Galno wrote:There is alot to learn, and we can improve on the Method I agree totally.

Well then let me tell you you're doing it completely wrong. A 3FG zerg isn't going to be sustaining any form of RvR with the current (and near future) RvR activity. It will make more players log out than join in.

A better idea would be to form a low RR 12-16 slot and roam the 8v8 landscape with that. You will stand a chance, but so will the FGs. This way you combine both worlds instead of destroying one for the other, leading into MORE players, rather than close to less.

Starting a zerg with 2FG mid/high RR grps is only going to harm RvR. If you want to outnumber your enemy so badly, go siege something.

Galno wrote:Yet this 'natural' Way of fresh Blood in RvR isn't happening, and the so-called solutions went to: Let the Dev's solve it all please.
That's just a joke.

What? You believe the setting is perfectly fine and my hours of effort to analyse and synthetise the problem and solutions, which have eventually been accepted and acknowledged by the staff, which is now resulting in them working to fix the issue is ..."a joke"? Basicly, you believe staff's word is "a joke"? Way to go dude, seriously, no faith in the staff at all will help us get there for sure...

But I honestly don't believe you think that because hey, you ALSO believe there's a problem right? Otherwise you wouldn't be zerging Emain.. I hope.

Galno wrote:It has to get started to evolve, and started it has been now, and hopefully will continue to evolve.

Yes, it has to start somewhere, but not by DEvolving another playstyle. NEVER.

Let me just explain how it would evolve. (Oh and by the way don't use the word evolve, the way you are trying to do things you should use the word "enforce")

1. The core of casual RvR starts to evolve due to a serious decrease in RvR standard and therefore a serious increase in end RvR attractiveness for casual players. (setting change due to staff's fixes) Smallman/duo/solo RvR start flourishing outside of Emain.
2. Casual RvR will exist and attract even more players to end RvR permanently. This creates a selfsustaining option on casual RvR without harming the already established Emain RvR.
3. Mainly on primetime will casual smallman RvR grps (existing of low RR sometimes not even lvl 50 players) will decide to take it to the next level and head out to Emain. They will realise they can't compete with just 8, so they build a 2FG casual train.

And voila, you have both long-term self sustaining casual RvR aswell as casual players in Emain WITHOUT destroying the usual Emain action for that.


YOU CAN NOT EXPECT QUALITY CASUAL RVR TO ORIGINATE FROM WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW. STOP ACTING LIKE YOU CAN, YOU CAN'T!!!

Galno wrote:But really that : Oh but the other Zones are empty we would need to search for those other 8on8.
That can easily translated to: Our 8on8 is really only great fun if we get those pugs to roll over for free rp to feel great.
The true Reason for alot of the Flaming here I think ..

Stop acting like you know how people think when you haven't got the slightest clue. The real 8v8 players DO NOT KILL solos/duos that don't add or are known not to add. The real 8v8 players DO NOT ADD on fair fights. The only ones that do are the wannabes that now claim to be the saviours of casual end RvR, while in fact were the ones that made casual end RvR so damn impossible. They were the ones without honor, they were the ones that don't care whether they have to chase that soloer all over Breifine just to get 250 rps. NOT the real 8v8 players.

Nobody is going to stop playing end RvR because people shout at them for being an adder, which is what 8v8 players would do at most. What would they care? The reason people stop end RvR is because they DONT STAND A CHANCE. Getting chainrolled by a FG ...or a Zerg is NOT FUN.

What you are doing now is similar to the current situation, the only difference is that former casual RvR is now 8v8 RvR and former 8v8 is now the Zerg. FGs are now the ones getting kicked out of the only zone with action. FGs are now the ones that have to use third party (forbidden) tools to organise their fun in end RvR.

And last but not least, if this keeps up, just like the organised solo casual RvR, organised FG RvR will fail because it's not fun anymore due to a lack of players in the end.

Sahand wrote:Dumb discussion and most posts are full of bullshit.

A statement without just a single argument in a discussion . wow.

Sahand wrote:You wanna provoke a zerg? Go use IRC noone cares anyway!

too bad its more the casual players that would join end game RvR in zerg fights
and too bad casual players are not on IRC

the only thing you can provoke on IRC with the topic "zerg" is flames....

holsten-knight wrote:.... and you will have to take everyone who wants to join (or you loose your credibility as zergleader), so you can't always choose with how many you start the zerg.

true ,..
and i think thats a problem combined with the population differences

which causes this:

Force wrote:Which is what basically always happens once it becomes zerg only. At least half the group loses interest in trying to build 32 slot, and the group breaks. Emain empties. The zerg wins the game?

