Krinton3 wrote:Druids/Wardens etc. 's buffs are still 100% useful regardless of whatever the hell you can SC onto your items. Why? Because, genius, everyone can benefit from them - they stack with the spellcrafter items, and not only that, every single type of character in the game can get their 26% resists. They're not at ANY type of disadvantage because instead of 26% they have 34% or more.

Resist buffs aren't hampered in any form by spellcrafter buffs, because they STACK. If self-buffing classes could also add potion buffs that STACKED with their self buffs, then fine, it's a universal thing, but it doesn't.

That one is true, I chose a wrong example, mea culpa.

Buff-Potions and Charges as they are now available are balanced:

Let's see

Krinton3 wrote:

Der_Eisbaer wrote:- You must repeatedly invest time and ingame-ressources to get buff charges

That never balances anything. Take ToA for example, and then eat this argument.

Where is the argument in your ToA-example? Everybody can get the ToA-stuff by investing some time and game ressources just like for buff potions and charges here on Uthgard. Of course there are people that have stuff faster than others but noone is excluded a priori hence it is balanced. If you are too lazy to achieve goodies that you can get just like everybody else it is your problem and not the system's problem.

Krinton3 wrote:

Der_Eisbaer wrote:- Your delve-multiplier is only 1 compared to up to 1.25 that buffs from buff classes have.

The point isn't that it's just as good, it's that you're getting it AT ALL. Putting you at an advantage over the classes that get self buffs. Who cares if it's only 3/4ths as effective? The point is that you're getting these buffs, bringing you above their level. Self buffing classes are at basic level power with their full buffs, but with any buffs, a non self buff class yet still above basic level power. Thus, they have the advantage.

Der_Eisbaer wrote:- The buff-charge-values are not that heavy tbh.

This is the same as your previous point. The fact that the delve isn't as high isn't relevant to Eclipse's argument, nor is it to this conversation. If the delves were negligible, then sure, whatever, but they're not negligible. +63 str/con is significant no matter which way you try to spin it.

Der_Eisbaer wrote:- Really everybody can do it which includes the classes with self-buffs.

All your arguments here are basing on one single thesis which I high-lighted in the next quote:

Krinton3 wrote:A self buff class won't benefit from this, as they need full quality buffs to perform at their basic level, and in many cases, abandoning the buff-spec in favor of using buff-pots all the time isn't even viable.

That thesis I doubt. In my opinion and based on my own long-time DAoC-experience this is only true if you have your self-buffs on a low level (not more than about level 20). The stronger your self buffs become the more they lift you above that basic level. So of course do the buff potions and charges, too, but still your self-buffs will lift you more above your basic level than the buff potions and charges will lift non-self-buffer above theirs.

You also should mention that in terms of potion timers and charge timers your self-buffs are neutral: When you use them you do not trigger any timer and you can rebuff them whenever you like. A player that uses buff potions and charges must have an eye on its timers so you can in fact use more buffs (your self-buffs and buffs from potions and charges) than a player with no self-buffs, plus that your self-buffs are a lot stronger. So here your self-buffs will give your also some advantages that player with non-self-buff-chars do not have.

Krinton3 wrote:The only true valid complaints are:

-Those of who spent time getting charges
-Casters being gimp

I would like to admit that I in no case stated that casters were gimp nor that I think so please do not impute that to me.

Krinton3 wrote:Anyways yeah bro your logic isn't very sound

I would like you to mind your tune in future. You can speak like that to the likes of you, to me you will speak in a modest tune.

All pots and charges are balanced because all players in all realms can use them. And selfbuffs are only one of speclines that you have, and you can decide if spec or not. Warden is bad example because is semisuporter, and he has free buffs too.
In my opinion if you can decide if spec or not selfbuffs, this buffs aren´t really important, because you can choise or buffs or better weapon damage... For example casters have free selfbuffs becuase thier buffs are very important for them and for have them they dont need train this speclines.

Satz wrote:But only if you automatically remove alchemy and spellcrafting, since these both things came with toa.

Both came with patch 1.54 which - at least in europe - was the last patch before the release of SI.

I understand the point and it's really an interesting thing to think about. However, his motive for wanting this change seems to be mostly about buffing his own char

I understand how people can think it's an issue of having a non-buffbot policy (which is great) and still having charges and statbuff potions. On live you couldn't compete in the sologame without a buffbot, here you will struggle to compete if you don't farm for charge items and/or use statbuff potions.

I do understand that buffpots isn't buffbots and that it's nowhere near as much of a problem compared to buffbots but I still think this can be looked on as a bit of an issue, not so much for "solo expert stealthers" (People that mostly solo or duo to get rps will probably go farm for the needed items or make sure to get pots) but more so for other more grouporiented chars and hybrids that wants to go out solo every once in a while.

