Uthgard • View topic - The Critshot Change

The Critshot Change

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TheRat Myrmidon Posts: 114 Joined: Jun 01, 2009 00:00	by TheRat » Jul 11, 2009 01:17 Seyha wrote:I've seen assassins get away with using vanish lots of times. It will work against any character without MoS. Go to where you saw them last, look around in the area and you will find them when vanish wears off in 2 seconds. Kill them, they cannot hit you back anymore. No more assassin. If an assasin gets away from you (whether or not you have MoS) I don't know what to tell you. It's just too easy. Vanish is a waste. Seyha wrote:Being able to escape from a fight is not an advantage. Escaping does not earn you RP. It may preserve your ego, but in reality you're just wasting time. Death is not permanent, so having to /release is fine so long as you make RP in the process. There is no comparison in this between assassins and archers. It can earn you more RP if you don't have to /release and run all the way back out because someone else may happen by that you can kill. Agramon is a long run. The time wasted running is time spent not getting RPs. Seyha wrote:And please do not group real archers with Rangers. Most Rangers on Uthgard are not archers. They do not make their living with their bow. For them the bow is a toy they use to augment their melee ability, or for when they get rooted/snared. Most Rangers I know happily walk around mile gates with camo down just begging for a melee fight. Their bow damage is great--better than a Hunter's--but they don't need to use it to win. Just because not all of the rangers play this way does not mean there are not some who are archers. It's plenty viable for them. I was an archer specced ranger for a long time on live. I got plenty of kills that way. So, what is your point? Seyha wrote:Give an example. Mercenaries, Valewalkers, Friars, Reavers... You avoid having to be hit by dirty tricks (if you shoot at max range you can bring one down), Valewalkers can't use the scythe until they close, which is where most of their damage comes from. Friars have no ranged capacity whatsoever, but an Assassin is hard pressed to kill one because they hit like a truck. Reavers can't slam, levi, levi, levi when you are at a distance. Those classes are all difficult to kill for an assassin, even if PA is landed! Once they are in melee range, the difficulty to beat one increases by a lot. Seyha wrote:How is this a fix to my class? "Fix" implies that something was broken, or that my class was OP and needed to be balanced. Of course this is a nerf! This is not a live server. This is not 2002. Adhering to this ridiculous dogma of authenticity even if it means breaking an already gimped class is edit: silly. This change will drive more players to roll melee spec Rangers while Scouts and Hunters become even more inactive. Then complain about the acutal problem you perceive - that bow damage is too low, not that you can no longer use broken crit shot to hit moving targets. Believe it or not when NF was introduced the RAs were finally balanced and the archers got all the goodies like volley and rapid fire as part of spec. That is the way it is on Uthgard. If damage is too low, concentrate on that and ask for it to be fixed, but I have NO sympathy for complaints that crit shot does not hit moving targets when it NEVER worked that way on live.

Fortyseven Forum Moderator Posts: 643 Joined: Apr 01, 2009 00:00 Location: V.N. Milfontes, PT	by Fortyseven » Jul 11, 2009 02:02 Agreed, critshots are meant for stationary (standing, casting, sitting, WALKING but not fighting or running) targets. It did need a fix to be what Mythic intended. However, consider my example of a solo scout: You sit on the mile wall, waiting for 10 minutes until you find a solo target. Chances are, that solo target is of a class that's at least half-decent in solo combat. He's running and he has no intention to stop (why would he give you a free critshot?). You're stealthed, line up your critshot and fire, only to find yourself in one of 3 situations: It hits, crit is applied cause for some reason the target DID stop to cast or whatever. Yay, some damage (uuh, ok, 500-600dmg hits aren't uncommon, but don't forget about abs% and PD on the tougher cookies out there). It hits, but crit is negated so you do half the potential damage. Woow, Jackpot. 250-300 dmg (again, against non-tanks - mmh, is that it? Where's the rest of it? goes looking for damage) Archer's bestest friend: Bladeturn. I don't even want to talk about that one cause every time I think about it, it enrages me more Now, all those times that you're lucky and no other stealthers are around watching you shoot that guy (they always decide to stab the scout ) it's still gonna be tough. There is NO WAY you'll kill a melee class before he gets to you... if he has the slightest idea of what he's doing. This is where the mighty shield comes into play only... what's this, 220 dex unbuffed, 42+15 shield, MoB1 and he blocks... hardly anything. Strange. Still one slim hope: Slam. Oh, if it hits that is (meh, low weapon skill ftl). 9s of pure VOLLEY OWNAGE... oh no, wait, there's still purge (5s delay gives me time for ONE arrow after slam, but go for purge 2 and you're safe). And that's when you die. Casters, well, MoC is a pain, so is bladeturn and pet casters are a general no-go if you're on your own, but you can kill em every now and then. Supporters are good targets too if you're sure you can beat the life out of a druid for 3 solid minutes (btw, how can he block more than me? that ain't right, is it?) and not be zerged in the process cause after he's out of instants and the stun immunity is down for the second time you will be able to kill him eventually (if you didn't decide on a 50 lb spec, that is). I don't mean to sound whiny, but the scout was hard enough to play even with the 'semi-intentional' extra damage. As Nayru stated, the situation will be different but you might notice that it's mostly hunters and scouts that write in this thread because, like me, they've all been waiting for little improvements for too long and have now had their lives complicated further. Summarising, archers (with a bow as their PRIMARY damage source) need all the help they can get! Sorry about writing a novel, but those are this scout's 5 cents.

