Ive heard that at one point the staff was considering the removal of buffs from potions and charges, but they decided to lower how much you get from a charge and the reuse timer on pots.

Even with this change, it is still possible to have a few buffs, at least 3 or even 4. You just have to carry barrels, and recharge stones and make sure you dont let them run down, as i do on my ranger. But i think since this is a buffbot free server i think it should be considered to totaly remove the buffs from charges and pots.

Why?

Well the classes that can get self buffs, have to spec for them and if you noticed, any class that can get buffs are on a lower damage table and gain less HP per con, compared to classes that do not gain self buffs. And if a class that doesnt get self buffs and is on a low dmg table, like the nightshade, they normaly have skills that can balance that out, like poison debuffs and a dot that can be re-applyed many times if on spare weapons. Also they can PA an opening fight vs a visable. Last night i watched a ns at a gate PA a reaver down to 35% with a fallow up stun. Now i know that isnt allwes going to happen and you may miss your PA, but compared to some self buff classes, a assasin can deal nice dmg to make up for the loss of buffs.

Now a class that gets self buffs, maybe able to spec for a high buff, but they have to spend alot of points to do so, and even then they are on lower dmg tables and hp per con, so what they get from there buffs they speced for vs someone with no self buffs and has charged/pot buffs, will nerf the effectiveness of there buffs they spent pts on. And those who have charged and pot buffs can gain alot more from them, if they are on a good dmg table and hp per con, which is common with non self buff classes, exept casters. I did a little test with a charplanner app to see the effects of 30 str/con pot on a ranger, compared to a blademaster, who is on a higher dmg table and more hp per con and here is what they both get.

Ranger gains 49 piercing WS from 30 str (1.6333 WS per str)
Ranger gains 108 HP from 30 con (3.6 hp per con)

BM gains 59 piercing WS from 30 str (1.9666 WS per str)
BM gains 132 HP from 30 con (4.4 hp per con)

So as you can see, a class that can spec for buffs , gain less from there buffs per unit of stat, compared to some classes that do not gain buffs and gain more per unit of stat. Even without buffs some of these classes alrdy have decent WS and hp, and if they dont then they have some kinda skills that allow them to survive, like poisons or even higher defenses with evade, parry, or block.

So I believe that buffs should be kept to the classes that spec it, and from classes like druids and so on that can share them in a grp. Buff pots and charges are benifiting non buff classes more then anything and should be removed as did buffbots. This will also make Aug RAs more desired and with old RA system will make the pre-req Augs useful.

Now i know there will be many , non self buffing classes, including caster that will not like this suggestion, but remember all your enemys will be weaker, even self buffing classes. My ranger for example will not have extra con and haste, while other enemys will not have extra AF, dex/qui like i have, that i specced for.
______________________________________________________
To give an idea of what all has been talked about in this thread so far, ill give some points , issues and so on that has been and being talked about in this thread.

* A few are claiming that all self buffing classes are given self buffs to be more powerful then non self buffing classes who are not buffed, claiming that these self buffing classes are equal proformance without the buffs.
- But yet each of these self buffing classes suffer at the hands of a lower dmg table and less health per con. Some also suffer with lower defenses, in the case of a ranger / hunter vs a scout, who has access to evade defenses and a anytime 9s stun. Mythic implemented self buffs, not as away to OP these classes, but to make up for there down falls, compared to other classes who cant self buff.

* Another point was made about how mythic implemented charges and alchemy on live, and about how everyone had buffbots.
- but some of these charges and alchemy didnt come into play till later in the game, much later, while self buffs have been here since the start, for most of these classes. Also mythic has a habit of implementing expansion/features to make players spend time, while they make money off of it, with grinding and a second accout to be a bot, that they supported. The more mythic made a feature a requirement, the more likely it is for people to buy into it. That is what uthgard is trying to avoid, by origenaly removing buffbotting from the start.

* Also they talked about how some classes like an assasin, who is also low dmg table, low hp table doesnt gain self buffs and believe it wouldnt be fair to them.
- But what they seem to forget about is that assasins have a better defense then many self buffing classes and have poisons, which can lower there str/con by 118 and a ASD debuff poison of a value of 20 and 40%, and a DOT,Dieases and so on, which if you add that into the fight, along with possible PA/BS , make a unbuffed assasin quiet strong vs self buffed players.

