the beginning of this server, now it's your turn, all the rangers are pretty high rr (easily done), try to use this advantage to take right ras in the future.

Holavez

Cyan if you made that post in reply to my question then I must dissapoint you. I have and never will play Hib, Middie in hard and soul.

But indeed rangers are somewhat QQ'ing to much now in comparision to hunters they had at least period they could get decent RR, hunters seems doomed for ever ... :s (well at least till bow gets fixed)

Full range TS with 5 hunters (5min's till next TS after activate) leading into AMG attack by hunters with critshot9 + Falcon's Eye into some success

arnius wrote:so SH is on 750range but on what range will TS be on? Also on the same range or on a higher range due being a 30min active realm abilitie?

If its the full range there still is somewhat of way for archers to make decent RP, but on 750 range this may be even an additional blow in the face making archers nothing more then a 30min amg stealther sweeper with fg added.

Well, I can tell a bit about my days in OF, old RA Emain.

As i said SH was ~750 on vs. cap stealth archers, on minstrels anywhere from 750 to 1500+, depending on wether they were group specced or solo specced.

At Emain AMG this gave a slight advantages for assassins over archers when they occationally met there, and a COMPLETE PURGE of AMG stealthers every ~10 min odd when a new group of stealthers with TS up (or alternatively a regular FG with TS bot) inced AMG. The advantage of assassins was of course smaller when Camo was up, since detect hidden only gave a bonus of like 150-200 units (like now when camo is down) compared to 750 for see hidden. Overall, assassins and archers got similar amount of RP.

Interestingly though, it was better suited for solo stealth RvR, since you don't waste a 30min RUT RA on a random place, but spare it for "hot spots" like AMG or MMG Emain (or any place you know a stealther has been camping for a while).

And this is the reason why I'm looking forward to old RAs for stealthers. It encourages solo and/or roaming stealth RvR, and discourages camping on Hotspots. Camping and Zerging will be 'punished' with the next inc using TS at the very place.

But to be fair, this doen't solve stealth zerg "problem" (as I call it) completely. A group with multiple archers can take advantage by more frequent use of TS, but unlike now they can be 'found' if they keep on zerging on one spot, since it makes it worth using TS there.

nixian wrote:Personally I can not see any RAs that will make my NS uber, relying on a 30 minute reuse timer active RA is not something I would like to do.

and saying that someone is uber and going to be FOTM because of a 30 minute reuse timer RA, is to me a joke..

How about these?
WA3 or 4, its a passive ability btw
or
AP3 15minutes cooldown and making a NS into a pd5 ranger

Still dont think a NS will dominate stealth wars? U better think again