Seyha Phoenix Knight Posts: 1726 Joined: Apr 25, 2009 00:00 Location: Schadenfreude City, USA	by Seyha » Jul 11, 2009 02:25 TheRat wrote:Go to where you saw them last, look around in the area and you will find them when vanish wears off in 2 seconds... If an assasin gets away from you (whether or not you have MoS)... Assassins don't become visible after the detection immunity from Vanish wears off. A stealther can easily vanish and move out of the detection range of a non-MoS character. I see it happen all the time. I'm sure other assassins can back me up on this. It can earn you more RP if you don't have to /release and run all the way back out because someone else may happen by that you can kill. Agramon is a long run. The time wasted running is time spent not getting RPs. None of this matters if you can not kill a target in the first place. To have any chance of winning I must begin melee combat with my opponent at <40% hp if it is an assassin, or <30% if it is some kind of tank, hybrid, or a Ranger. That is just to have a chance at winning! I used to be able to achieve this by opening with a Crit, and then beating them down with a Volley. Now that I can't open any time with a Crit my opponents will be reaching me with 40-60% of their hp. I can not win against those odds. Just because not all of the rangers play this way does not mean there are not some who are archers. It's plenty viable for them. I was an archer specced ranger for a long time on live. I got plenty of kills that way. So, what is your point? My point, above all else, is that this is not live. Your experience there does not transfer to Uthgard. My second point is that to say archers are balanced because "Rangers can do X and kill Y" is not fair to Scouts and Hunters. Yes, the difference in ability between the three classes really is that bad. Mercenaries, Valewalkers, Friars, Reavers... Mercs: They have charge, and they can take out a shield and engage me. If my speed shout is down I will get caught in seconds. Otherwise I can kite, but a wise Merc will just run away and end the combat. Without charge they are probably screwed. Valewalkers: This is almost suicide for me. They will cast insta-dot to interrupt my bow and break my speed shout, and then insta-snare to catch me. Without purge I can't even escape. Easy RPs for the VW. Friars: Ranged taunt can interrupt my bow, but I agree these can only kill me if I let them catch me. Reavers: No. Shield + Insta-dot + insta life-tap makes these almost impossible to kill. I could do it with a lot of kiting, but only if the Reaver allows himself to be kited. Note that all of these classes are even harder now with the change to crit shot. Then complain about the acutal problem you perceive - that bow damage is too low, not that you can no longer use broken crit shot to hit moving targets. Believe it or not when NF was introduced the RAs were finally balanced and the archers got all the goodies like volley and rapid fire as part of spec. That is the way it is on Uthgard. If damage is too low, concentrate on that and ask for it to be fixed, but I have NO sympathy for complaints that crit shot does not hit moving targets when it NEVER worked that way on live. How would they balance increasing bow damage against volley? If they increased base damage by 30% that would make crit shot worth it, but Volley would be way OP. The Devs would have to tweak each ability with custom changes. That wouldn't be authentic at all. Bow was balanced very well with the any-time crit shot. Archers had good any time damage without making volley a kill-anything ability. Now archers have taken a huge and unnecessary hit to any-time dps. So how about trying that sympathy thing again?