* Someone also talked about how Minstrels and other pet charming classes can charm mobs who share buffs with there master, well it was kinda off topic, but does add to my topic after all.
- Since these classes can charm pets to self buff themself, this makes it a feature of these classes, to gain smaller buffs, over other non self buffing classes, but since we have charges and pots, it makes this feature a little weaker and or un-needed, so they can just get a healing pet or DD pet and have buffs + heal/dd pet, which isnt what you should be doing, you have to choose. But this does give some casting classes a chance to buff.

* Another point made was for all who had worked on alchemy and worked in raids to gain these pots/charged items with buffs.
- But there is alot more in alchemy then stat pots, which are 600 skill max , while if you keep going you get procs and reactives. And for who all that had raided or payed alot for items, should be compensated for there efforts , by replacing these charges with something as desirable, but less required to survive RVR. Self alchemy/charge buffbotting is almost a requirement in RvR these days at 50, and that isnt what uthgard had aimed for. Yes some had worked hard, but for new players or newly lvl 50 char, it makes it unbalaced for them and that should also be kept in mind. If someone is willing to pay tons of money for a charge, that kinda tells you how benificial it is in RVR, and no items should give everyone such leade.

I will add more as i think them up from what all had been discussed.

Your test would have really made more sense with Scout vs Ranger, since they ought to be on the same scale other than self buffing.

I agree that buff pots/charges are really no better than buffbots themselves.

But of course my main is a smite cleric so of course I think this. The difference between running into somebody with full buff charges verssu somebody who isn't is night and day, and it often is the difference between winning and losing. Especially on an assassin.

I would've said yes in a heartbeat before OF, but now I say a firm no.

It's difficult enough to solo now, and we don't need anything else making it more difficult.


Plus, all potions should be removed then: Casters use mana pots all the time, tanks and casters use endo pots for permasprint... it's the same thing as buffs. So no.

Krinton3 wrote:Your test would have really made more sense with Scout vs Ranger, since they ought to be on the same scale other than self buffing.

Yes they are on the same scale, but what i was testing was the diffrence that buffing gives to some classes that are on higher damage tables and higher HP table. yes the scout is on the same table as the ranger, but as i said he gets something extra. The shield, for a better defense and anytime stun or a good block stun. A scout can have 21% evade and 44% block chance without buffs, when a ranger will have only 25% evade with 40 PF Dex/Qui buff of 78 value. So the scout can have better defenses, but yes his evade will be dropped by 50% vs a dual wielder, but not his/her shield. And you know the common tactic with shield slam and critshot/volleying. Without buffs it will make this tactic , not a i win, if its not purged.

Some classes will have it a little harder, but everyone will. Some need to learn better tactics and some may need to buy aug ra's.

and yes , removing charges and pots may make more people run with others, but they do that alrdy because there is no buffbotting. Some may find soloing hard, but without buffs just mean your solo enemy is in the same boat. And you may think, the self buffed soloers maybe harder, well maybe they where a little too easy now. Too often i see some classes get very easy kills, compared to others, and most of the time they are non self buffed classes.

I'll just quote this:

Custom Thread wrote:This is an extremely interesting topic. We had a lot of internal discussions about that and to be honest, my personal plan was to remove all of those statbuff potions and charges. Isn't it paradox to claim we are a buffbot-free server while everyone is playing with liquid pocket-buffbots? However we decided to use 60 seconds as a compromise. Fortunately this almost prevents players from running around fullbuffed all the time.

Zarkor wrote:I'll just quote this:

Custom Thread wrote:This is an extremely interesting topic. We had a lot of internal discussions about that and to be honest, my personal plan was to remove all of those statbuff potions and charges. Isn't it paradox to claim we are a buffbot-free server while everyone is playing with liquid pocket-buffbots? However we decided to use 60 seconds as a compromise. Fortunately this almost prevents players from running around fullbuffed all the time.

Ya it does take time to get buffs, but its not long enough, the time it takes to get to action in OF, even NF is more then enough time to buff up.

