Now i tested the live ranger, same setup vs a Celt Blademaster with piercers. This was with the blademaster having same pierc spec, same cd spec, 40 parry and done unstyled as i explained before, BM didnt use flurry or triplewield, and BM does have spec for slam, but not used in test. So keep that all in mind. Here is what i got

Ranger
_______________________________
Str = 50 (62)
Dex/Qui = 72 (90)
AF = 80 (95)
DA = 9.4

Unbuffed Stats
AF = 553
WS = 931 (175 dmg stat)
HP = 1049

Buffed Stats
AF = 648
WS = 1150 (251 dmg stat)
HP = 1049

Blademaster
______________________________
No Buffs

Unbuffed stats
AF = 553
WS = 1150 (179 dmg stat)
HP = 1419

First test was unbuffed ranger vs unbufffed BM, which the results wasnt even close , the ranger died , with the BM having 50% or more health.

Second test was buffed ranger vs unbuffed BM, which the results ended up being 50/50 fight, with the BM wining by 1% life left, and the BM didnt use any of his skills, like slam, flurry, triple wield, parry styles, and so on.

So as you can see, even on live a BM doesnt need to be buffed when facing a 50 PF spec ranger to be equal, when not using any of his extra features, while the ranger could also use his stealth and bow to start the fight, the fight would of been very balanced without pot or charge buffing, so i do not see the need for it on uthgards classic setup. Why is there charges and pots on live, well because one there is buffbots and two, mythic doesnt mind giving people the advantage, if they spend time working tword it. Because time spent is money spent, but that isnt uthgards mission. Here is the chatlog for both fights. I did more with variences, but like said before, this is basicly the outcomes.

===============================================


*** Chat Log Opened: Sat Dec 05 03:59:08 2009

** UnBuffed Ranger vs unBuffed Blademaster **

[03:59:11] Blathnarchara is too far away to attack!
[03:59:13] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:13] Blathnarchara misses!
[03:59:13] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:13] Blathnarchara hits you for 56 damage.
[03:59:14] Blathnarchara is too far away to attack!
[03:59:14] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 53 damage!
[03:59:15] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:15] Blathnarchara hits you for 68 damage.
[03:59:15] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:15] Blathnarchara hits you for 112 damage.
[03:59:17] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:17] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[03:59:17] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:17] Blathnarchara hits you for 64 damage.
[03:59:19] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:19] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:19] Blathnarchara misses!
[03:59:19] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:19] Blathnarchara hits you for 80 damage.
[03:59:21] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 60 damage!
[03:59:21] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:21] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[03:59:21] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:21] Blathnarchara hits you for 64 damage.
[03:59:22] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 54 damage!
[03:59:22] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:23] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:24] Blathnarchara hits you for 75 damage.
[03:59:24] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:24] Blathnarchara hits you for 59 damage.
[03:59:25] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:25] You miss!
[03:59:26] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:26] Blathnarchara hits you for 77 damage.
[03:59:26] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:26] Blathnarchara hits you for 60 damage.
[03:59:26] Blathnarchara hits you for 53 damage.
[03:59:26] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 64 damage!
[03:59:26] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[03:59:28] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:28] Blathnarchara misses!
[03:59:28] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:28] Blathnarchara hits you for 63 damage.
[03:59:28] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:30] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:30] Blathnarchara hits you for 74 damage.
[03:59:31] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 67 damage!
[03:59:31] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:32] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:32] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[03:59:33] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 61 damage!
[03:59:33] You hit Blathnarchara for 63 (-22) damage!
[03:59:34] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:34] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[03:59:35] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:36] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:36] Blathnarchara hits you for 72 damage.
[03:59:36] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:36] Blathnarchara hits you for 78 damage.
[03:59:37] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:37] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[03:59:38] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:38] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[03:59:39] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 48 damage!
[03:59:40] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 61 damage!
[03:59:40] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[03:59:41] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:41] Blathnarchara hits you for 77 damage.
[03:59:41] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:41] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[03:59:42] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 61 damage!
[03:59:42] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 50 damage!
[03:59:42] You critical hit for an additional 7 damage!
[03:59:43] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:43] Blathnarchara misses!
[03:59:44] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 60 damage!
[03:59:44] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 50 damage!
[03:59:45] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:45] Blathnarchara hits you for 72 damage.
[03:59:46] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[03:59:47] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:48] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[03:59:48] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[03:59:48] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[03:59:48] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 68 damage!
[03:59:48] You critical hit for an additional 10 damage!
[03:59:48] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[03:59:50] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:50] Blathnarchara misses!
[03:59:50] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 64 damage!
[03:59:52] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[03:59:52] Blathnarchara hits you for 70 damage.
[03:59:52] Your duel ends!
[03:59:52] Finvachagen was just defeated in a duel by Blathnarchara!
[03:59:52] You have died. Type /release to return to your last bind point.
[03:59:52] Blathnarchara wins the duel!
[03:59:52] You died fighting for your realm and lose no experience!

