Alrdy people are going offtopic to just insult me, claiming i cant beat anyone, so that has to be why i made this topic, which affects many self buffing classes.

Please go read rule 2.1 before some of you end up getting into trouble with the staff.

And just because the server may have been like this at one point doesnt mean it was because of the self buffs. One that was on New RA system, and how many class patches on uthgard has there been since then. And just because tons picked rangers and other self buffing classes to play back then, didnt mean they where OP, just means some of them fallow the theory ( +buffs = stronger then everyone ) even though they didnt understand that other classes gain a better dmg table/hp, better defenses, some kinda spells and so on. Amatures look at the game from face value, as what is happening in this discussion.

And someone said something about assasins specing for poisons and rangers specing for buffs, and that is all true, but do you see assasins sharing there poisons, while buffs are access able, DA accessable, AF accessable. Now we can get a debuff charge, which does nerf a assasins poison, but that can be purged and not re-applyed in a fight because of timer, unlike a assasin poisons only need extra weapons with spars, as a smart assasin does. Also does the charged str/con debuff stack with the poison one ? I seen it did on other servers, which maybe a bug , but if not then a poison debuff and charge can be applyed, so it doesnt nerf theres. But anyway i suggested to remove stat buffs, and debuffs since some classes are unique because of the feature to debuff.

But plz keep this on the topic, and stop bashing me. This has nothing to do with my ranger, dont worry about me, i can solo just fine, vs some classes and others i have to kite because the effects of buffs on some. If the bashing contues with my name or refrencing me to insult, i hope the staff will take action if need. THanks. Its just to bad not everyone can me mature about things, even things you dont like.

Eclipsed wrote:1. Why did mythic origenaly give some classes self buffs and not to others.

because some guy in their development meant its smart to have it, without thinking further

Eclipsed wrote:2. Why didnt mythic give assasins self buffs, as they did to like archers, who are on the same stats table as the assasin ?

because assasines are even without buffs deadly (the poison and debuffs you statted out)

Eclipsed wrote:3. Why didnt they give scouts self buffs like the other two archers ?

well, they fixed their misstake at scouts. sadly for uthgard too late. (1.87 on live wile uthgard stops at 1.80)
the move from selfbuffs for archers into bowline was a fix..not a patch.

Eclipsed wrote:4. Can all self buffing classes compete equaly without there buffs vs a unbuffed non self buffing class ? And why.

Very easy. as long as you dont say a supporter (bard, druid, shaman, healer, cleric) must be equal in melee to a fighting class. its not their purpose to fight. even if they have selfbuffs.

EVERY class can succeed in fights if its well played. if its buffed or not doesnt matter. ppl without skill will disagree...ppl with skill will agree.

Eclipsed wrote:5. Why does some classes who are on low stat tables, like the minstrel, dont get self buffs too ?

because minne can charm a pet to buff him...thats why he dont need to have buffs himself
HA-my point
that a lot of pets here on uthgard lack their buffing abilitys is not the fault of the class..

Eclipsed wrote:Answers these and ill reply to them.

all answered..but why you ask US about the ideas of some developer.

Musikus wrote:

Eclipsed wrote:1. Why did mythic origenaly give some classes self buffs and not to others.

because some guy in their development meant its smart to have it, without thinking further

Eclipsed wrote:2. Why didnt mythic give assasins self buffs, as they did to like archers, who are on the same stats table as the assasin ?

because assasines are even without buffs deadly (the poison and debuffs you statted out)

Eclipsed wrote:3. Why didnt they give scouts self buffs like the other two archers ?

well, they fixed their misstake at scouts. sadly for uthgard too late. (1.87 on live wile uthgard stops at 1.80)
the move from selfbuffs for archers into bowline was a fix..not a patch.

Eclipsed wrote:4. Can all self buffing classes compete equaly without there buffs vs a unbuffed non self buffing class ? And why.

Very easy. as long as you dont say a supporter (bard, druid, shaman, healer, cleric) must be equal in melee to a fighting class. its not their purpose to fight. even if they have selfbuffs.

EVERY class can succeed in fights if its well played. if its buffed or not doesnt matter. ppl without skill will disagree...ppl with skill will agree.