One can argue that the "solo experts" deserve the extra edge due to the effort they put into getting their buffs but the way I see it they will usually have edge anyways from being a specialized solo char. I played a solo minstrel for a long time on live (pre-toa and old RAs) and I beat alot people 1on1 easily that I wouldn't kill very often if they would have RAs and specs aimed for small group or solo combat.

And the old "I farmed for my legionnecklace / Levelled a alchemist" is silly and can't be taken seriously as an argument. It's the nature of the beast for changes and balance. Individual benefits or nerfs shouldn't stand in the way of balance. And it's not like alchemists would be nerfed to the ground, you can still use and sell procs and heal/power/endregen potions.

That being said, I don't really see this as a big issue and i'm not sure if I want selfbuffs from potions/items removed or not. The current system with slighty less potent buffs from items and buffs might very well be the best solution.

I think selfbuffing hybrids are ALOT more viable here on uthgard compared to live where pretty much all the soloists used a buffbot to totally remove the value of selfbuffs. Tbh, I can't think of any selfbuff class that would be considered easy rps here and that is a really good thing. I also feel that many selfbuffing classes got some love on live that they probably wouldn't have gotten if buffbots wasn't allowed and a total removal of statbuff items might accually make selfbuffing hybrids too strong.

vangonaj wrote:All pots and charges are balanced because all players in all realms can use them

Thats not an argument. If BuffBots were added and all players could use them, would that balance them?

vangonaj wrote:And selfbuffs are only one of speclines that you have, and you can decide if spec or not.

So if we gave free Poison skill to everyone and told assasins to suck it up and its totally fair, because its not the only skill they have and they dont need to spec it and can put their points elsewhere, that would be fair by the same argument?

That thesis I doubt. In my opinion and based on my own long-time DAoC-experience this is only true if you have your self-buffs on a low level (not more than about level 20). The stronger your self buffs become the more they lift you above that basic level. So of course do the buff potions and charges, too, but still your self-buffs will lift you more above your basic level than the buff potions and charges will lift non-self-buffer above theirs.

This argument makes me dizzy. Oh so dizzy.

I feel my head spinning. Let me look at the rest of your post before I address this.

Where is the argument in your ToA-example? Everybody can get the ToA-stuff by investing some time and game ressources just like for buff potions and charges here on Uthgard. Of course there are people that have stuff faster than others but noone is excluded a priori hence it is balanced. If you are too lazy to achieve goodies that you can get just like everybody else it is your problem and not the system's problem.

ML abilities, Artifacts, stat cap breakers, were they balanced? Oh but you had to spend a lot of time and effort to get them? But were they balanced? No.

They weren't. So saying that having to spend time on anything won't make it balanced. If I had to spend 300 hours and 2 hours each day to get a sword that could kill anyone in one hit, is that balanced? No. It isn't. It never will be.

I would like to admit that I in no case stated that casters were gimp nor that I think so please do not impute that to me.

I didn't. I was just stating overall what the general complaints were about removing pots. Bro.

I would like you to mind your tune in future. You can speak like that to the likes of you, to me you will speak in a modest tune.

Well I suppose I could talk to myself in any way I like, but bro, come on, dude. Bro. Dude. Bro.

Cool it bro.

Back to this:

That thesis I doubt. In my opinion and based on my own long-time DAoC-experience this is only true if you have your self-buffs on a low level (not more than about level 20). The stronger your self buffs become the more they lift you above that basic level. So of course do the buff potions and charges, too, but still your self-buffs will lift you more above your basic level than the buff potions and charges will lift non-self-buffer above theirs.

In my opinion and based on my own long-time DAoC-experience this is only true if you have your self-buffs on a low level (not more than about level 20).

Buffs progress at the same rate for anyone. A level 20 buff isn't any more effective for a level 20 than a level 50 buff is for a level 50. I don't see any difference.

The stronger your self buffs become the more they lift you above that basic level

So "that basic level" being the stats you had at level 20? Or am I mistaken? You're confusing the hell out of me. If you're trying to say that a self-buff class can compete with level 20 buffs, or that a self-buff class can compete without any buffs at all, and anything beyond that is overpowering them, then I suppose I'm able to pull some sort of understanding out of that statement.

So, if the given concept is in fact what you were getting at, you're stating that self-buff classes, in fact, already fight at a greater level than that of classes that don't get selfbuffs - and in essense, they are giving themselves overpowering buffpots - and every other class in the game is simply evening out the odds by getting their own buff pots?

Is this what you were getting at?

If so, I say one word: Balderdash. A self-buff class won't, on average, kill every other class, because they not only get less for their buffs, but they also have simply lower weaponskill/abilities/etc, and in the end, fully buffed, a class with self buffs is about equal to a class with no buffs at all. They obviously have some advantages being buffed and having higher stats, but that's part of the package.