** Blademaster won with 50% life left **

*** Chat Log Closed: Sat Dec 05 03:59:55 2009



*** Chat Log Opened: Sat Dec 05 04:05:28 2009

** Buffed Ranger vs Unbuffed Blademaster **

[04:05:30] Blathnarchara is too far away to attack!
[04:05:32] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:32] Blathnarchara hits you for 49 damage.
[04:05:33] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:34] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:34] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:05:34] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:34] Blathnarchara hits you for 66 damage.
[04:05:35] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[04:05:36] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:36] Blathnarchara hits you for 77 damage.
[04:05:36] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:36] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:05:36] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 70 damage!
[04:05:36] You hit Blathnarchara for 16 extra damage!
[04:05:38] You miss!
[04:05:38] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 74 damage!
[04:05:38] You critical hit for an additional 22 damage!
[04:05:38] You hit Blathnarchara for 14 extra damage!
[04:05:38] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:38] Blathnarchara hits you for 65 damage.
[04:05:38] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:38] Blathnarchara hits you for 61 damage.
[04:05:39] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 68 damage!
[04:05:39] You hit Blathnarchara for 15 extra damage!
[04:05:39] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 70 damage!
[04:05:39] You hit Blathnarchara for 20 extra damage!
[04:05:41] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:41] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:05:41] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:41] Blathnarchara hits you for 50 damage.
[04:05:41] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 80 damage!
[04:05:41] You hit Blathnarchara for 16 extra damage!
[04:05:41] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 68 damage!
[04:05:41] You hit Blathnarchara for 20 extra damage!
[04:05:43] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:43] Blathnarchara hits you for 73 damage.
[04:05:43] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:43] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:05:43] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:44] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 70 damage!
[04:05:44] You hit Blathnarchara for 14 extra damage!
[04:05:44] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:45] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:45] Blathnarchara hits you for 76 damage.
[04:05:45] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:45] Blathnarchara hits you for 51 damage.
[04:05:46] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:47] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:47] Blathnarchara hits you for 68 damage.
[04:05:47] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:47] Blathnarchara hits you for 60 damage.
[04:05:48] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[04:05:49] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:49] Blathnarchara hits you for 76 damage.
[04:05:49] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:49] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:05:49] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[04:05:51] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[04:05:51] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:52] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:52] Blathnarchara misses!
[04:05:52] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:52] Blathnarchara misses!
[04:05:53] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 59 damage!
[04:05:53] You hit Blathnarchara for 18 extra damage!
[04:05:54] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:54] Blathnarchara misses!
[04:05:54] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 55 damage!
[04:05:54] You hit Blathnarchara for 20 extra damage!
[04:05:56] You miss!
[04:05:56] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:56] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:56] Blathnarchara hits you for 58 damage.
[04:05:57] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:59] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:05:59] Blathnarchara misses!
[04:05:59] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:05:59] Blathnarchara hits you for 58 damage.
[04:05:59] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:05:59] You miss!
[04:06:01] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:06:01] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:06:01] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:06:01] Blathnarchara hits you for 64 damage.
[04:06:01] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 83 damage!
[04:06:01] You hit Blathnarchara for 15 extra damage!
[04:06:01] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:06:02] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 74 damage!
[04:06:02] You hit Blathnarchara for 15 extra damage!
[04:06:02] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 74 damage!
[04:06:02] You hit Blathnarchara for 16 extra damage!
[04:06:03] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:06:03] Blathnarchara hits you for 104 damage.
[04:06:03] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:06:03] Blathnarchara hits you for 57 damage.
[04:06:04] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[04:06:04] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:06:05] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:06:05] Blathnarchara misses!
[04:06:06] Blathnarchara evades your attack!
[04:06:06] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 73 damage!
[04:06:06] You hit Blathnarchara for 19 extra damage!
[04:06:06] You hit Blathnarchara for 62 (-22) damage!
[04:06:07] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:06:07] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:06:07] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:06:07] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:06:07] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 79 damage!
[04:06:07] You critical hit for an additional 33 damage!
[04:06:07] You hit Blathnarchara for 21 extra damage!
[04:06:07] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:06:09] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 76 damage!
[04:06:09] You hit Blathnarchara for 17 extra damage!
[04:06:09] Blathnarchara parries your attack!
[04:06:09] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:06:09] You evade Blathnarchara's attack!
[04:06:09] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:06:09] Blathnarchara hits you for 54 damage.
[04:06:11] You miss!
[04:06:11] You attack Blathnarchara with your dirk and hit for 67 damage!
[04:06:11] You critical hit for an additional 16 damage!
[04:06:11] You hit Blathnarchara for 14 extra damage!
[04:06:12] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:06:12] Blathnarchara hits you for 112 damage.
[04:06:12] Blathnarchara attacks you with his dirk!
[04:06:12] Blathnarchara misses!
[04:06:12] You attack Blathnarchara with your rapier and hit for 65 damage!
[04:06:12] You hit Blathnarchara for 16 extra damage!
[04:06:14] Blathnarchara attacks you with his rapier!
[04:06:14] Blathnarchara hits you for 66 damage.
[04:06:14] Your duel ends!
[04:06:14] Finvachagen was just defeated in a duel by Blathnarchara!
[04:06:14] Your agility returns to normal.
[04:06:14] Your Dexterity has decreased.
[04:06:14] Your Quickness has decreased.
[04:06:14] Your strength returns to normal.
[04:06:14] Your Strength has decreased.
[04:06:14] The shield around you fades.
[04:06:14] You have died. Type /release to return to your last bind point.
[04:06:14] Blathnarchara wins the duel!
[04:06:14] You died fighting for your realm and lose no experience!