Eclipsed wrote:5. Why does some classes who are on low stat tables, like the minstrel, dont get self buffs too ?

because minne can charm a pet to buff him...thats why he dont need to have buffs himself
HA-my point
that a lot of pets here on uthgard lack their buffing abilitys is not the fault of the class..

Eclipsed wrote:Answers these and ill reply to them.

all answered..but why you ask US about the ideas of some developer.

Reply 1 = You do not have facts on that claim, just a guess that a dev screwed up and fixes it many many many patches later. Please give better reasoning.

Reply 2 = So assasins dont need buffs because of poisons and other skills they get, as that way my point too. But then why give them charges/pot buffs ? And why is a class like a ranger, who isnt buffed equal to the assasin , who has poisons ?

Reply 3 = ...... yes they fixed it, only tons and tons and tons of patches later, at the same time giving hunters and rangers free buffs by way of bow now, freeing up more spec pts. This was done to make bow spec more rewarding, as stated by mythic, making 50 bow worth it. Trust me, im a archer at heart, so ive read mythics stupid caster archery changes. Please give a better reason why they didnt get self buffs, till 1.87.

Reply 4 = If that is the case, why does bards, shamans and so on have offense skills like dd's, melee specing and so on. TO BE ABLE TO SOLO. There buffs make it possible for them to be able to.

Reply 5 = So why does a minstrel need a pet to charm for buffs, you said buffs makes these classes to strong, in your first answer. They also get a stun, mez, 2 dds, and a pet to charm. That is why. And in chain.

Keep them coming.

i followed this from the start and read every post carefully.

what i dont get is this:

are you REALLY convinced that being FULLY filled up to the neck with potions and charges- having 10-20 points more meele damage, 100 more hitpoints and 2% better evade chance REALLY makes a bigger difference ina one on one than high RR vs low RR?

it DOES NOT MATTER if a high RR sb if buffed or not, it WILL kill a low RR ranger, even if he IS buffed.
the edge that a high RR and with that the amount and effect of RAs give you by far outweights the minimal effects you get from potions.

you know, you could beat the crap out of a rr9 sb if you where rr9 yourself and arent completly useless.



you would have high enough MOS to attack him with critshot, halfing his hitpoints by the time he gets to you, and by doing so take away his strongest attack, PA/BS.

you still will get hurt plenty from lifebane with viper3, but then again, if you use ip during the fight and purge after you won, you might get away.

but aside from viper/pa, what does he have? even fullbuffed his meele damage isnt that impressive.
plus with your PD its not like you die by getting looked at the wrong way.


honestly, saying that all this will be reundant on account of pots is just ignorant.

you are NOT supposed to win a one on one as a low RR against a high rr^^

RR and with it, RAs are the benefit for spending a long time in rvr, and the RAs you can get reflect that.

and with or without pots/charges, that wont change.

You look at this from a 1on1 perspektiv only.Can´t really blame you since your a solo char.But did you EVER think about how this would affect Grp RvR?There are 2 realms that need to charge buffs to be on-par with the other realm, one beeing Albion which is already the weakest realm due to the custom caster nerf Setting here,the other one beeing mid which doesn´t really bother me to much since Mid is Easy mode anyways...rethink your postings while having that in mind -.-...

what do mids have to charge?
hmm..
specbuffs since a shammy with red specbuffs cant buff all 8 players with all specs?

Take a server where buffbots are allowed, then start a discussion about removing them. What you get is basically this thread.

Same old arguments on how buffbots are fair and balanced get recycled to show how buffpots/charges are fair and balanced.
Oh, some new supermoronic twists too: obviously, a ranger without con buffs will become uber in an environment full of viper3 assassins.

If we really want a server without buffbots, buffbots in a bottle or buffbot-items should be an absolute no-go. For many reasons, they are actually worse than the original. Sure, they existed on life, but in an environment that was full of buffbots already anyway. Having them here is like giving methadone to people that previously never touched drugs in their whole life. And looking at some reactions to this discussion, it's frightening how fitting that analogy seems to be.

That's not to say that buffpots/charges need to be dropped immediatly. The server is working pretty decently with them currently (just like life eventually worked pretty well with buffbots), and there's no telling what side-effects we'd face, that currently noone is even thinking about. This would need very careful consideration, to not end up with another agramon portercamp removal, which, while based on solid priciples too, only resulted in additional work to get fixed again.