Str/Con charge
Str pot
1min later
Dex/Qui charge
Con pot

In one min you can have 4 buffs on you, raising your stats by like more then 150, then what you are without.

question is

only charges?
only alch stuff?
both?

btw id hate to loose my charges which is the only reason for using some of the items I use atm and that I have worked very very very hard for (body necklace farming for a loooooooong time etc.)


However alchemy buffs can be bought by anyone for a few 100g

Well i believe both , charges and buffs from items and alchemy should be removed. I believe mythic intended some classes to have buffs and others dont, unless in grp situations. But over time, like normaly mythic lost touch with that and made many changes to support buffs, by increasing pot buff values, adding more items with buff charges, and classes like the vampire that has buffs stats alrdy. For a true classic experience, i believe mythic didnt intend every single person to be buffed. Unless they wanted to feed mythic with money for a buffbot.

And yes i do see an issue with people that had worked hard for that necklace, but if the uthgard staff thinks this would be a better choice for classic game play, they shouldnt let such things tie them down. Same thing with if they wanted to remove SI classes because they thought they are not part of classic game play. Many had leveled a SI class up, but whats more importent, the servers respect to being classic or tieing themself down, to not upset some people. Im sure the staff can think up some way to make up for peoples hard work.

The devs, staff and the one paying for the server are the ones that put the work into the server, and should make the choice, and not feel trapped because of players that had worked hard for an item or lvling up a char. If the staff/dev wants to compansate those who did work hard, they can , but shouldnt be required too.

Nothing directed at you nix, im just saying for everyone that worked hard for such items, and that i dont think it should make the server freeze in time because of the hard work.

If everyone benefits the same from not having them, then everyone benefits the same from having them.

And your list is kinda wrong, having one self buff doesn't mean much. You can still get all other buffs via potions, get haste, or get just spec buffs that you're missing. Plus primary buffing classes shouldn't even be listed.

well its not equal with buffed charges and pots, because the ones that dont get self buffs, benifits more with the buffs, compared to some with self buffs. By removing them, everyone does benifit in away. Some that are a little weaker, will become more balanced, ones that can kill someone easy, will be more balanced without the buffs, but still be able to compete since most of there enemys will be in the same boat.

And a single self buff does count, because its Str/con, that means more dmg and health. Most classes that get str/con, dont get anything else, and those who get more then one buff, dont get str/con buff, exept the buffer classes.

And buffer classes do count, because buffer classes can solo, if they are fully buffed with some damage, will make a big diffrance vs an enemy that isnt buffed at all. Will not be easy, but should be possible. Not there ideal role, but because it makes there buffs more effective, Puts them in this list.

But i understand i will not be able to change someone mind, if they are focused on the negitive of such a change. Buffs for a non specing buff class is a luxery, that some dont want to lose.

Nymeros wrote:If everyone benefits the same from not having them, then everyone benefits the same from having them.

Beside that you have to put in gold and time to rebuff and that buff classes are less worth.

ya it does cost to buy recharge stones, and barrels of pot buffs, but after killing enough enemys, youl have enough BP and gold to rebuy when you run out, well so far on my ranger with str/con, con, and haste buffs , i normaly dont have to dig into my own costs, well sometimes but that is when its really dead out.

So removing the charges and pot buffs, will allow player to run without them, since there enemys will not have them too, making it cheaper to rvr. Also allows classes that can spec buffs, to spec for lower buffs and still be effective, while they spread there pts out a little more.

i have chars on almost all ends of the spectrum and honestly, i dont consider them "too much" but i wouldnt want to walk around without some of them.

in pve its pretty basic. either you have a buff char and get those tasty strong buffs or you dont. well, we arent really overrun with support classes, in fact, finding one within +/- 10 level can kill groups at any given time of the day.
do you really care about wether or not a class that no one wants in a group (mostly because they just dont get the value) can buff itself on the expense of time, money, inventory space and weight?
i dont. they have it hard enough.

would i vote for taking out instant mana and manareg when i go farming cash to supply my 3 crafters and 6 chars who all want a sc and sometimes pretty expensive items somewhere along the way?
NO!

my ranger doesnt benefit as much as others since he is designed to be as strong with buffs then others without.

well, go fullspec weapons/cd, drop PF and use potions/charges - that should even that out^^

yes, a high dex infi/sb will beat the crap out of me if he uses dex/quick and dex, simply because i cant hit him.