Otherwise, I have NO clue as to what you were trying to say: reiteration might be helpful in such a case.

So of course do the buff potions and charges, too, but still your self-buffs will lift you more above your basic level than the buff potions and charges will lift non-self-buffer above theirs.

This, I suppose, helps clarify your argument.

So, what you're saying is that, in simple terms, that self-buffing classes are Overpowered, and don't deserve any more advantages over classes that don't get their self-buffs.

Is this your argumentation?

Gerbald wrote:

vangonaj wrote:All pots and charges are balanced because all players in all realms can use them

Thats not an argument. If BuffBots were added and all players could use them, would that balance them?

vangonaj wrote:And selfbuffs are only one of speclines that you have, and you can decide if spec or not.

So if we gave free Poison skill to everyone and told assasins to suck it up and its totally fair, because its not the only skill they have and they dont need to spec it and can put their points elsewhere, that would be fair by the same argument?

What is balance for you?

And not all assasins run with lifebane and last st/con debuff poison, not all have 44 or 50 in cs...

First of it seems important to me to remind your of the origin of the term "basic level":

Krinton3 wrote:A self buff class won't benefit from this, as they need full quality buffs to perform at their basic level, and in many cases, abandoning the buff-spec in favor of using buff-pots all the time isn't even viable.

So in fact it is you that should explain what you would like to adress and I think we should start the re-iteration right there. Until that is clearified I suggest pausing discussing your thesis.

Krinton3 wrote:

Der_Eisbaer wrote:Where is the argument in your ToA-example? Everybody can get the ToA-stuff by investing some time and game ressources just like for buff potions and charges here on Uthgard. Of course there are people that have stuff faster than others but noone is excluded a priori hence it is balanced. If you are too lazy to achieve goodies that you can get just like everybody else it is your problem and not the system's problem.

ML abilities, Artifacts, stat cap breakers, were they balanced? Oh but you had to spend a lot of time and effort to get them? But were they balanced? No.

They weren't. So saying that having to spend time on anything won't make it balanced. If I had to spend 300 hours and 2 hours each day to get a sword that could kill anyone in one hit, is that balanced? No. It isn't. It never will be.

Please excuse me and feel free at any time to correct my following statement but this one reads to me just like a big ToA-QQ. The only thing you are saying is that ToA-stuff - which was introduced by you as an example for stuff that people have to invest time and game ressources into in order to get it - is not balanced because... well, because! You do not give any reason for that. The reason I do give versus that statement is simple: Nobody is a priori excluded from getting that stuff hence it is possible for everybody to get it and everybody has to take the same efforts to do so and therefore that is de facto balanced. Now if you do not wish to take the efforts mentioned above it is your problem. You could do it, you chose not to -> not the system's fault. That of course applies to buff potions and charges too.

So what does that mean to your example of some Incredible Sword of WTF-pwnage that one-hit kills everybody? It means that if everybody has to deal with the same difficulties to get it it is of course balanced. Here again: You too lazy -> your fault, not system's fault.

Now, please: If you can disprove that please do so but please: Do it with arguments, not just "It is so because I say so!".

Krinton3 wrote:

Der_Eisbaer wrote:I would like to admit that I in no case stated that casters were gimp nor that I think so please do not impute that to me.

I didn't. I was just stating overall what the general complaints were about removing pots. Bro.

Alright.

One can argue that the "solo experts" deserve the extra edge due to the effort they put into getting their buffs but the way I see it they will usually have edge anyways from being a specialized solo char. I played a solo minstrel for a long time on live (pre-toa and old RAs) and I beat alot people 1on1 easily that I wouldn't kill very often if they would have RAs and specs aimed for small group or solo combat.

That is very true, however I think the issue about having worked hard for something and getting it taken away is indeed a valid concern

Some kind of compensation would be needed at the least

lets take a look at the legion necklace for example:

atm I have made a template where I on purpose is missing a few stats and hitpoints and resists in order to fit in my legion necklace and a few other charges to reduce the swapping

it would be a huge blow if my 100p template would become unusable because of the removal of charges on my jewelry

however, if charges was changed instead of removed that would still make my template usable

ie. 30 second buffs (like dmg add atm) or 1 minute (so max 1 charge buff at a time)

this would make charges valuable (even if just for a tactical use the charges would still be usable and worth something for a solo toon with 0 selfbuffs)

that way you still have valuable charges but you will never face "unbuffable solo toons" (like NS, inf, SB, warrior, skald, sorc, whatever, etc) which is 100% buffed

the same timers could be put on potions, so that they have the same purpose but you won't find players with a "bottle buffbot" running around

this would make it way more casual and enjoyable to rvr

(and maybe then re-up charge values to livelike values as they would have a tactical purpose and not a buffbot purpose)