** Blademaster won with 1% life left **

*** Chat Log Closed: Sat Dec 05 04:06:17 2009

question is: if you fight a bm - or a zerker - and they fire their abilitys;
how to stun? im blade/cd, i have only a sidestun. and since the new server with the higehr bandwith no one could sidestrafe me yet - neither could i sidestrafe anyone. /face or /stick and there is no opening.

you can try to sprint away, but due to snowshower and perma snare, no chance.

since the rangers speed burst get interupted by everything its not a tool to run away (which it should be), so that doesnt help either. you basicly can just stick it out. and try to counter it with IP and healthpot.


and the ranger vs ns is a nice try, but without PA, that ns missed the biggest par of his damage. thats how you bring assasins down. make them miss pa.
you will die eventually on account of lifebane, but there is a chance to outdamage them even with the evade. MOS helps there plenty.

all in all, no fight is predeterment and the outcome can change by one simple thing.

often enough i was behind in hitpoints and just about to loose, when i did a doublehit with crit on the mainhand and DD proc on offhand killed my enemy in one go.
sometimes a bit of luck is all it takes.

on the other hand, i lost to a kobold infi once big time, missed ice storm, had him evade excessivly, i stumbled twice and he won the fight with 80% hp left.
and i was using str/con, haste and a health pot in that fight.
there are far too many variables to consider.
procs, offhandhits, crits, missed, fumble, evades, parry/block on some targets, bladeturns, instant abilitys, active/passive RAs.

even with a class that should win against a full selfbuffed and charged up ranger 100% of the time there can be a useless player with a gimpy spec and a drop armor behind it and lose big vs what they should roll over :)

unless you test every valid combination of chars, speccs and ras against each other, and often enough to average out the luck factor, and then do the same again with pots, there wont be a conclusive answer.

best example is my vale with his whole inventory page of barrels.
some fights he just evades, evades, evades some more, then parries, then evades some more, ending the fight with 100% left.
in the next fight against the same target he will just miss one style after the other, the instants all get resisted and he never has a defensiv event. and just falls over, leaving the enemy at nearly 100% health.



i doubt that no matter how long and extensive we test, there will be a defintiv result that would justify removal of pots/charges due having to big of an impact.
but there is a good chance that the results wouldnt justify to leave them in either due to too little impact.
in the end, there are drops out with procs and charges that far exceed potions anyway. arent those more debateable?

my hero has a spear with +63dex/quick selfbuff proc on it. 33 more then i would get from a potion. all i have to do is hit some random mob 1-3 with it to have it proc, then switch to my combat spears.
doesnt even cost something to sustain, never liked the need to recharge items with charges.

.... yes some fights will vary, but the discussion was that, many claim that without charged and pot buffs, everyone would lose to self buffing classes like the ranger. While i just showed some proof from live, that isnt close to being true. Now i could do more and more testing, but maybe later, but im sure it will all come to like i expected.

