kikoo wrote:

Artefact wrote:
come to play on hib

by playing a druid/bard or caster.

you'll see what we mean

Druid -> iroot
Bard -> imezz
Caster -> stun
Savage -> no charge

I see what you mean.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Druid -> Iroot -> if nature spec and for something like 2sec for savage under deter5, anyway without buffbot there isn't any nature spec on uth.

Bard imez -> 5sec max duration on a det5

Caster -> Stun -> 0.1 sec duration on deter5

Sauvage -> Nocharge -> HOPEFULLY !!!!!


You should play a bit more kikoo and not on mid ;p

Artefact wrote:LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Druid -> Iroot -> if nature spec and for something like 2sec for savage under deter5, anyway without buffbot there isn't any nature spec on uth.

Bard imez -> 5sec max duration on a det5

Caster -> Stun -> 0.1 sec duration on deter5

0.1 sec? I'd be curious to know how you computed this value.

Artefact wrote:Sauvage -> Nocharge -> HOPEFULLY !!!!!

I wasn't complaining about the absence of charge, I was merely pointing out that savages are CCable. Det reduces CC duration, it does not prevent it. And to retake your argument about druid, I'd say "If det5".

Artefact wrote:You should play a bit more kikoo and not on mid ;p

Nah, I'm too much used to Mid now, and too old to change. If I'd join Hib now, I would automatically try to attack the bard each time I'd see "inc" in the group chat.

unable wrote:[offtopic] WTB QC on healer [/offtopic]

Come play a healer for me

Wait.. what?

You get either insta stun or insta mezz, you can choose which one you want to cast after u used the insta and you're trying to say you need a quickcast..?


Uhh... ok.




About the Hib CC vs savages, you managed to pick out the most useless Hib CC there is.


Hib caster stun.. lol yea if you want to give it 1 min immunity to slam, sure you can stun him for max. 2 secs.

Druid instant root... high nature spec, 'nuff said. Single casted root would be more realistic and useful.

Bard instant mezz... Using instant anything on det tanks is just throwing it away and giving them a nice little immunity with it.



The only way you're going to stop or slow down a savage decently is with disease + snare + slam, that is if you manage to pull that off. (+evade% anyone? )


Anyway, I'd say either Alb or Hib would be a reasonable choice.

Zarkor wrote:About the Hib CC vs savages, you managed to pick out the most useless Hib CC there is.

Those were mere examples to explain there's several ways to CC the "unstoppable" savage. Thanks for providing additionnal ones, though (disease, snare, casted root and even slam, although bard/druid/casters can hardly enjoy this feature).

kikoo wrote:

Zarkor wrote:About the Hib CC vs savages, you managed to pick out the most useless Hib CC there is.

Those were mere examples to explain there's several ways to CC the "unstoppable" savage. Thanks for providing additionnal ones, though (disease, snare, casted root and even slam, although bard/druid/casters can hardly enjoy this feature).

I think everyone knows they can be CCed, that they're not 'unstoppable' but that doesn't mean that their dmg output+det5/stoic is not over the top.

Maidrion wrote:I think everyone knows they can be CCed, that they're not 'unstoppable' but that doesn't mean that their dmg output+det5/stoic is not over the top.

When I joined the forum on April, I clearly remember Hibs were dominating, and Albs were the underdog. LWRPs page was green just like it was blue recently. There was nobody back then who complained about savage's deal, or SM's pet intercept rate, which were exactly the same as today.

How objective is that? As sure as Mids perform currently very well, this will change. It always changes. When X-realmers will get bored, they'll move to another realm and so on. There's no reason to QQ about classes that perform as well as they did when Mid was under-performing.

Greetings Timx,

As previous post stated, the realm most activity change every now and then.
Hence choosing what realm now would be perfect for your need might appear once you reached 50 and few RR suddenly the wrong choice.

However, we are far from live concerning the rvr situation, we could even say that Uthgard got his own climate concerning this, and the best would be take the temperature first before drawing some plan, and before you can have a non biased opinion, or even anything but flame/flood, we might be in 2010.

Now, Artefact, as a Moderator i would think that your job was to, moderate, and not putting oil on fire.

Sincerely,
Pirith.

kikoo wrote:

Maidrion wrote:I think everyone knows they can be CCed, that they're not 'unstoppable' but that doesn't mean that their dmg output+det5/stoic is not over the top.

When I joined the forum on April, I clearly remember Hibs were dominating, and Albs were the underdog. LWRPs page was green just like it was blue recently. There was nobody back then who complained about savage's deal, or SM's pet intercept rate, which were exactly the same as today.

How objective is that? As sure as Mids perform currently very well, this will change. It always changes. When X-realmers will get bored, they'll move to another realm and so on. There's no reason to QQ about classes that perform as well as they did when Mid was under-performing.