Nayru Developer Posts: 8834 Joined: Jan 08, 2007 01:00	by Nayru » Jul 11, 2009 04:50 [11.07.2009] - Bugfix: Removed stealth requirement from the Critshot ability - Bugfix: Corrected the target moving requirement for the Critshot ability - Bugfix: Corrected the target incombat requirement for the Critshot ability - Bugfix: Critshots can now be fired several times. If the requirements do not match a regular shot will be fired.

Seyha Phoenix Knight Posts: 1726 Joined: Apr 25, 2009 00:00 Location: Schadenfreude City, USA	by Seyha » Jul 11, 2009 08:00 Thank you, Nayru.

Amadeth Eagle Knight Posts: 731 Joined: Apr 18, 2009 00:00 Location: Zagreb, Croatia	by Amadeth » Jul 11, 2009 09:43 i just have to comment on two things, from experience. TheRat wrote: Seyha wrote:I've seen assassins get away with using vanish lots of times. It will work against any character without MoS. Go to where you saw them last, look around in the area and you will find them when vanish wears off in 2 seconds. Kill them, they cannot hit you back anymore. No more assassin. If an assasin gets away from you (whether or not you have MoS) I don't know what to tell you. It's just too easy. Vanish is a waste. sorry but this is absolute BS. in the last 10 fights that I've had my target vanish, only once or twice did I manage to find the assassin and finish him off. this has nothing to do with skill. even when I walk over the assassin and he appears on my screen for two-tenths of a second, it's still not enough for me to do anything to pop him out of stealth. perhaps you've been facing some weird assassins that didn't spec in stealth TheRat wrote: Seyha wrote:Give an example. Mercenaries, Valewalkers, Friars, Reavers... You avoid having to be hit by dirty tricks (if you shoot at max range you can bring one down), Valewalkers can't use the scythe until they close, which is where most of their damage comes from. Friars have no ranged capacity whatsoever, but an Assassin is hard pressed to kill one because they hit like a truck. Reavers can't slam, levi, levi, levi when you are at a distance. Those classes are all difficult to kill for an assassin, even if PA is landed! Once they are in melee range, the difficulty to beat one increases by a lot. I am sorry, but this is again another bunch of nonsense. Seyha already commented on this, but I must add you have probably named some of the WORST classes for an archer to attack. Merc - a TANK class with CHARGE and possibly a SHIELD. please, share your archer strategy against a mercenary with the rest of us. all those archers must be doing something terribly wrong! VW - instacast DoT and snare for interruption. then they can either run up to you or lifetap first to get their health back and just wtfpwn you in melee (or keep lifetapping lol). don't forget evade 4 Friar - a fully buffed class with evade 5 that can probably even toss a heal in between your shots. he'll run to you before you know it and drop you even with less than 50% hp left Reavers - this is actually the biggest lol. /face, engage with shield, /dance, DoT rupt, run up to you, slam, leviapwn. anyway, I'm glad critshot has been restored. and no, I don't play an archer, I face them. <strong>FIX TEH PROFILE PAGE SO I CAN CHANGE MY SIG PLZ</strong>

hun_cactus Myrmidon Posts: 171 Joined: Jul 03, 2006 00:00	by hun_cactus » Jul 11, 2009 12:41 Amadeth wrote:I am sorry, but this is again another bunch of nonsense. Indeed, but i think better to ask a question then give an explanation. Why anybody think his/her class HAVE to able to kill any other class in the game in 1v1? <img src="http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3213/signzzx.jpg"border="0" />

Satz Alerion Knight Posts: 1860 Joined: Jun 21, 2005 00:00 Location: Albion	by Satz » Jul 11, 2009 13:02 Hmm.... because any assassin can kill any other class in 1vs1, if he/she specs viper3? I was running a little solo yesterday.... Fulltank aproximately 1800hps with s/c potions. Getting shot by a hunter: first hit, -250hp, second engage, third engage, then im at the hunter, 3-5 hits and hes dead, same goes for scout and ranger, if they dont purge slam, or use IP or any other things, i loose 10%-25%hp When i encountered assassins, well, 2 different situations: - Assassin misses PA/BS, we fight, assassin hits me for 100-150 mainhand + 30-60 offhand + 120dmg by lifebane, and assassin dies when i still have roughly 50%hps, but what happens next? around 15 seconds later i die aswell on viper. - Assassin hits PA, CD, 1-2 hits and makes a run for it.... 10 seconds later, i die.... Now, tell me the difference between assassins and archers.