And maybe there is less leg on uthgard with the new server, but it doesnt matter how fast it is, because lag is created from the player, server and enemy, so no matter what, there is allwes a possiblity to pull a side/back style. Which i have done plenty of times on my Blademaster out in Braemar, with a nice tempest fallow up. Having no trouble on him, unbuffed. If you cant pull off positionals on a facing target, your just not trying hard enough. And maybe if these classes didnt have charges and pots to buff there non buffing classes, maybe they wouldnt totaly kick your butt, because of there special skills. They will not be a picknick, but at least youd stand a chance, with a little luck of course.

Unless you like having to RA dump to win.

Eclipsed, what about Rangers with selfbuffs and buff pots/charges vs a bm with buff pots/charges?

Krinton3 wrote:Fantastic, I hadn't realized there were other reasons for people enjoying buff pots. You've really opened my ignorant eyes.

I don't think you understood me.

Krinton3 wrote:I'm sorry, but I haven't been RvRing for years. The extent of my experiences haven't pitted me up against many rangers or self buffers. And the times where I did, I was unbuffed and was still able to fight them. (This was on my minstrel) You like to cite RvR experience with the assumption that everybody has had the same experience as you.

First of all, I you don't have the experience then honestly you should let the people who do decide, as you have nothing to contribute.

Krinton3 wrote:Why don't you tell me? Instead of assuming that I know, or mocking me for not knowing, why don't you tell me how self buffers perform on the open field with other players having buffs? I've already pointed out that the disadvantage might be negligible - but it's there - and I don't know the extent. Why don't you enlighten me rather than telling me "Oh you just have to have general experience in RvR and it's so obvious!"

It has been told repeatedly in this topic, even a few times by me personally. Do I really have to sketch it to you?

Krinton3 wrote:Secondly, common sense? Is it really common sense to say that just because a class can buff itself means that it'll kill everyone else?

What the hell are you talking about?

Krinton3 wrote:What, do you play a goddamn Friar and are a god at duels and are untouchable? Or have you had your ass consistently kicked by Friars even with self buffs? I'm sorry if I don't have your glorious knowledge of how friars do when fighting unbuffed players, because I've never seen it outside of miscellaneous duels, but why don't you tell me?

Yes I play a goddamn Friar, no I'm not untouchable, yes a Friar will lose to everyone unbuffed except maybe a semi-afk healing class.

Krinton3 wrote:I didn't make that mistake. You edited your post to make yourself sound right. I obviously can't prove it, but honestly, what kind of crap is that? And do you think that random, even less controlled fights, in the frontiers are a more reliable way to judge anything? There are so many MORE variables, and so much more SKILL to consider. Yes, there's obviously riggability, but if you look at a log and fraps and see that one person is obviously doing something wrong, then that duel can be thrown out.

WTF!? I edited my post to sound right? ROFL.

Krinton3 wrote:Those do have their own issues. But, as it stands, all classes can benefit from them in about the same way, unlike buff pots. There's a few exceptions, like all of these being much stronger in the hands of tanks, but that would take much different arguments and doesn't pertain much to this discussion. I wouldn't really be in favor of removing them, but I could sure as hell bring up good reasons.

No. Some classes benefit much more, and it wouldn't take "much different arguments" or any of that BS. Casters aren't meant to have permasprint, or be able to get power instantly, or tanks having ALSO permasprint and an additional interrupt, etc. etc. By following your logic, these should also be removed no matter how much you try to dodge the issue. EOD.

Krinton3 wrote:Yeah, it's not, but that's one very common argument against removal of buff pots. If this actually turns out to be true, that self-buffers are overpowered, then the entire argument, to me, is thrown out.

Again: You. Can. Not. Test. This.

Krinton3 wrote:I want to ask you, though, if you would be upset if buff pots were removed, and why.

Is it because you'd get rolled by self buffers all day?
Is it because you find fighting buffed players with buff players in solo more enjoyable?
Is it because you feel it will have an impact on 8v8?
Is it because you think it'll upset to many people?
Is it because you feel that they promote balance themselves, outside of fighting self-buffers?
Is it because you'd feel like the game is being cheapened/diluted by getting rid of them?

Honestly, I would think people wouldn't be so upset about not having to buy barrels/make barrels/buy recharge stones. But that's just me. What harm do you think would come if they were removed or made to be only used one at a time?