Mids need to charge 1 combo buff each if they want to be fully buffed.

Why do you guys always compare buffbot to buff charges and buff potions? You by far do not get the performance boost that a full-grown buffbot will give you if you use the buff potions and charges that Uthgard has to offer.

So please stop using this wrong analogy because buff potions and charges cannot be compared to buffbots! This is useless just emotional dialectic.

Let's use this topic for something constructive for a change.

The Uthgard potion/charge system is very well balanced. It's severly nerfed compared to live (much higher re-use timers, no craftable Dmg Add, lowered charge bonuses - Acuity especially, STR/CON only available from Legion etc etc).

It also provides a valuable money sink for the game economy, and makes more people skill-up Alchemy, some of them even to LGM thus benefiting their own realm and realmmates.

The BP recharge cost is even too high, especially when you take into account Old Frontiers and slower RP/BP gain for soloers due to port timers/running and such.



Blue (or some other member of the staff), could the BP recharge price please be lowered now?

Again: The higher you spec your self-buffs the higher they lift you above the "basic level". So when a player of a self-buffing class meets a player of non-buffing class who uses the whole battery of buff potions and buff charges available to him that might about even out chances, nothing more. Still it has to use tons of charges with timers that cannot be activated directly one after another while self-buffing classes have 1) their self-buffs on no timers and 2) can cast them all directly one after another.

As Satz (I think he was it) said before: Look at Uthgard history, look at ARS-server history - nearly every solo rocking class there was a self buffing class with of all things the rangers being the leading class there although on ARS there easily were charges available giving +75 str/con / dex/qui / int plus items with bonus on buffing.

/edit: unindentedly sorta raped that post

Der_Eisbaer wrote:

Eclipsed wrote:It only cost about 4 gold more then the recharge merchent. So i dont think its too expensive. Kinda cheap. And these charges and pots are only balanced when its a non self buffing class vs a non self buffing class. Got to consider that 30% who are not part of that.

Please stop your agitprop-behaviour. You wrong statement wont get right if you repeat it.

Again: The higher you spec your self-buffs the higher they lift you above the "basic level". So when a player of a self-buffing class meets a player of non-buffing class who uses the whole battery of buff potions and buff charges available to him that might about even out chances, nothing more. Still it has to use tons of charges with timers that cannot be activated directly one after another while self-buffing classes have 1) their self-buffs on no timers and 2) can cast them all directly one after another.

As Satz (I think he was it) said before: Look at Uthgard history, look at ARS-server history - nearly every solo rocking class there was a self buffing class with of all things the rangers being the leading class there although on ARS there easily were charges available giving +75 str/con / dex/qui / int plus items with bonus on buffing.

Your still claiming that all self buffing classes where designed equal, and that there ablity to self buff is only a + and isnt needed to be equal with other non self buffing classes. The problem is you and many others are still looking at buffing at face value. Like if someone has +50 str/con more then you, they are 50 dmg stat and 50 health more then you, even though you are not even considering the classes design at all. Like 50 str/con has a greater value on a hero, then it does on a warden, while its equal when its on a hero and blademaster. It doesnt make sense for mythic to give classes buffs, to make them over the top. If that is your claim, why is there not a single class who can self buff, who is on a high dmg table / hp table ? Why did mythic also give classes like a bard or warden free base line buffs also, you dont have to spec for that. I guess mythic intended those classes to be OP out of the box.

Can any of you , just come up with a NEW claim and then i can answer with a new answer, then having <---- to repeat myself.

And if you dont like how recharges are currently working, please make a new threat to discuss it. This thread has nothing to do with that part of the game and is offtopic.

Then, please, answer: how many dex/qui buff does a pierce ranger need to have simmilar ws as a thrust-scout has without? considering simmilar spec?

Satz wrote:Then, please, answer: how many dex/qui buff does a pierce ranger need to have simmilar ws as a thrust-scout has without? considering simmilar spec?

answer is none..
so compared to his archer counterpart the ranger has far more WS which would lead into unbalance.

oh, and as i see than, any scouts enemy has a chance to spec a RA to counter slam, but there is no RA that would counter str, dex/qui, dmadd and specaf around. So its kinda imbalance aswell?

So, therefore a scout does need pots and charges to be able to fight a ranger on par.