Forumbuffpots and charges in a non-buffbot classic setting
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we've all gotten used to it.
You WILL NOT DROP YOUR PF FOR POT BUFFS. You will only use those buffs which PF does not provide you -> STR/CON, CON, DEX, haste. I think that is more than enough to get you brutally overpowered in melee.
no, it doesn't increase their performace AS MUCH, but charge/pot buffs increase it still very noticably, thus bringing both classes on par. Since rangers (for example) with their selfbuffs are above the level of an unbuffed class, even ripping light tanks if well specced. So in order for other classes to stand a chance, they use those mini-buffs, of which ranger too can use a great deal and still stay on top. Again, you don't listen, we're moving in circles for the last 10 pages. There is nothing more to say on this topic and I believe a lock would be appropriate.
no, you really don't. from the first page, you haven't said anything new. I can read your last post, it's the same like reading the first. <strong>FIX TEH PROFILE PAGE SO I CAN CHANGE MY SIG PLZ</strong>
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Jesus christ Eclipsed your logic fails so hard!
You do know ranger self buffs already got a boost right? Probably due to the fact that buffpots and charges were ingame. AND they were a lot more powerful here than back then... Of course you skipped this little fact and rant on. Seriously dude, let it go! It's more custom and unbalancing than any other change ever asked or debated about, still you seem to have a freecard to spew bullsh*t every single time just because you write walls of text nobody wants to read anymore because ALL of your arguments are either invalid, incorrect or just plain stupid. Please lock this!!! (Yes, now I AM begging.... ) Oh wait, Nixian agrees with Eclipsed... but I'm sure it won't harm is neutrality, right?  |
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Ive alrdy explained this. GOD! But here is it simple. Your example is a 1min bufftime with 2 charges and 2 pots. Now lets see what exactly that gives a ranger, who has 42 PF <-- Ideal spec. Celt Ranger RR6 (No PF Buffing)(No Charge/Pot Buffing) ___________________ 39+16 Pierc = 950 WS Health = 1278 HP Melee Haste = 19.6% (Qui) Celt Ranger RR6 (42 PF Buffing)(No Charge/Pot Buffing) ___________________ 39+16 Pierc = 950 WS + 188 WS (51 Str + 78 D/Q) = 1138 WS Health = 1278 HP Melee Haste = 19.6% (Qui) + 15.6% (PF D/Q) = 35.2% Celt Ranger RR6 (42 PF Buffing)(Charge= 56 s/c, 17% haste, Pot = 20 Con, 20 Dex) ___________________ 39+16 Pierc = 950 WS + 188 WS (51 Str + 78 D/Q) = 1138 WS + 112 WS (1 Charge , 1 Pot) = 1250 WS Health = 1278 HP + 274 HP (1 Charge, 1 Pot) = 1552 HP Melee Haste = 19.6% (Qui) + 15.6% (PF D/Q) = 35.2% + 11% (1 Charge) = 46.2% The Rangers 42 PF gives him 188 WS , 0 HP, 15.6% haste. Charge/Pot Gives the Ranger 112 WS , 274 HP, 11% haste Total Buffs give the ranger 300 WS, 274 HP, 26.6 haste =============================================== Now lets look a the 1 min bufftime for another class, who doesnt get self buffs and is a tank. Celt Hero RR6 (No Charge/Pot Buffing) ______________________________ 39+16 Blades = 1219 WS Health = 1755 HP Melee Haste = 15% (Qui) Celt Hero RR6 (Charge= 56 s/c, 63 d/q, Pots= 20 str, 20 con) ______________________________ 39+16 Blades = 1219 WS + 272 WS (1 Charge, 1 Pot) = 1491) Health = 1755 HP + 367 HP (1 Charge, 1 Pot) = 2122 HP Melee Haste = 15% (Qui) + 12.6% (1 Charge) = 27.6% Total Buffs give the Hero 272 WS, 367 HP, 12.6% haste ============================================== As you can see the hero gains about the same WS from his 4 buffs, vs the rangers 6 Buffs, but the hero gains more HP, but less Haste. Now the hero could wait a little longer and get the haste buff too, while the ranger is out of buffs to raise it again. Now Yes these values look balanced, but we are forgetting one very importent thing. What the classes get without there buffs, the naturel stats. The Ranger got 950 WS The Hero got 1219 WS The Hero has 269 more WS then the ranger does naturely The Ranger got 1278 HP The Hero got 1755 HP The Hero has 477 HP more then the ranger does naturely The