if he gets the jump on me, im dead due to PA damage, evade 7 with incradible high dex and poisons/debuffs.

if i get the jump on him, hes most likely dead due to his missing PA damage and my higher meele damage, AF selfbuff and damage add, plus i can dish out a couple hundret damage while hes stunned.

would i stand a better chance against sbs/infis if there where no potions? probably.
would i stand a better chance overall? would my RP/time cratio go up?
no way, it would drop since my possible prey shrinks to a target thats always in a group and even if solo, has plenty of options to disable me and kill me before i even break their damn bubble.

comparing to an off or fulltank?
what do i care^^ let them run around solo until they are broke, if you jump a tank just because hes solo and lose, thats your problem.
if you dont watch him and hes pumping potions/charges while out of your sight, you fight without knowing your enemy.
also considering the fact that he might have the option, wageing if you can take him on even IF hes buffed is your job, not that of the system.

i like having the choice.
i like having the option to go toe to toe with a merc, even if he has a anytime stun, even if he might be buffed/charged up to the neck himself. i can still choose wether or not i attack him and depending on my approach, skill and RAs i might have the possibility to win. depending on his, i might not, even if I am buffed to the neck.

as a sidenote, rangers are kinda handycapped.
you cant stand forever withing sightrange of enemies. sooner or laer you will have to rebuff.
while the selfbuffs last 20 mins and give you a fair chance to be in and out a given situation, the potions/charges last 10 mins. in agramon that was no big deal since the action never lasted more then it took to walk from the porter to the milegate. same for bgs.

in the OF setting, staying hidden is much much more important.
you never know who is following you, waiting for a good chance, and especially for rangers, the moment they have to rebuff within a dangerzone (which in OF can be anywhere, not just the agra like hotspots) are the moments you will most likely get jumped.
and you have to take that risk more often and in shorter timespans if you use potions.
and all those who are after us rangers dont have to take that risk to be on paar. they are good as it is. if their potions are up, good for them, if not and your buffs run out, they win out anyway.

my potions often run out just when i finally get a crack on that sb i case around his mates anyway. should i really pull back to rebuff and case him down all over again?
i just go for it.
if the situation is to my advantage, wether my potions are active or not is not that important. while raised statts can give me and edge, getting the right moment to attack outweights that usually.
if the moment is bad, all the potions and charges you can get wont help you.

also the more barrels you carry, the more likely you are to be encumbered when debuffed/sheared. and then whos laughing.
and do a vaultcheck every third wipe to restock on bottles is not an option either.

if you really wanna go classic and basic, remember that the only thing you "might" be able to kill with your atm pretty strong stealther classes are mages. nothing else. and those only with luck/help.

no more fighting everything and winning 90% of the time. no more oh look, theres a solo tank/hybrid, free arpee!
no more "im walking right into that group, kill the sorc, then the theurg and with a litle luck, take that caba down."
you get one shot. thats it.
because everything besides you is most likely to have buffs and outrank you by far.


stealther -> mage -> tank -> stealther.

short end of the stick.


as a group char? i dont char either. i have my buffs and if the conc is gone i buff the rest myself. full buffed/charged up infis? either they go for me and i have a druid behind me, or they go for the druid and i slam them and let them have a taste of good old steel.


in any case, i consider potions/charges an improvment.


as a sidenote, buff classes arent useless.
by that judgement there wouldnt have been buffbots on live with alchemy.
buff chars just buff so much better^^


PS:
i planned on a maybe four to seven sentences reply but with every re-read, its didnt seem definitiv enough, so i kept adding.
structure is bad, grammar to and you can keep the spelling errors.
you get the basic idea.

taking out potions is taking out a part of the fun, pvp as awell as pve.


i want to keep my alchy, even while every char of mine runs around with 8 barrels, just to be prepared, while most never get used.
i still have a damage shield barrel i made for my tank when he was 20. its 50 for a good while now and the barrel still has 74 charges, but i keep it anyway, you never know. i cant carry a ram because of all my barrels...
but i might just need them :)




EDIT:

Eclipsed wrote:So removing the charges and pot buffs, will allow player to run without them, since there enemys will not have them too, making it cheaper to rvr. Also allows classes that can spec buffs, to spec for lower buffs and still be effective, while they spread there pts out a little more.

thats an apple to pear assumption which requires that if one thing is true, the opposite is automaticly false.