Der_Eisbaer wrote:So what does that mean to your example of some Incredible Sword of WTF-pwnage that one-hit kills everybody? It means that if everybody has to deal with the same difficulties to get it it is of course balanced.

sorry sir, you just failed.
giving one item to all classes in the game is not balanced. let's take a hypothetical sword of wtfpwnage that one-shots every character in the game. Do you claim that if everyone had it, it would be balanced and everyone would stand equal chance against everyone else? Hell man, I think tanks would be the first ones to start crying. I think food chain would look something like this:

stealthers ---> casters ---> tanks

no class would be able to stand up to a stealther which would just sneak up on everybody, one-shotting them. mages would simply CC tanks before striking and tanks... well, you get the point.

ToA wasn't balanced, with more features it just brought more imbalances to the game. I'm not saying alchemy truly is - I just like it.

Amadeth wrote:

Der_Eisbaer wrote:So what does that mean to your example of some Incredible Sword of WTF-pwnage that one-hit kills everybody? It means that if everybody has to deal with the same difficulties to get it it is of course balanced.

sorry sir, you just failed.
giving one item to all classes in the game is not balanced. let's take a hypothetical sword of wtfpwnage that one-shots every character in the game. Do you claim that if everyone had it, it would be balanced and everyone would stand equal chance against everyone else? Hell man, I think tanks would be the first ones to start crying. I think food chain would look something like this:

stealthers ---> casters ---> tanks

no class would be able to stand up to a stealther which would just sneak up on everybody, one-shotting them. mages would simply CC tanks before striking and tanks... well, you get the point.

ToA wasn't balanced, with more features it just brought more imbalances to the game. I'm not saying alchemy truly is - I just like it.

Hm... basically you are saying that the "true value" of something can vary depending on who gets its hands on it and therefore can lead to imbalances even if everybody has to face the same difficulties in achieving it. I think you are right in that point so saying "everybody has to face the same difficulties" alone is not an argument. Maybe we can agree on the following statement:

If something ingame can be achieved by investing time and ingame ressources its balance / imbalance depends on 1st who can get it and 2nd how one can get it.

Applied to our alchemy problem the 2nd part is balanced because everybody faces the same difficulties in getting its hands on buff potions and charges. About the 1st part we need to think.

Der_Eisbaer wrote:

Amadeth wrote:

Der_Eisbaer wrote:So what does that mean to your example of some Incredible Sword of WTF-pwnage that one-hit kills everybody? It means that if everybody has to deal with the same difficulties to get it it is of course balanced.

sorry sir, you just failed.
giving one item to all classes in the game is not balanced. let's take a hypothetical sword of wtfpwnage that one-shots every character in the game. Do you claim that if everyone had it, it would be balanced and everyone would stand equal chance against everyone else? Hell man, I think tanks would be the first ones to start crying. I think food chain would look something like this:

stealthers ---> casters ---> tanks

no class would be able to stand up to a stealther which would just sneak up on everybody, one-shotting them. mages would simply CC tanks before striking and tanks... well, you get the point.

ToA wasn't balanced, with more features it just brought more imbalances to the game. I'm not saying alchemy truly is - I just like it.

Hm... basically you are saying that the "true value" of something can vary depending on who gets its hands on it and therefore can lead to imbalances even if everybody has to face the same difficulties in achieving it. I think you are right in that point so saying "everybody has to face the same difficulties" alone is not an argument. Maybe we can agree on the following statement:

If something ingame can be achieved by investing time and ingame ressources its balance / imbalance depends on 1st who can get it and 2nd how one can get it.

Applied to our alchemy problem the 2nd part is balanced because everybody faces the same difficulties in getting its hands on buff potions and charges. About the 1st part we need to think.

exactly.

Gerbald wrote:I am fine with the way charges and potions are handled right now: Left in game, but weaker than they used to be.

Same for me.

So in fact it is you that should explain what you would like to adress and I think we should start the re-iteration right there. Until that is clearified I suggest pausing discussing your thesis.

I meant that self-buff classes are more or less on even ground with enemy players even when fully buffed and the enemy isn't.


Also COME ON Eclipsed, you want to nerf MINSTRELS of all classes?

Krinton3 wrote:

So in fact it is you that should explain what you would like to adress and I think we should start the re-iteration right there. Until that is clearified I suggest pausing discussing your thesis.

I meant that self-buff classes are more or less on even ground with enemy players even when fully buffed and the enemy isn't.

That also was my interpretation when I wrote my text. So I suggest you now to carefully re-read it.

I cannot do more today because I did not sleep that night due to pyrexia and now my head is feeling like it is filled with warm water.