Ranger got 19.6% Melee Haste The Hero got 15% Melee Haste The Ranger has 4.6% more melee haste then the Hero does naturely =============================================== Now as you can see the hero/tank has way more naturel WS and HP, while the Ranger/Stealther has a little more naturel melee haste. So as i agrue, Mythic origenaly gave these classes there bufflines to give them more WS and or more Health to compete with non self buffing classes who have much higher natureal stats. As stated in patch 1.51 when mythic rewarded the champion with his str/con self buff to counter tanks natural high con. So by giving everyone buffs, you can see that some, espeicaly non buffers gain more or less from charges/Pot and even Buffbots if we had them. That is why we dont have buffbot, because of the balance issues on classic setup. Now youl claim you cant compare a tank with a stealther or hybrid. Why, do they not fight in solo fights ? Do you really think a tank is required to allwes win vs them, THAT is BS. But Lets look at the assasin, who have low naturel WS and health, just like the ranger, but doesnt get self buffs. What he gets is a 118 str/con debuff, which drops his enemys naturel stats and or buffed stats down to his level better, along with his DoT for extra dmg. But if you give an assasin buffs, your raising his stats, while his str/con debuff lowers the stats of a self buffer below balance, which makes it unfair. Now non self buffers vs each other with charges/pots is balanced because they are not required to use a buffline, so they gain 100% from these buffs, while a self buffs is designed to have to use his self buffs to balance his class, so the other charge/pot buffs he can still get will have little benifit to him vs non buffers who have them also, which reduces the effect of his self buffline line, by something like 33% I wish i knew how to dum this down even more for some of you, but im not sure what to say. Maybe meee ranger can kill, give me OP self buffs and no buffs for all. O wait, that is what some of you alrdy think, from all the complex formulas and what the adults are talking about.. umm i dont know then. Just read over all this, 50 times if you have to, and if you still dont understand what i mean, avoid saying, " tank can allwes kill stealther/hybrids , so you cant compare " and just say nothing. Because saying nothing is what youve alrdy said. If your use to all the major buffing and tons of features, go join i50. |
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I think I've finally figured it out.
Eclipsed is just a very elaborate forum troll! All these posts are just trolling and not for a real purpose  |
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You do realise you got some tools that need to be taking into consideration when you compare a ranger to a tank? Like... Dual wield, stealth and bowspec. Also, since you are talking about your selfbuffs, why aren't you including the damageadd? Damageadd on dual wield weapons add quite alot of dps you know. |
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JESUS F*ING CHRIST ECLIPSED I WONT EVEN READ THROUGH THIS BULLSHIT AGAIN. YOUR NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING AND YOUR LOGIC IS FLAWED. NO, NOT FLAWED, IT'S PURE AND UTTER BULLSHIT. Staff I apologize for the outburst, but I've come to believe he's really just trolling and copy/pasting his previous replies. He's just too stubborn and unwilling to read other people's opinions. He keeps repeating the same thing all over again on every counter statement from other forum members. Man, I'm out of here. <strong>FIX TEH PROFILE PAGE SO I CAN CHANGE MY SIG PLZ</strong>
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Yep I've noticed the same and feel exactly like you. Again, please lock this nonsense thread, this should have been done a long while ago really, but it's not too late for it I guess... |
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This thread can't be locked becouse nixian and a few devs agree with it, so Eclipsed will just keep on spamming, copy/pasteing sensless walls of text, and making no sense whatsoever becouse in his mind the game he's playing is balanced for 1 vs 1.
