Yep, you're right.

Anyway, I think that many casual would like to play with decent players who are usual ones.
But, most of the time usual don't want to because of as I said a lack of skill, and so casual players can only group with other casuals.

As you know a PUG of casual is just a running free rp group ^^

So what can they do ? -> Zerg ... :p

Finally, I think it is just about skill.

Skilled ones don't like to play with unskilled which is dividing the population and force casual to play in way which usual hate (= Zerg)


Which is clearily leading to the fact that most of casual are looking for easy PvP like in BG and not Hard PvP like 8v8 in Emain.



I note precise, that when I tell Casual I mean most of them, casual are not all unskilled, like usual ones are not all good players

Eclipsed wrote:other wise i dont know how full OF would work out, since i believe it has real design issues.

Looks like you didn't read my post. OF is indeed huge, but we have the player numbers to populate it properly. Just not with how things are currently and that is what most people find too hard to think of: situations that differ a lot from Uthgard.
Making OF smaller is a possible way of improving things, but will not solve the core of the problem, which is the game setting more than anything. Map layout is only a part of the problem and no problem at all if the Alb and Mid frontiers also manage to generate activity.

Nymeros wrote:

Ithiggi wrote:Doing what your solutions state would drive casual players away imo.

This.

You 2 could not have been more wrong.

Sure, determined BG players will stay in the BGs, but that harm is already done by personal preferance, which as I said is not changable. The worst that can happen is that players who currently swear by BGs will just go play lower BGs. Nobody will driven away by this change, rather the opposite. More and more players are CURRENTLY being driven away by the way it is now.

The key to this change is that it would give you the choice whether or not to go to BGs for casual RvR instead of forcing you to BGs for casual RvR because there is no other option, which is currently the case.

Force wrote:I disagree with the RP bonus, especially nothing near X10, a GG of lvl 40s that play well can roll PUG 8 mans of level 50s, or small mans of lvl 50s. You give them X10 and youll see ridiculous RPS per hour. I could see maybe +20~%.

I'm sorry, this one's my bad for not making it clearer. I meant having an XP bonus for RvR kills like we currently have now (x10), but an increase for that in the OF zones to make OF more attractive to progress XP wise. It is ment to provide the possiblity to level through killing enemy players in OF, not to get high RR fast in any way.
An RP bonus is just not necessary and will only harm action wherever there is no such bonus.

Force wrote:I believe if players are incentivised enough to make OF the premier leveling area, casual RvR would not be harmed in the slightest. With 3 frontiers to PvE in, you would be able to go out and find some killer XP areas. I'd say that +50-100% exp and near instant respawn rates would do the trick. Maybe even a bit higher since campfires are disabled. 2X cap XP with insta respawn would probably be incentive enough though. Another way to incentivise would be to give every mobs above lvl 45 or 50 or something a 1% chance to drop some loot that most people would like, for instance some kind of recharge gem. That might even bring people who normally wouldn't be PvEing into the frontiers to do just that.

This is exactly the idea: populate OF with as many players as possible with whatever goal. This will automaticly create a viable setting for players with a specific casual RvR goal.

Thalien wrote:Another suggestion i could think of would be to make keep raids more attractive. Random people always tend to raid some stuff.

Also get a warmap or realm message so people actually can defend keeps.
Could help to get action in zones beside emain.

Siegeing always hasbeen part of casual rvr. Not saying this because i play the only realm where you can get some pbae together...

Another one who actually got it! ^^
This would indeed be a good suggestion since it draws more players in who are fond of siege warfare, which can be seen as a part of casual RvR. As said above: the more players in OF by providing more possibilities, the better the casual RvR will be supported.

Blackcougar wrote:plenty of chars id like to play, but not wanting to go 50 with them.

You are a casual RvR player, you got what's wrong with the current situation in general, but can't seem to read my post thoroughly enough to get the point. You always reply within your own mindtrain, I'm done with your shortsightedness untill you realise I'm trying to find a solution for your exact situation.

2 ideas.

1) Give 100% xp bonus to zones other that emain for a few days, see what comes out of it.