I already said several times why they shouldn't be removed. You might at least read the topic you're participating in. Please read now:

1.) They are already nerfed compared to live both in re-use timers and the ammount they buff.
2.) The strongest charge is very rare and hard to get.
3.) Recharge prices have been raised substantially.
4.) They provide a moneysink for the economy.
5.) The benefit the realm because of giving people a reason to either skill up and alchemist, or buy from one.
6.) The Uthgard RvR situation NOW and the way it's been before both speak strongly in the favor of them staying in the game.
7.) They can't be removed on this idiotic "omg they're the counter for buffbots notion" as they are pre-SI and classic.
8.) The community is almost wholly opposed to removing them.
9.) Solo and smallman RvR are dead with OF, removing buffpots and charges will take corpse out and rape it.
10.) Again: By this logic, you should remove all end regen pots and DD charges, thus making alchemy worthless and not fun.

Oh and about these worthless tests I see posted:

Live tests are useless, as Uth pot/charge situation is very different.
Duel test are even more worthless, becouse for the 100th time: They depend on SKILL, are not trustworthy, and prove nothing.


And I won't even comment the fact that this guy fights a BM heads on, without even using a bow from stealth, as a RANGER. And in the second test the BM is for some reason prohibited from using his class abilities.

Eclipsed wrote:So as you can see, even on live a BM doesnt need to be buffed when facing a 50 PF spec ranger to be equal, when not using any of his extra features, while the ranger could also use his stealth and bow to start the fight, the fight would of been very balanced without pot or charge buffing,

And that's why pots&charges where introduced

Yes I play a goddamn Friar, no I'm not untouchable, yes a Friar will lose to everyone unbuffed except maybe a semi-afk healing class.

Uh, I meant the friar has his own buffs on and the opponent doesn't have their buff pots. Obviously a friar who buffs himself is going to be useless in combat. I thought you meant that the friar would kill everything that didn't have buff pots. Geez.

WTF!? I edited my post to sound right? ROFL.

ROFL ROFL LMAO LMAO ROFL THAT NEVER HAPPENS ON FORUMS WHERE YOU CAN EDIT YOUR OWN POST WHEN YOU SCREW UP AND WORD SOMETHING WRONG LMAO LMAO

No. Some classes benefit much more, and it wouldn't take "much different arguments" or any of that BS. Casters aren't meant to have permasprint, or be able to get power instantly, or tanks having ALSO permasprint and an additional interrupt, etc. etc. By following your logic, these should also be removed no matter how much you try to dodge the issue. EOD.

You know what? It's true, I do think that end pots and DD charges are beneficial to certain classes more. But, it's not nearly the same thing. With the exception of end pots on tanks, these things aren't things that everyone needs to pick up, and they don't give a dramatic advantage to any classes. None of them are useless in one hand and useful in another, they're tools that everyone can use and work into their own strategies. Buff pots, on the other hand, are static little effects that are often completely worthless to certain classes, giving a well-defined and obvious disadvantage to certain classes.

Also, DD charges for interruptions is total bull, when it happens it's the biggest pain to know that you lost just because they got you to stop casting for like 5 seconds with some stupid charge. If anything, I wouldn't remove them, I'd make it so that they don't interrupt. Tanks wouldn't get an unfair advantage with them, and casters would still be able to use them from far away to help finish off a target.

Now, please, if you want to make claims that these arguments are direct attacks against everything you like, please keep in mind that I'm also not in favor of outright removal of these charges. Limiting them for 1 or 2 pots/charges at a time, I think, would probably be the most extreme measure I would support. Removing them would be lame.

1.) They are already nerfed compared to live both in re-use timers and the ammount they buff.

Okay, well, I just want to make it so that you're limited to how many you can use at a time.

2.) The strongest charge is very rare and hard to get.

This is why you want charges? Well, whatever, if the change I'm suggesting happens, it won't be any less useful, I think.

3.) Recharge prices have been raised substantially.

Yeah, that really helps the economy doesn't it.

4.) They provide a moneysink for the economy.

Still will.

5.) The benefit the realm because of giving people a reason to either skill up and alchemist, or buy from one.


If just buff pots are nerfed, then there's still a million reasons to use alchemists.

6.) The Uthgard RvR situation NOW and the way it's been before both speak strongly in the favor of them staying in the game.

Those things 'speak'? And says who? You?

7.) They can't be removed on this idiotic "omg they're the counter for buffbots notion" as they are pre-SI and classic.