The rest of us who play real DAoC can sadly only watch as he is given space to troll us around. Almost 17 pages (would be 25+ if nixian hadn't deleted half the posts) for one person and no arguments, and yet all the cure nearsight threads get a simple "Not gonna happen" and a lock in a matter of seconds.  |
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maybe you should consider that this could happen if you look at staffs comments, that is why it hasn't been locked if staff said: We will never alter or remove pots/charges I would say: Okay then there is nothing to discuss, closed and ps. you guys are really working hard to make this spammy, flamy and offtopic, cut it out or I will have to start giving out warnings which in the end might end in forum bans, so cut it out! if you have nothing constructive to say then don't say anything and no, stuff like "eclipse/whoever you are TOTALY WRONG OMFG GET IT RIGHT ALREADY" isn't a valid argument, at least have the respect to clarify where you think he is wrong and come up with some valid arguments to why he is, instead of "stating the obvious" which you apparently think you are |
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Comparing rangers with heroes or whatever classes is not a valid argument also, but it's all that Eclipsed is doing in this thread, posting from 2 to 2 posts another class comparison. They brought valid arguments, when alchemy was introduced (before SI), and other issues (the livelike values / timers are different), but who listens them? Staff should stop the custom changes to show who's the boss (just my oppinion), and better implement and fix things that aren't working than removing what is properly implemented already (pots / charges - despite their nerf) or ruin an almost perfect balanced server with 1.65 patch or old ra's (that they can't test anywhere). Noone argued the staff's power of decision, and we know that you will do whatever you want, but listen the comunity point of view too (not only 1 player - Eclipsed) before making drastic changes. Everybody can be wrong, we are humans, staff too. |
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Look here, nixian, we already countered his arguments twice or more, yet he keeps repeating the same nonsense over and over. Not only does he provide totally useless information, he just keeps bringing up the same stupid comparisons, leaving out 90% of the game's aspects such as casters, healers and basicly any side ability characters got, if you look at that in a rational way, he's doing nothing more than trolling this thread to death, so don't come and tell us to stfu, it's him you need to warn, not us. Again you're picking sides without even properly reading what has been said, which completely lacks neutrality as I have already pointed out to Blue. Sadly he doesn't see the thorn in the forum community's eye, but maybe you might one day. Maybe you might... |
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Just so it's said three times: he's already been proven wrong many times, by many of us, and yet this thread goes on. The community does not want this. I've never seen people here so unified on something, usually they fight over everything: RAs, OF vs NF, even removal of SI classess, but here we are all unified except Eclipsed. And what's even more important, we are RIGHT. Are you (and part of the staff that agree with this) waiting for us to get tired and just say "Bah, ok, go for it"? |
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as I have said to Zarkor in irc
Try to look besides his posts then and look at some of the other (and to me valid) arguments in this case presented by both me and Nayru and I think blue too and you really didn't read what I wrote did you?
enough offtopicness, if you wanna discuss this(the not locking thing) with me - PM me or catch me in IRC |
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my PF/potion buffed ranger runs around with two 22DPS weapons, can attack unseen, hence stun the enemy on the first hit and dish out 2-3 hits before the enemy can react, dropping him to anywhere from 40% hp to 80% hp.
then the warrior gets out of the stun, looks at me, wonders what the hell i am doing attacking him, slams me and kills me before my stun runs out. then he /shrugs and walks away. and no combination of pots/charges on either of us will change that. only way to take down even an unbuffed fulltank is ganging up on him. with 2 or 3 rangers. maybe an nightshade for additional PA damage. all buffed up. and chances are good that one of us stealthers dies. they got tools too, you know. just like we do. a hero goes moose and has what was it, 400/500 more hp you have to scratch down. a berserker goes hamster on you and crits with every single hit. a warrior is stable as a rock and freeley changes from defense to offense without loosing damage. the way i see i wont get much weaker without potions. at least not on the ranger. i just use str/con and haste anyway and most times, they arent on in the first place. speaking from ranger point of view, no change we could ever introduce will make me stronger then removing pots/charges. i can attack and beat pretty much anything out there, and if i cant do it myself, i get myself a wingman. making that even easier by taking away what little effect my targets can get from pots and charges sounds like a good idea at first. but not if you look at the implications. most of my targets wont go out solo if they dont have pots, because the little boost they get from them are enough to give them enough confidence to run without backup. and those that run solo with or without pots i can beat anyway. taking buffs away from then just will make it plenty easier for me. now, speaking from the other side, my hero ventures out alone occasionally. that will stop if i dont have str/con and haste anymore. not because they make me sooo much stronger, but simply because i have a 5.7 speed weapon and the little more WS i get from the pots improve my chances