2) Do checks of the most underpopulated frontierzone every hour, give isntantport there. (so ppl will port there instead of emain if they missed the big port. For an example. Or casuals who cant be arsed with waiting for port for 8 mins then go out in emain and die as soon as they reach MG)
Can be broadcasted in the porterkeeps.

Artefact wrote:Yep, you're right.

Anyway, I think that many casual would like to play with decent players who are usual ones.
But, most of the time usual don't want to because of as I said a lack of skill, and so casual players can only group with other casuals.

As you know a PUG of casual is just a running free rp group ^^

So what can they do ? -> Zerg ... :p

Finally, I think it is just about skill.

Skilled ones don't like to play with unskilled which is dividing the population and force casual to play in way which usual hate (= Zerg)


Which is clearily leading to the fact that most of casual are looking for easy PvP like in BG and not Hard PvP like 8v8 in Emain.



I note precise, that when I tell Casual I mean most of them, casual are not all unskilled, like usual ones are not all good players

Continous zerging isn't because people are casual unskilled players, it's because they're lazy.

We're all human and we all started daoc at level 1. Almost a decade has passed since the game's existence, some people's gaming style evolved others' is still like it was 7 years ago. Why ? Because they're lazy. They don't care how they play they'll just follow others and see what happens. Hence the name "lemmings". Truth be told daoc, especially uthgard, doesn't get to see many new players either, most are people who already played it for a while.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand people who are new to the game and why they zerg. What ticks me off are people who play the game for years, still zerg (because they're lazy) and give "8 man leet players" attitudes like "zerging also requires skill and coordination" and "we're just as good as you, or even better because we're not elitist". It makes no sense.

A good example of a LAZY zerg is this. You can't have rr 7-10 group and call it casual, no! Unskilled... probably but definitely not casual so going around saying people zerg because they're casual players is simply wrong.

i read and despite what your thinking i DO understand what your saying and everyone f the last 5? topics you made about it is a more elaborate version of the inital request to scramble the bgs above preferable lvl 35 and FORCE the players who do not want to play lvl 50 rvr IN to lvl 50 rvr.

there are chars that are fun to play in a certain BG, but i would never play them to 50.
that is a fact and has nothing to do with OF, NF, RAs, population, Mentality, patchlevel or any other reason you can think of.

especially above 40, when the skillgain per level really starts to make a difference and make some classes exponentionally stronger then others given specific specs.
thats why i like some classes on 50, some on 49, some on 35, some on 43 and some on 24 (which is mute on uthgard).

and honestly, no matter how attractive you make the frontiers, even if you give ppl under RR5 30x rp per kill and ppl under lvl 50 30x ep per kill and quadrupple the money and BP gain for ever RR difference between you and the enemiey, it still wont make frontiers more fun then bgs - just more rewarding


i appreciate the effort you do and if your motion is implementend, good, maybe it works, maybe it wont.

it wont for me, thats what im saying.

i do 50 rvr if there is an opportunity, but i refuse to sit ready to go for hours or try to get a group going with an obvious lack of bards/druids - thats stress, not entertainment.

i think players should play the way they want to play within the servers rule set. Without any harassment from other players for interfering with there predefined rule set rules being broke.

This would get by far more people out than any bonus or radical change ever would.

just getting out and play and have fun knowing no one from your realm is going to complain. or x-realm to lodge a complaint.

Ok, you convinced me.

Anyway, I still think that Zerg is a part of the game, on live zerg was the way to RvR because of high population on OF.

For me, the fact that we can see zerg on uthgard is a good point because it a good aspect of what RvR should be, I don't like zerg because it's too boring, but it's a good point to estimate what the RvR population is.

In fact, the aim of the RvR is zerg, if there's no zerg there isn't really RvR.

So can we blame casual for zerging if it's a part of what RvR should be properly ?

Yes, it's release bad behaviour from part of the community, but it a way of playstyle, which can be benefit to the server.