"if it wouldnt rain over the ocean the water would be dry" matches that pretty well. yeah i just made that up. sounds just pretty good, doesnt it^^


on that part you are quite wrong.

having certain levels of buffs has not in the slighest to do with potions or no potions and people wont be able to "spec for lower buffs" and "spread out their skillpoints"

there are specific specs that work on different levels and lowlevel buffs dont cut it in lvl 50 pve/pvp/rvr, wether there are are potions or not.
crappy buffs are crappy buffs and bigger is better, that was, is and always will be true for buffs.
have you actually every played OF live at those times?
you know, the times where there was no alchemy. then the time where there was alchemy. then the time there were buffbots. then the time there where ML/CL10 full arte buffbots.
acutally im sure with the widespread of buffbots alchemy degraded to endu/mana refreshment in terms of potions produced and sold.
and with the shrines even they became obsolete in most cirumstances.

Yes, pots and charges gives your ranger the option to go with a lower PF spec, and removing these pots and charges will lower your stats, but since it also lowers your enemy, the outcome should be the same for your buffs. And your point of views are your play style, like finding a spot to rebuff...... i have not even been jumped when i had to rebuff, out there at a wall or in the open of a hot spot. Find a tree, a hill side and so on, its not to hard. But anyway, i used a calc to give everyone.. on hib an idea of what there stats will look like, if there is no buffed pots/charges. Now keep in mind, what each of these classes get, like armor type, skills and so on, and that youl prob have old ra's to work with, soon on uthgard.

____________________________________________________________

Bard
____________________
-Buffs-
Str = 62
Con = 55
Dex = 60

50+11 Blade = 1083 WS
HP = 1525
Evade = 16%
Block = 14%

Blademaster
____________________
-No Buffs-

50+11 Blade = 1264 WS
HP = 1579
Evade = 20%
Block = 42% (42+11 spec)
Parry = 34% (26+11 spec)

Champion
____________________
-Buffs-
50 spec Str/Con = 93

50+11 Large Weapons = 1387
HP = 1674
Evade = 10%
Block = 23% (6+11 spec)
Parry = 34% (28+11 spec)

Druid
____________________
-Buffs-
34 Buff line spec

Str = 62
Con = 55
Dex = 60
Str/con = 68
Dex/Qui = 74
Haste = 15%

290 str as celt , unknown WS
HP = 1798
Block = 20%

Hero
____________________
-No Buffs-

50+11 Celtic Spear = 1264 WS
HP = 1755
Evade = 10%
Block = 41% (42+11)
Parry = 40% (39+11)

Nightshade
____________________
-No Buffs-

50+11 Piercing = 985 WS
HP = 1208
Evade = 42%

Ranger
____________________
-Buffs-
42 PF spec

str = 51
Dex/Qui = 78
AF = 80

34+11 Piercing = 1068 WS
40+11 Recurve Bow = 1463 WS
HP = 1278
Evade = 25%

Valewalker
____________________
-No Buffs-

50+11 Scythe = 1207 WS
HP = 1327
Evade = 24%
Parry = 32% (26+11 spec)

Warden
____________________
Str = 62
Con = 55
Dex = 60
Haste = 34%

50+11 Blade = 1126 WS
HP = 1490
Block = 19% (0 spec)
Parry = 34% (20+11 spec)

Casters
********************

Animist
____________________
-No Buffs-

HP = 1101
Caster Stat = 281
Cast Speed = 155 (14.25%)

Eldritch
____________________
-No Buffs-

HP = 988
Caster Stat = 281
Cast Speed = 183 (18.45%)

Enchanter
____________________
-No Buffs-

HP = 988
Caster Stat = 281
Cast Speed = 183 (18.45%)

Mentalist
____________________
-No Buffs-

HP = 988
Caster Stat = 281
Cast Speed = 183 (18.45%)

There will be a few errors in this, but its just to give you the basic idea. As you can see, most classes that get self buffs, can get decent WS, compared to others, but almost equal to non buffed players, and if they have low WS, they have better skills or more HP or better armor and so on to make up for it.