Buff bots are pre-SI and classic. They just weren't rampant pre-SI. My step dad caught on to the ability to do this, he made a second account and started leveling a cleric on it to buff his scout to help it solo. This was before SI came out. He was out in salisbury.

8.) The community is almost wholly opposed to removing them.

*Shrug* Not what I've seen, I've mostly seen people who weren't really interested in it, and Eclipsed posting a million times.

9.) Solo and smallman RvR are dead with OF, removing buffpots and charges will take corpse out and rape it.

You mean people will just stop going out if they're not full buffed?

10.) Again: By this logic, you should remove all end regen pots and DD charges, thus making alchemy worthless and not fun.

No, no, no Stop making absurd claims. If you want to twist my arguments that way, then so be it, but nobody here wants that, and if I thought that they were anything like buff pots, I would have brought them up. But the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, they're NOT. So stop tacking this onto the list of things that make my arguments flawed. [/i]

First of all, I you don't have the experience then honestly you should let the people who do decide, as you have nothing to contribute.

Okay, that's it. From this point on, I'm not responding to any of your posts. Don't even bother. I have nothing to contribute to you, and you have nothing to contribute to me. If you refuse to listen to anything I say on the basis that I don't have much level 50 experience, you're not worth my time.

Well i could of ran the test with pots and charges, but why ? Cant you fiqure out how stats works. I mean what we have in the test is a ranger with no extra stats vs no extra stats, then its 90 d/q, 85 af, 62 str, 9.4 da. And the ranger then stands a chance. Now lets give the BM or NS 4 buffs, 2 charges , 2 pots of uthgard value. 56 s/c, 63 d/q, 20 str, 20 con, while we give the ranger 2 charges, 2 pots . 56 s/c , haste, 20 dex, 20 con.

Origenaly The ranger with his 50PF bonus gave him
____________________________
+76 dmg stat (90 D/Q, 62 str)
+14.4% haste from D/Q
+85 AF (1% absorb = 10AF = 8.5% absorb)
+9.4 DA

So the bm/ns has with charge/pots
+69 extra dmg stat (56 s/c, 20 str)
+76 extra con (56 s/c, 20 con)
+12.6% (63 D/Q)

And the Ranger has with PF and charge/pot
+38 dmg stat (56s/c, 20dex)
+76 extra con (56/sc, 20 con)
+11% haste (17% haste)

========================================
So in total the Ranger now has with his 50 PF and 4 extra buffs.

114 dmg stat from buffs
76 extra con
25.4 haste
85 AF
9.4 DA

And the BM/NS has with 4 buffs

So the bm/ns has with charge/pots
+69 extra dmg stat (56 s/c, 20 str)
+76 extra con (56 s/c, 20 con)
+12.6% (63 D/Q)

So now it looks like the ranger is in the lead, but in my test the ranger had buffs over the NS/Ranger and came out balanced, so we have to subtract the buffs from the BM/NS from the rangers to see how much of a lead the ranger has now, with charges and pots thrown in.

114 dmg stat ( 45 dmg stat above enemy )
76 extra con ( Equal )
25.4 haste (12.8% above enemy)
85 AF ( Same value )
9.4 DA ( Same value )

So what did giving the charge and pot buffing to both do, well it lowered the rangers overall dmg stat above his enemy by 40.7%. It also lowered the haste factor for the ranger above his enemy by 11.1%. While the other ranger buffs like AF and DA stay the same. The ranger also gained more con, but so did his enemy equaly , so that wouldnt of made a diff. And since the ranger had those AF and DA in the duel i did on live and came to a balanced fight, we know it doesnt make the ranger OP, and all that the buffing did is lower the rangers stats more. The equivlent fight unbuffed fight would of been with 40.7 less dmg stat and 11.1 less haste for the ranger, which would of looked like this.

Rangers 90 D/Q buff now is 54 Dex (-40%) Dmg Stat
Rangers 62 Str buff now is 37 Str (-40%) Dmg Stat
Rangers 90 D/Q buff now is 80 Qui (-11%) Haste Factor
Rangers AF is still 85
Rangers DA is still 9.4

So if i dueled with these stats vs ether target, the outcome wouldnt of been balanced. Even with the ranger using 4 extra buffs from 2 charges and 2 pots as the NS/BM get, the ranger is still getting nerfed by this. Most of you will not understand, or say your wrong , as you guys like to do without any reasoning. That is why i suggest the staff, to consider who is actualy putting in input, and who is just trying to save there current above normal status.

Eclipsed wrote:Most of you will not understand, or say your wrong , as you guys like to do without any reasoning.