to slam and skewer and assisin a little. i can do without, using a different speer that has a dex/quick selfbuff on it and a 3.5 sec swing time to open the fight - or kills grey mobs till it procs. then go with my 4.5 lifedrain spear instead of my 5.7 one. but in any case, it would take some fun out. i could still beat ONE assasin, pretty easy with a little luck. but if there are two of them, i couldnt kill one before they drop me. potions dont change the one on one, but the one on X. if i cant drop one before i die due to being a fraction slower, do a fraction less damage, and have a fraction less hp, then i wont go out at all. at the current point it doesnt matter if the 2 that jump me are buffed or not, as long as i am buffed, i can take one down befotre the second one kills me. and everybody gets some rp out of it. if i cant selfbuff me, that just aint happening, mainly due to just having very very slow weapons and no haste, d/q. nothing will change in 1 on 1. everything will change in 1 on 2/3. and even less ppl will want to go out solo. and even more ppl, especially stealthers, will group up. and a 1 on 1 will always be at least a 2 on 2. heck, finding a solo stealthers is already next to impossible. ive seen two infis running with a cleric, having full buffs and heals in combat, using the cleric as bait. same with sbs and healers. that doesnt have to get worse. and as a sidenote, i AM already way stronger then im supposed to be. the selfbuffs from PF line are supposed to get an ARCHER somewhat on par once in meele. you drop bow completly and go for full out meele, those buffs will have a bigger effects then if you are archer/splitspec anyway. i am NOT supposed to fight evenly with a berserker, but i can. i am NOT supposed to fight evenly with a merc, but i can. i am NOT supposed to fight evenly with 2 infis, but i can. all i got to do is destealth them and avoid the PAs, force them into pur meele where i win out by far due to my way higher meele damage. my benefits from PF make up for their damage boost from critical strike. they cant land those, they will lose the biggest part of their damage, while i always have the boost PF gives me. i have antural bonus with slash against leather. i have higher con being shar against kobold/saracene. my damage stat WILL decrease dramaticly due to str/con debuff, but its effects is lessend due to my self str buff and the 7.5 DPS damage add and the high attackrate due to my 75 quick i get from my dex/quick selfbuff. i attack faster with a very slow mainhand then they will and hence, my procs will fire more often, boosting my damage anyway. while their damage is reduced due to the higher ABS of my reinforced armor and my self AF buff. PF give me as meele spec more then enough bonus to kill asssasin classes, potbuffed or not, duo or not, just as long as i can avoid the PAs. and no matter from what char i look at it, pots dont screw up the balance as much as you like to make us think they do. even for my ench it doesnt matter if may targets are potbuffed or not. and i f there where no pots, it would again just make me stronger. all pots do is softening the differences between the classes a bit, making it MORE possible to fight any class with any other class. not LESS possible how you state it. every possible encounter i could imagine, either win or lose, will only have a bigger difference without them. if i lose, i lose by a lesser margin. if i win, i win by a lesser marigin. i wont win a fight im supposed to lose just because we both had buffpots and charges and they made him far stronger then they made me^^ that claim by itself is just ridiculous. no matter how i look at it, all this topic is about is to make YOU stronger, give YOU a better change to win against classes you SHOULDNT win in the first place. giving YOU the chance to win against a 5 realmrank higher SB by taking away some of his power will keeping yours. thats ALL this topic is about and the way you argue to reach this goal is pathetic at best. you are using comparisons between classes that CANT BE compared, you compare abilitys that CANT BE compared, you picture fights THAT SHOULD NOT happen in the first place and you argue that you LOSE a fight that you SHOULD LOSE BY DEFAULT simply because your enemy might have had buffpotions/charges and YOU would have won if he didnt have them. i said it before and i say it again, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO WIN AGAINST A FULLTANK, NEITHER ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO WIN AGAINST AN ASSASIN WITH A WAY HIGHER REALM RANK! you are supposed to have a CHANCE to win against an assasin of EQUAL OR LESSER realmrank. you are supposed to have a CHANCE to take down a fulltank WITH TWO OR MORE stealthers, not BY YOURSELF. your class comes with the definition of AIDING your realmates in a fight, not outpower them in any given situation. get that in your head^^ |
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Last night i thought, hey why not ask mythic themself , what the purpose of self buffs are. And today i got a respone.
Hello Ben, Self-only buffs are designed to benefit the class that they are given to for a variety of reasons. For some classes, like the Heretic, these bonuses help to offset some of the limitations the class has (low natural AF / ABS) while also providing additional bonuses for specializing in a certain line. These buffs are self-only is because while it may be balanced for one class to have a benefit, it wouldn't be balanced for all classes - imagine an ABS buff being cast on a heavy tank. By making these buffs self-only, they help to even the playing field for classes in some respects, and in others they provide benefits that reward you for specializing a particular way or for playing a certain class. Hope this helps - the short answer is, "Both schools of thought are partially right in certain situations." Best, Lori Hyrup Dark Age of CamelotMythic Entertainment, an EA Studio |
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