hun_cactus Myrmidon Posts: 171 Joined: Jul 03, 2006 00:00	by hun_cactus » Jul 11, 2009 13:11 Satz wrote:Now, tell me the difference between assassins and archers. Like Wizzy Vs Eld or Wizzy Vs bd or Wizzy vs anything?:) But yeah, i saw in broad that situation. But because 1(?) class has an owerpowered RA, then it's a reason to make other classes to a real unstopable killing machine? I know viper3 is really powerful (i don't have, and i won' have), but i'm not in the position - thanks god - to change/solve this problem. And before i get flame from others and starting an archerwhineBattle -again-, yes i have an Infi, but as you know it's inactive atm <img src="http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3213/signzzx.jpg"border="0" />

Gemma Eagle Knight Posts: 700 Joined: Oct 20, 2008 00:00 Location: Midgard	by Gemma » Jul 11, 2009 13:15 hun_cactus wrote: Amadeth wrote:I am sorry, but this is again another bunch of nonsense. Indeed, but i think better to ask a question then give an explanation. Why anybody think his/her class HAVE to able to kill any other class in the game in 1v1? [sarcasm=on]You are absolutely right, since archers are meant to be support/healingclasses, why should they able to kill something 1 on 1 anyways?! [/sarcasm] It isnt about being able to kill all other classes, it is about being able to kill at least a reasonable amount of classes (lowhp/lowabsorb for example). If these complains would come from supporters this would be oc a whole different thing, but these complains come from classes which are meant to be able to kill on range (at least do a good amount of dmg on range and finish then off in melee), and they should be able to do this to some classes even when they are at full health and con yellow. http://www.youtube.com/user/NOxQUANTum?feature=mhee

Satz Alerion Knight Posts: 1860 Joined: Jun 21, 2005 00:00 Location: Albion	by Satz » Jul 11, 2009 13:18 Thats axactly the reason! Archers see: Oh * any assassin kills any other class w/o problems, stealthers FTW! wtf why cant i kill anything solo? The point is, that archers compare themselves to assassins, who are indeed owerpowered because of that ra, and owerpowered that much, that they dare to attack any class no matter the rr or type. Normally every class has its own strengths and weaknesses. Stealthers shouldnt be able to kill tanks, tank should be able to kill casters and casters shouldnt be able to kill stealtehrs. And vice versa goes the kill-rate. You should have 1-3 RAs ready to turn this table. But, because of several, unbalanced things, this doesnt work this way, and so assassins kill anything and archers dont have anything to kill, since there are only tanks and stealthers running solo. Stealthwars ftw is the only option for archers to live on.

hun_cactus Myrmidon Posts: 171 Joined: Jul 03, 2006 00:00	by hun_cactus » Jul 11, 2009 13:27 Satz wrote:But, because of several, unbalanced things, this doesnt work this way, and so assassins kill anything and archers dont have anything to kill, since there are only tanks and stealthers running solo. Stealthwars ftw is the only option for archers to live on. So we have that unbalanced viper3, then here we go, do another unbalanced change? I understand what are you talking about (spoken ingame already about thoose things), and i mostly agree with you. Gemma@ Rangers aren't that bad btw (i know it' only 1 from the 3 archery class) <img src="http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3213/signzzx.jpg"border="0" />

Gemma Eagle Knight Posts: 700 Joined: Oct 20, 2008 00:00 Location: Midgard	by Gemma » Jul 11, 2009 13:33 hun_cactus wrote:Gemma@ Rangers aren't that bad btw (i know it' only 1 from the 3 archery class) U can bet i knew this!! Think everyone knows. If i write archers I refer mainly to hunters and scouts. http://www.youtube.com/user/NOxQUANTum?feature=mhee

jrhadden Eagle Knight Posts: 938 Joined: Jun 02, 2005 00:00	by jrhadden » Jul 11, 2009 14:01 Scout/Hunter wont kill a serious caster:) Greetz Nes Inactive

Funkling Banned Posts: 493 Joined: May 31, 2009 00:00	by Funkling » Jul 11, 2009 14:11 Yup 2-3 hits is too much. Should at the very least be ablt to 1 shot casters to make it fair. 10% chance for the caster to drop dead without attacking if you entered his cliprange while in stealth. Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.