(btw, I think I'm leading to offtopic, so I'll go back to Zarkor's Idea)

Increase RvR exp bonus could be a could idea, anyway Do you really think that a 45-49 grp which want to exp in RvR can have any chance versus a full 50 RR5+ grp ?
I don't think so, they could get exp and rps fighting a same level group, but where could they find it ... In emain a grp like that is just a free rp grp for real rvr grp.
It's a solution but I just think it's a little utopic

A good idea could be, to increase RR cap in Wilton so max 4L2 at the wilton lvl cap, deleting thidranki too, and then increase the exp rate in OF, so then from 42 to 50 you got time to get a real stuff, and then xp real fast by going in OF.

I think that a good to way to increase the RvR population should be a solution that help the players to be viable in RvR quickly but lead him to a real way of RvR Zerg/8man or keep war.
And not a quick RvR.
Note that a bad thing in real RvR is to waiting 3hours to make a grp for that, anyway by increasing the RvR population you clearely reduce that.

I prefere to see many pug in RvR and grouping with casual to have fun and rp than seeing only 8 man RR6+ only rolling my poor pug after 2hours of DL camping

That I think why people are so lazy sometimes and prefere to zerg or going BGs ^^

best way to xp from 40-50 is DF at the moment.. and when 1 highrr enemy grp comes in they can easily wipe all hulk/diamond farming grps and all the sapphire range ones and then camp the stairs until a 3-4-5fg zerg builds up..

would be the same in OF - bringing xpers into RvR zones won't benefit that much, highrr grps will roll them easy and will more than likely be routinely checking all the xp spots... just like any grp would if there were many XP spots in OF.

jalore wrote:i think players should play the way they want to play within the servers rule set. Without any harassment from other players for interfering with there predefined rule set rules being broke.

That's exactly how it is now. And the "player made ruleset" isn't too logical when you look at it really:

-8man players looking for some fun; inc another 8man.
-Adders do what they do best, add and quickly ruin our fun
-8man: ...
-Adder: it's not against the rules
-8man: sure but please don't add our fights
-Adder: you have to respect the way I choose to play
-8man: ... what about the way I choose to play ?
-Adder: f*ck you elitist I don't care go play counterstrike or wow if you want balance
-8man: ...

toblerone sums it pretty well

8man's get called elitist jerks for wanting balanced fights

my post wasn't aimed at 8v8 it was aimed at anyone with a ruleset that they feel needs to be enforced. And feels the need to flame the person who broke it.

Zarkor is right, nice post.

And this '8v8 elitest mentallity' is just stupid.

I play in this '8v8' game because I like playing with people I know, people who can actually communicate in game (not just in battle). We rarely invite 'casual' RvR players because we can usually fill that space with our of our friends (since their in our guild anyway, why would we invite a randomer over him?). However, we DO sometimes.

This is my definition of a 'skilled' player:

>Someone who can sometimes mez the other group first
>Someone who can most of the time, heal when they need to
>Someone who can mostly pick the right target:
and someone who can assist the assist leader
>Someone who is able to cast theurg pets on the right targets.
>Someone who can communicate with their group, and take notice of any kiting.

If all end RvR players were like this there would be no problem. It's not too much to ask. I don't see how somebody can go through 3 BG's and be still oblivious to what their char can actually do.

Also, as you said Zarkor, people will only go out if they have 8 players. We do too...because our enemies do...and they do because we do . This leads to emain being filled with 8man stealther groups or 8man (as you call them 'elitest' groups...) and there is nothing in the middle. There are no 4man groups, no duos and no soloers.

(btw, I never proof read my posts)

DarkRef wrote: and there is nothing in the middle. There are no 4man groups, no duos and no soloers.

there are, but all they do is add on fights and get killed by fg's...

but with the low frequency of the small man grps thats all they can really do.. not many fg's are gonna let a 4man live, just to be added on later by the same grp.

What about an unofficial 8v8 zone?

I know it has been suggested before, but it would remove this so called satan spawn from emain (namely, these 8v8 elitest guys -.-).

Would love OG to become 8v8 zone... even for just 1-2 days to see if people actually stick to it or if like i imagine certain people will just run 12/16 slot and just add on everything.