@ hedra, stop caring about what happens in emain when you leave it I started not caring about the 1v1, 8v8, rvr, in Emain as soon as i moved to OG on my NS..

and tbh I think the casuals will be happy.. only pugs = easier grps to kill = they have a chance

let emain be the training / zerging ground and move elsewhere and don't bother caring about how the action is there.. so what if emain dies? that will just force those who wants 8v8 to move to odins/hadrians..

and with emain empty it will be a good spot for smallmans/solos which eventually will lead to pugs which will lead to zergs.. which will make the casuals happy..

so I don't see a problem with emain becoming "empty" because I know it wont be.. it will after some time be filled with casuals..

Rofl nixian did u even read what I said?

Casuals are forced to Odins now where even a trio gets hated. Sounds like an awesome solution if you ask me.


There's absolutely no reason to do this, you won't fix the situation this way...

Zarkor wrote:YOU CAN NOT EXPECT QUALITY CASUAL RVR TO ORIGINATE FROM WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW. STOP ACTING LIKE YOU CAN, YOU CAN'T!!!

For sure it can work this way, it's the way it worked on live servers. And i believe we have enough people playing here to make it work. Your method might work as well, but i promise it will work either way

What you think the 8-slot grps will do when getting zerged day by day in the long run? Quit playing daoc or rvr?

they are the most addicted sort of players, they would never do that

So they will use theyr brains (which might take some weeks, or maybe even months as it did on live) and come to the conclusion to either join the zerging, build a zerg of theyr own or leave emain for other zones.

From then on it might be the zerg follows the 8-slot grps to the other zones, as the predator always follows the prey.
The 8-slot will for sure come emain to hunt down some pug-grps, all zones populated or not, everything or nothing can happen anywhere... but the population in endgame rvr will increase by large numbers.

Edit: and i hope the staff keeps on working to implement your great suggestions zarkor... both methods combined will definatly lead to great endgame rvr here

So because you (as a zerger) don't like one perticular playstyle, you wouldn't mind destroying it for weeks or even months just to enforce another playstyle onto others?

That's not a single bit better than what we have now. In fact, it's even worse. 8v8 NEVER intentionally destroyed any type of playstyle.


You are deliberatly destroying people's ONLY option on that kind of playstyle on Uthgard with the excuse of promising a better future for everyone, which is in fact highly doubtful.




If you guys seriously think destroying A to get B is the way to reach a solution that requires both A, B AND C, then sure, by all means stop using the braincells you have left and continue. If you finally realise this isn't how we we will come to a REAL solution, then by all means cut the crap and start running 12slots of mid-low RR instead of 24 slots of high-mid RR if giving casual players a chance in Emain is what you want.


Like I said nobody minds 12-16 slot grp combined out of casual players. Sure they will get their kills, sure people will be able to avoid or even have a good fight with them, and on top of that they don't destroy RvR for anyone. Isn't that a better idea than "let's make the enemy release so many times without standing a chance untill he logs out"?

hey hey hey, i am deeply involved in the 8vs8 rvr... it is what i like most, and what i do 90% of my playtime. You can hear me swear in TS every time we get zerged about lame zergers... on the other hand i enjoy seeing zergs here after all, and would never try to convince them to stop theyr playstile.

we did run with more than 8 just once in the last 4-5 months, unless we got zerged at least 3 times. Then we counterzerged and that was just in the last week.

But i also like zerging sometimes and would like zergfights as well as 8vs8 here on uthgard, i like any kind of rvr in daoc.

And yes, i believe it will work this way... the way of the brechstange (crowbar)
It worked on every server i played so far.
Because there is no other way to change peoples mind.
asking the gank grps "Could you please stop ganking low rr grps and let them have theyr pug grp fights?" simply does not work

And how long it takes for the 8vs8 to recover and become fun again just depends on the time the 8vs8 community needs to stop complaining and blaming and starts using theyr minds for a solution.

And btw. yesterday was some nice 8vs8 day... we had lots of nice 8vs8 fights, a lot of fights with add, and some few fights with zergs. All in all a nice day.

holsten-knight wrote:It worked on every server i played so far.

Well that's awesome for you but THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING AT ALL ON UTHGARD.

None of those servers had OF with Uthgard's setting. None. ZERO. So stop generalising things to make it look like it will work while in fact you haven't got the slightest clue!

You haven't even took the effort to think the issue through!

holsten-knight wrote:Because there is no other way to change peoples mind.

Pure Bullshit. If you have a brain, start reading and try to comprehend how it will change peoples mind. It will DEFINATELY have a superior and longer lasting effect than a random zerg here and there. Again stop spewing bullshit dude it's damn annoying.

holsten-knight wrote:And how long it takes for the 8vs8 to recover and become fun again just depends on the time the 8vs8 community needs to stop complaining and blaming and starts using theyr minds for a solution.