You don't get it ... or?
The big question is, why should a ranger has a chance to win against a BM in such a dumb fight? It's like complaining about casters can't win against tanks in melee.

There is one (of the biggest) advantages the ranger has ... stealth. Rangers are able to choose targets, or avoid groups.
That's game design.

Krinton3 wrote:Uh, I meant the friar has his own buffs on and the opponent doesn't have their buff pots. Obviously a friar who buffs himself is going to be useless in combat. I thought you meant that the friar would kill everything that didn't have buff pots. Geez.

:roll:

Krinton3 wrote:ROFL ROFL LMAO LMAO ROFL THAT NEVER HAPPENS ON FORUMS WHERE YOU CAN EDIT YOUR OWN POST WHEN YOU SCREW UP AND WORD SOMETHING WRONG LMAO LMAO

First of all the post shows as edited after a short time has passed and second of all - no, I didn't edit anything, you're just wrong and having trouble accepting it.

Krinton3 wrote:You know what? It's true, I do think that end pots and DD charges are beneficial to certain classes more. But, it's not nearly the same thing. With the exception of end pots on tanks, these things aren't things that everyone needs to pick up, and they don't give a dramatic advantage to any classes. None of them are useless in one hand and useful in another, they're tools that everyone can use and work into their own strategies. Buff pots, on the other hand, are static little effects that are often completely worthless to certain classes, giving a well-defined and obvious disadvantage to certain classes.

Also, DD charges for interruptions is total bull, when it happens it's the biggest pain to know that you lost just because they got you to stop casting for like 5 seconds with some stupid charge. If anything, I wouldn't remove them, I'd make it so that they don't interrupt. Tanks wouldn't get an unfair advantage with them, and casters would still be able to use them from far away to help finish off a target.

You can also use them while chasing opponents, and tanks don't do much casting. And yes, almost everyone picks up end regen pots to have permasprint, probably even more then they use buffpots. Please go play a little before posting.

Krinton3 wrote:Now, please, if you want to make claims that these arguments are direct attacks against everything you like, please keep in mind that I'm also not in favor of outright removal of these charges. Limiting them for 1 or 2 pots/charges at a time, I think, would probably be the most extreme measure I would support. Removing them would be lame.

I think your suggestion has no logic whatsoever, and you're just bringing it up so it seems like you contributed. I'd rather have them totally removed than implement such a half-assed solution.

Krinton3 wrote:Okay, well, I just want to make it so that you're limited to how many you can use at a time.

Why?

Krinton3 wrote:This is why you want charges? Well, whatever, if the change I'm suggesting happens, it won't be any less useful, I think.

Erm, yeah. How about we make them usable only on...um, Fridays? That seems like a nifty solution to me!

Krinton3 wrote:Yeah, that really helps the economy doesn't it.

Moneysinks usually do.

Krinton3 wrote:Still will.

I don't know when you turned this into a discussion about your... "suggestion", but newsflash: it isn't.

Krinton3 wrote:If just buff pots are nerfed, then there's still a million reasons to use alchemists.

For the third time: By using this logic more than buffpots has to be removed.

Krinton3 wrote:Those things 'speak'? And says who? You?

Yes, they speak. They speak volumes for people who aren't completely ignorant in the subject matter. And yes, says me and people who played here much longer than me.

Krinton3 wrote:Buff bots are pre-SI and classic. They just weren't rampant pre-SI. My step dad caught on to the ability to do this, he made a second account and started leveling a cleric on it to buff his scout to help it solo. This was before SI came out. He was out in salisbury.

Err, ok?

Krinton3 wrote:*Shrug* Not what I've seen, I've mostly seen people who weren't really interested in it, and Eclipsed posting a million times.

The large majority of people in this topic are against the removal.

Krinton3 wrote:You mean people will just stop going out if they're not full buffed?

A large number of people, yes.

Krinton3 wrote:No, no, no Stop making absurd claims. If you want to twist my arguments that way, then so be it, but nobody here wants that, and if I thought that they were anything like buff pots, I would have brought them up. But the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, they're NOT. So stop tacking this onto the list of things that make my arguments flawed. [/i]

Of course no one want's that, but most people also don't want buffpots removed, yet you people are trying to sell the removal/restriction of buffpots/charges as a good and sound decisions. Well sorry for messing it up for you with simple logic. My bad.

Krinton3 wrote:Okay, that's it. From this point on, I'm not responding to any of your posts. Don't even bother. I have nothing to contribute to you, and you have nothing to contribute to me. If you refuse to listen to anything I say on the basis that I don't have much level 50 experience, you're not worth my time.

