Fresa wrote:-bowline beyond 27 spec almost useless

Why is that?

when/if old RAs come people will QQ as much as people QQ about new RAs being powerful

sure we wont have people QQ about viper3 assassins.. but then they will QQ about being dead withing PA+CD without no purge


so lets just get it in and see what happens

but yes.. an adaption to playstyle will be needed for all I think

vangonaj wrote:Why 7 years ago when we played daoc all were happy, no one stoped play ranger or scout cause he hadn´t detect hiden, and now all are crying and winning??????
Where is the problems for rangers? They are zerging every days in hmg or amg, they will do it with old ras and new ras.

kinda easy to answer..
melee specced ranger do not relay that much on the initiative of starting the fight, thatfor the melee specced ranger is not that much affected by losing MoS (the new Mos i mean where you also get the detection bonus for higher level, with old RA´s you only get better movement speed as archer with MoS)
True Sight is absolutly no replacement for MoS-scouts/hunters/rangers
having good stealth (usealbe once every 30 minutes, rest of the time scouts archers are blind against assasines)
so those rangers who are already melee will do even better than now..

vangonaj wrote:Why 7 years ago when we played daoc all were happy, no one stoped play ranger or scout cause he hadn´t detect hiden, and now all are crying and winning??????

This is exactly my point. They did stop playing!
100s of archers from all servers stop playing because they were unable to. Do you not remember the old saying:
"[enter char name here] the 50 Scout, that can't"
Solo play as an archer became impossible and the only option left was to make stealth groups to stand a chance. Then assassins did the same and it was game over.

Have a read of this:
http://www.gt7.net/daoc/death_of_a_scout.html
1.65/ Old RAs was the low point for archers.

ps. Detect hidden was not the problem, thats ingame now. Its See Hidden that had the major effect.

Zarkor wrote:

jrhadden wrote:I didnt said my Caster will die.

I said Caster are dieing. You cant deal dmg when you are dead^^.
Same with MoC. With resist rate etc. Even with 100% facing a real tank dealer you ll be dead before he drops. And there are alot ways to counter moc.

Example Sorc 100% Moc vs Sklad. Skald just mezz. Where is Purge? ah yes :s
Example Bomb 100% vs Shieldtank. Slam and its done. Where is Purge? ah yes :
....
There are alot ways (!)


Of course i am not talking about set group with nice debuff nuket etc.
But to be honest in such a group, you dont need big RAs to push dmg any further. But what about Casters facing instant mezz. And where is purge then? Or when got nearsighted. Or whatsoever...
30min Timer really hurts and hurts on Caster alot.

Hmm so the value of det is reduced? How much reduced? And no Charge? But vs charge you had your chances after all. Some of the chargetank might tell you that after facing 1v1 with Haiden.

Explain Crit Debuff? Will it be possible to land a 50% + 25% crit debuff?
That will produce the enemy resis ... hm yes to 0%. What was the gain of that? I am not into Old RAs, maybe i should check some pages before.

Greetz
Nes

ps. There are not many active hunters, not many with RR. Hunter is already pretty weak in comparison! If you dont believe it have a look into the Herald the statistics should convince you.

Ok I have stopped reading near the end.

To make a long pessimistic story short, players will have to rely on communication and skill more to get out of trouble. And you don't like it.

For sure it needs more teamplay. You ll eat that dish when you join a random group

Greetz
Nes

ps. To be honest i pretty much dislike talks the way you did.
When somebody brings arguements, try to answer with some.
A plain No is a discussion killer

jrhadden wrote:

Zarkor wrote:

jrhadden wrote:Example Sorc 100% Moc vs Sklad. Skald just mezz. Where is Purge? ah yes :s
Example Bomb 100% vs Shieldtank. Slam and its done. Where is Purge? ah yes :
....
There are alot ways (!)

...

For sure it needs more teamplay. You ll eat that dish when you join a random group

Greetz
Nes

ps. To be honest i pretty much dislike talks the way you did.
When somebody brings arguements, try to answer with some.
A plain No is a discussion killer

I did so because what you're saying here isn't even an argument

jrhadden wrote:ah yes :s

. If you MoC without checking your own immunity timers or Purge, you MIGHT be hard interrupted with CC, true. However even that is far from reality in most cases on Uthgard so far.

What's that?

You need to think before dumping your RA? ...Yes! Finally!


Anyway, if you bring arguments, I'll be happy to answer with some.

Can't we all have a conversation without insulting anyone left and right?

I personally have mixed feelings about OF-RA-system vs. NF-RAs. In my postings i just tried to point out, what things will be different in order to stimulate thought and discussion about such changes.