I believe u play mid so believe me when I say ppl complained about savages back then aswell, they just were not as common in RvR as they are now. I don't like to see them tuned down because mids are topping the charts atm because, like you said, I know well enough what hib and mid are capable of.
You talk about objectivity. Well the sheer strength of savages is objective enough for me.

kikoo wrote:There was nobody back then who complained about savage's deal, or SM's pet intercept rate, which were exactly the same as today.

Heh, maybe in Mid there wasn't, but there sure as hell was in Hib and I'm confident there's been similar complains on the Alb side aswell.

It's just that people who are playing on this server for a while now are realising that dev's keep shutting their eyes for balance problems like these and a lot of players have given up discussing about it because the general impression the dev's give is: "Custom -> No way this will ever happen, ever.". Without giving a damn about actual balance (custom or not).


Sadly this cancels out any form of improvement and slowly but surely sucks the player's intention to help improve the server dry. Soon enough will the newer players grow tired of the no-custom policy aswell and remain quiet about the flaws (by Mythic or the dev's, nobody cares who made the mistake, what people care about is what's incorrect and what can be done better!) in the gameplay. Occasionally they'll see a new thread popping up here and there by the newest players, only to see it shot down by the dev's over and over again.

The longer you play here the more and more you get demotivated to help make this server provide the game 'Classic DAoC' should and even can still be today, since in the end there's only a handful of people deciding where it all goes. Apparently they seem to have set their boundaries, whether (we think) it's the best path to follow or not.

A lot of people are tired of this approach, however it did manage to create the best DAoC freeshard 'till this day.


The question is, do the dev's want to take it to the next level?
..So far the answer has been "No way.".

kikoo wrote:Druid -> iroot
Bard -> imezz
Caster -> stun
Savage -> no charge

I see what you mean.

Instas/caster stun on stoi+det5 tanks. Brilliant.

Please, go RvR a bit and come back when you have some clue before writing such cr*p.

Funkling wrote:Instas/caster stun on stoi+det5 tanks. Brilliant.

Please, go RvR a bit and come back when you have some clue before writing such cr*p.

You broke my heart. Please accept this as compensation.

lets stay realistic at all points.
det5+stoic:
55 +20 = 75, so 75% CC reduction from rr4l4 onwards.
26% resi(if we take it that the mids overslept rebuff-time and are running without their red/yellow shammy-buffs and blue-yellow healerbuffs).

cc duration = (basevalue)*0,74*0,25[it doesnt matter if you decrease resis first or det/stoi, simple mathematics, trust me]= 0,185
So a tank usually stops for max 18,5% of the spells value.

caststun 9sec: 1,665 sec(if youve got around 300 dex, youll be casting your spell about the same speed as the tank will be stunned for)

mezz 80 sec(only available at sorc? from casual mezzers at least): 14,8 sec.

root 73 seconds(i dont know of any longer ones): 13,505 seconds. Half of that time the tank is rooted and the other half snared. So its roughly 6,75 seconds root and 6,75 seconds snare.

If you have the guts to argue vs simple mathematics, you gotta be the next Einstein with an other relative theory of relativity.
Ofcourse if you convert these natural numbers into complex ones, youll have different values, but daoc is not written in complex numbers, so its completely useless.


Now, what is the difference between a savage and a normal offtank?
I dont have a slightest idea, cuz normal tanks hit you for 40-70 dmg offhand depending on that one offhand they are using, and 100-200 dmg mainhand, depending on weapon and style they use as mainhand, IF they hit a moderate target(reinforced/chain armor without many maluses and good sc) with a good combatspeed(1,5-2,0 seconds). A savage hits any target for around 200 dmg mainhand and 100+ dmg offhand. This is the result of selfhaste that catapults a savage from roughly 4 sec combatspeed up to capspeed. A savages basedmg stayes stable but their styledmg gets reduced very hard because of those hastes. And so, the only remaining quest is as to why is a savages basedmg so much higher than that of an offtank, even though a savage is considered a hybrid and an offtank, a tank with only second to warriors basedmg.

But since GMs and Admins say, that the savage is OK, then players dont have any other choice but to log to twinks as soon as mids come to agra having 2-3 savages in their mighty groups, since its no use fighting em anyway. A savage can be pinned down for 9(slam)+13,5(root)+14,8(mezz) seconds max, out of 1 minute(37,3/60), but on the other hand, 6 seconds(5 hits) are enough for a savage to kill any targer, so in the remaining 12,7 seconds a savage can easily kill at least 1 player(9 hits, between 1800 dmg if only 1-hits no duals, tripples or quads, without dmgadd, and 5220 dmg if each hit quads, with a 20 dmg per hit dmgadd, without crits). You can always add some more dmg, with crits(mastery of pain).