Bye.

I think your suggestion has no logic whatsoever, and you're just bringing it up so it seems like you contributed. I'd rather have them totally removed than implement such a half-assed solution.

I'll explain this to you once, you wacky kid you, and that's it. Don't bother responding back.

Limiting buff pots to one or two at a time will:

a) Leave buff pots as still needed/wanted.
b) Allow the small amount of pots used in 8v8 to continue to be used there where needed
c) Prevent players from running around full buffed all the time.
d) Be totally fair to self-buffing classes: Self-buffers can utilize a small amount of buffs, and it will be approximately the same amount of buffs as the other player will benefit from.
e) Casters will still be able to buff their dexterity in solo situation, which is the main part, so this won't be a direct nerf to them. It won't give them too much of an advantage, as tanks will still be able to use str/con and such.
f) Powerful, rare charges will still be just as potent, but you'll have to choose which ones you wish to use. So people who spent all their time or money getting a rare charge will still be able to use it.

Benefits a,b,e, and f will all be gone if they're removed outright.

The problems associated with this change? I'm aware of them.

a) Players will see this as an impairment of their ability to fight, despite the fact that their opponent will have the same limitation.
b) If self-buffers are indeed overpowered, this will shift the balance in their favor.
c) Demand for alchemy will drop. Instead of an alchemist selling several barrels to a guy, they'll probably be selling one or two. Usually though, I think players make their own alchemists to avoid having to hassle with buying.
d) Solo gameplay is a bit slower paced. Everyone deals less damage. I think this is a very valid concern.
e) It may be unnecessary. If the situation is already balanced, why dick with it? Why make people for no good reason?

And not 'real' problems, but problems nonetheless:

a) It's not the way DAoC has ever worked, it's very custom.
b) A lot of people are used to being fully buffed always, and adjusting to a different system would be uncomfortable.


So please Nymeros, treating me like I haven't given anything any thought, and that I just started playing the game yesterday will get you nowhere. My argumentative nature has led me to replying to yet another one of your posts, but I assure you, that's all I'll say to you. It would have been great if you were constructive instead of dismissive, and informative instead of mocking, but you simply weren't trying to discuss in any positive or helpful way, simply trying to dismiss everything said and disregard my comments in a very flippant fashion.

So please, just because I don't have massive experience fighting self-buffers with a non-self buffer (I played with a buff bot on live, and play a smite cleric here), doesn't make me ignorant on how this game works. I'm still somewhat new to Uthgards 50 RvR scene, but it's very hard for a player in my timezone to find good action.


...

Eh, forget it, I've made my point many times. I think it'd be good for balance to prevent people from using buff pots like buff bots. I also hope that Eclipsed realizes that there's not much to gain from further discussions of this, and I hope that the Staff is able to read this behemoth of a thread and use it to help them come to any further decision on this subject.

For now, though, I'm out. It's too low key of an issue to put this much effort into (despite how much I feel my logic is sound).

Eclipsed, good luck. I hope you come to the same decision as me - discussing this with the forum is a waste of time, we've said what we've needed to say, and they've said what they've needed to say to us - the Staff is the judge of who was right and wrong, and I hope the Staff comes to the right decision, regardless of which side they choose.

Probably the status-quo side, but hey, sometimes status-quo is good.

Smooth wrote:

Eclipsed wrote:Most of you will not understand, or say your wrong , as you guys like to do without any reasoning.

You don't get it ... or?
The big question is, why should a ranger has a chance to win against a BM in such a dumb fight? It's like complaining about casters can't win against tanks in melee.

There is one (of the biggest) advantages the ranger has ... stealth. Rangers are able to choose targets, or avoid groups.
That's game design.

Everything you just said i have alrdy explained, even in the test, i stated that the BM didnt use triplewield or flurry or his shield slam, while the ranger didnt use his stealth, or bow. While having 50 PF, and decent melee, will make your stealth and or bow not so great. That wasnt the point of the test. The point of the test was to show how a ranger or other self buffing classes wouldnt be overpowered with there self buffs vs non buffers. It even should in most cases it makes them balanced or almost balanced.

For all you that dont like my idea, fight it as you are, then fight to have buffbotting, because that is the kinda game play your intrested in. Maybe a little buffbot NPC in RvR would make the game fun for you. I think its cheap and makes the game to unbalanced and easy mode for some classes, but thats just me.

Eclipsed wrote:but thats just me.

I agree.