You really don't see anything wrong with DESTROYING what is currently working for the sake of a half-assed so called solution that you don't even know will work?

Wake up...




Oh and it's not the skilled players' fault that the lesser skilled or low RR players don't have the guts or braincells to admit they need more players to beat a superior enemy.

You really don't see anything wrong with DESTROYING what is currently working for the sake of a half-assed so called solution that you don't even know will work?

Wake up...

*******************************

sorry zarkor but i dont share your opinion. in my view the constant complains that 8mens did (and some still do) that turned away so many casuals from rvr is what destroyed alot fun. what you call working in my view is only working for a minority while the mass of players are supressed.

if a political system (as example a dictator removal) is changing there are allways the defenders. the defenders are those that did benefit from the old status while those calling for a change are not longer willing to tolerate their supression.

so yes, pls wake up.

catania wrote:sorry zarkor but i dont share your opinion. in my view the constant complains that 8mens did (and some still do) that turned away so many casuals from rvr is what destroyed alot fun. what you call working in my view is only working for a minority while the mass of players are supressed.

if a political system (as example a dictator removal) is changing there are allways the defenders. the defenders are those that did benefit from the old status while those calling for a change are not longer willing to tolerate their supression.

so yes, pls wake up.

As I have explained before 8v8 is not the cause of the situation, it's just making it harder to change without staff interferance.

Having zergs instead of 8mans is NOT going to solve any FUNDAMENTAL issues.


Therefore it's not worth destroying it imo.





Player's aren't suppressed, they just aren't interested in doing so much effort (which most of the 8v8 players DID do) for something they don't want that badly anyway (FG action). That's why they take the easy route out and go to BGs or PvE.

This results in a forced choice for new players: easy mode or effort. And this is caused by both players diverting themselves from end RvR aswell as players working for end RvR.

Stop acting like the 8v8 mentality is the only part to blame in this story. It's definately not, it's just what survived this mess the best...


No need to tell me to wake up lol, I was awake before most people even knew there was a problem at all.

catania wrote:sorry zarkor but i dont share your opinion. in my view the constant complains that 8mens did (and some still do) that turned away so many casuals from rvr is what destroyed alot fun. what you call working in my view is only working for a minority while the mass of players are supressed.

if a political system (as example a dictator removal) is changing there are allways the defenders. the defenders are those that did benefit from the old status while those calling for a change are not longer willing to tolerate their supression.

so yes, pls wake up.

I think neither Zarkor or any other active 8v8 player has any real issue with casuals zerging allover the place. ATM the zerg is just killing 8 mans that are there to do 8v8, not casuals at all. More xp spots / faster spawns / worthy keeps will do a better job of drawing out these so called casuals ( out of bg's but also out of df / pve ) than a hib zerg blocking of a milegate.

If we take your example, lets go for a coalition of playstyles rather than a new dictator imposing his rules upon the rvr active community of uthgard.

Player's aren't suppressed, they just aren't interested in doing so much effort ...

just a few memories from me...

- if you dont stop adding we log !
- wtf why did you attack our fight !
- sorry we dont group a void eld !
- thx for destroying my fun by adding !
- go back to BG you noob !
- no action in emain ppls rather level twinks then rvr.
- healer skald duo farming the horseroute after they got killed by a fg they ran into: from now on we (his guild) hardcore add on all your fights. well they have no problem farming solo's from a horse (in my view fair game) but complain if they get killed by a FG (fair game aswell)

the 8mens did and still try to surpess anyone and anything that might change their leading situation.

in my think there was never more action in rvr than in the past 2 months, maybe somone can prove it with server numbers? total RP's as example ?

every 8-slot grp has to find theyr own solution of course.

For us it is if we get constantly zerged we try to build a counter zerg, if that doesn't work we try to avoid the zerg, if that doesn't work we go og, if not enough action there we open df.

on very rare occasions nothing of this works and the day is crap, but i have no problem with that. Another day another try.

If you do not like to run more then 8-slot you still have 3 opportunities left, one should work most of the time.

I really see no "destroying the 8-slot playstile" by zerging in one zone known for zergs and adds as long as daoc exists

The problem with uthgard is that most of it's players are players who quit live early, still stuck with the year 2003 mentality and enforce it en mass onto modern rvr (adding everywhere, 3 ways, one realm zerging others, stealther zergs etc.). On live players learned to respect each other because they realised over time that that kinda gameplay didn't benefit anyone.

A good example of being stuck in year 2003 mentality:

holsten-knight wrote:I really see no "destroying the 8-slot playstile" by zerging in one zone known for zergs and adds as long as daoc exists

Daoc exists to date, OF emain existed until mid 2004.