Id like you to show me an offtank that can top 2000 dmg in 12 seconds on a moderate target, or at least a caster.

PS for all those savage-lovers. Ive just stated some facts taken from the previous savage-threads on this forum, several of you were eagerly participating at, and calculated some easy maths.


OOH DAMN!!! that was so much offtopic....

If you have some guts to play a hard game, earn your points, get your equipment, go to alb or hib. If you want to play a usefull class, youll be taken in groups there.

If you want to have an easy game, no challemge, killing solos with fgs, barely enemies, and most rps in endgamervr, in case you manage to find enemies, go mid and play a savage. But be ready that the enemy will logg off after beeing run over 1-2 times by your groups.

you just greatly well explain what I was lazy to do.

Anyway I'll add one thing.

When I play my bm det5 with yellow resist and then I get CCed, the CC is most of the time FADDING at the moment when I get it ... so you can decrease you cc time on your calcul for many of them.

Satz wrote:lets stay realistic at all points.
det5+stoic:
55 +20 = 75, so 75% CC reduction from rr4l4 onwards.
26% resi(if we take it that the mids overslept rebuff-time and are running without their red/yellow shammy-buffs and blue-yellow healerbuffs).

cc duration = (basevalue)*0,74*0,25[it doesnt matter if you decrease resis first or det/stoi, simple mathematics, trust me]= 0,185
So a tank usually stops for max 18,5% of the spells value.

caststun 9sec: 1,665 sec(if youve got around 300 dex, youll be casting your spell about the same speed as the tank will be stunned for)

mezz 80 sec(only available at sorc? from casual mezzers at least): 14,8 sec.

root 73 seconds(i dont know of any longer ones): 13,505 seconds. Half of that time the tank is rooted and the other half snared. So its roughly 6,75 seconds root and 6,75 seconds snare.

If you have the guts to argue vs simple mathematics, you gotta be the next Einstein with an other relative theory of relativity.
Ofcourse if you convert these natural numbers into complex ones, youll have different values, but daoc is not written in complex numbers, so its completely useless.


Now, what is the difference between a savage and a normal offtank?
I dont have a slightest idea, cuz normal tanks hit you for 40-70 dmg offhand depending on that one offhand they are using, and 100-200 dmg mainhand, depending on weapon and style they use as mainhand, IF they hit a moderate target(reinforced/chain armor without many maluses and good sc) with a good combatspeed(1,5-2,0 seconds). A savage hits any target for around 200 dmg mainhand and 100+ dmg offhand. This is the result of selfhaste that catapults a savage from roughly 4 sec combatspeed up to capspeed. A savages basedmg stayes stable but their styledmg gets reduced very hard because of those hastes. And so, the only remaining quest is as to why is a savages basedmg so much higher than that of an offtank, even though a savage is considered a hybrid and an offtank, a tank with only second to warriors basedmg.

But since GMs and Admins say, that the savage is OK, then players dont have any other choice but to log to twinks as soon as mids come to agra having 2-3 savages in their mighty groups, since its no use fighting em anyway. A savage can be pinned down for 9(slam)+13,5(root)+14,8(mezz) seconds max, out of 1 minute(37,3/60), but on the other hand, 6 seconds(5 hits) are enough for a savage to kill any targer, so in the remaining 12,7 seconds a savage can easily kill at least 1 player(9 hits, between 1800 dmg if only 1-hits no duals, tripples or quads, without dmgadd, and 5220 dmg if each hit quads, with a 20 dmg per hit dmgadd, without crits). You can always add some more dmg, with crits(mastery of pain).

Id like you to show me an offtank that can top 2000 dmg in 12 seconds on a moderate target, or at least a caster.

PS for all those savage-lovers. Ive just stated some facts taken from the previous savage-threads on this forum, several of you were eagerly participating at, and calculated some easy maths.


OOH DAMN!!! that was so much offtopic....

If you have some guts to play a hard game, earn your points, get your equipment, go to alb or hib. If you want to play a usefull class, youll be taken in groups there.

If you want to have an easy game, no challemge, killing solos with fgs, barely enemies, and most rps in endgamervr, in case you manage to find enemies, go mid and play a savage. But be ready that the enemy will logg off after beeing run over 1-2 times by your groups.

Simple mathematics, I'll agree with you on those.

However, simple DAoC facts tell us that stoic is 25% CC reduction instead of 20%. ^^

And the fact that you simply added the 25% of Stoi ontop of the 55% of Determination is wrong.Its 1*0,45*0,75 and not 1*0,2.Still,most CCs won´t last longer than 12 Seconds on a Stoi char with Det5.