@Gemma:
Bow-line atm is(subjectively) beyond 27 in bow only worth it for volley (little dmg will be gained at 27+ in bow apart from volley). That's a ranger's perspective though, because we very rarely face pulsing bladeturn and hence don't rely on penetrating arrow. Might be different with wardens being played a lot in hib for you hunters and scouts out there.
When i wrote that line, i wasn't sure yet, if rapidfire and penetrating arrow abilities were in the game at patch 1.65. I have looked that up and they are already in there. Yay!
So bottomline is: Bow-line loses "just" volley (and the useless sureshot, which is patch 1.69)

When browsing the patch notes, i also found this however:

===================================


Dark Age of Camelot

Version 1.69 Release Notes

April 14, 2004


===================================

.........
Archer Changes

- We have given archers a new ability called Sureshot that is available at 45 bow specialization for Hunters, Rangers, and Scouts. When Sureshot is toggled on, the archer will brace herself against attacks from range, giving her a 100% chance of not being interrupted by any ranged attack, including arrows and spells. Because the bow is being fired from a less natural position, the damage from each arrow is halved. Sureshot cannot be used with Rapid Fire, Critical Shot, Longshot, or Volley. Penetrating Arrow benefits will count towards arrowed fire using Sureshot.

- Increased the buff spells for both Hunters and Rangers to bring them more in line with those available from buffing classes. Hunter�s Frenzied Spirit and Heart of the Lynx lines have been adjusted upwards, as has Ranger�s Sharpened Senses line

............

Then there is archer related stuff in patch 1.72, which will be reversed:
===================================

Dark Age of Camelot
Version 1.72 Release Notes
Fallen Barriers
October 26, 2004

===================================
.........
Class Changes



To reward those healing classes who spec in their healing lines, we have lowered the casting time on Greater Heal spells and group heals. We have also made it easier for buffing classes to rebuff players during combat by changing all concentration spells to be non-interruptible.

We have also added a new style to the shield line of Warriors, Armsman, and Heros. In addition to these changes, we have increased the values of self AF buffs for Hunters and Rangers.

.......


That's it for now.

Emery wrote:

vangonaj wrote:Why 7 years ago when we played daoc all were happy, no one stoped play ranger or scout cause he hadn´t detect hiden, and now all are crying and winning??????

This is exactly my point. They did stop playing!
100s of archers from all servers stop playing because they were unable to. Do you not remember the old saying:
"[enter char name here] the 50 Scout, that can't"
Solo play as an archer became impossible and the only option left was to make stealth groups to stand a chance. Then assassins did the same and it was game over.

Have a read of this:
http://www.gt7.net/daoc/death_of_a_scout.html
1.65/ Old RAs was the low point for archers.

ps. Detect hidden was not the problem, thats ingame now. Its See Hidden that had the major effect.

Im agree will be very hard for scouts, but is not end of the world. maybe scouts are for defend keeps and not for play solo maybe.

vangonaj wrote:Im agree will be very hard for scouts, but is not end of the world. maybe scouts are for defend keeps and not for play solo maybe.

It's not just the Scouts tho, it will be similar for all 3 archers.
I really hope the devs don't share your thoughts here. Shrugging things off and saying "oh they can just defend keeps" would be a very poor outlook.

I guess everyone is looking for an answer from the Devs here?
Will Uthgard definately be going ahead with these changes? And will it be with no "customisations"?
If so, I think my archer will join the others on the shelf, and they'll be another Infil on the field.

Maybe they will change their opinion but i think that no.

is it fix we are going old ras? they were unbalanced ****! only good thing mythic did was balancing ras.

as a minstrel I don't really mind the move to OF RAs, but I do sympathize with all the archer classes. If it comes to that I too will probably roll an infi

as for the Scouts not being solo class - sorry but this is just ridiculous. Scouts ARE a solo class. even the name of the class implies that. they are snipers in every sense and it's Mythic's fault that they used to underperform

from what i had read, theese changes to archer classes were done in order to balance it, since they were able to do 1 hit kills on casters and pretty good dmg on the rest.

so if old RAs are implemented then archers would receive the imba damage output right ?









... dont think that will happen in uth

No, you're miss understanding. All the nerfs listed on that page were from early daoc years leading up to about 1.65 where archers were at the lowest of their lows.
From there onward gradual changes were made to improve the classes because they were clearly underperforming.
Rapid Fire, Volley as a standard ability, Penetrating arrow and the removal of See Hidden (with the removal of OLD RAs) amoungst others were all changes made to improve the standard of archers.
Evidently in the end it turned out these changes were not enough, so they completly overhalled bow lines and changed to the new "Archery".
Now, I don't want this silly new system. I just don't want to see further nerfs to already underperforming archers, which is what 1.65 and old realm abilities will bring.

I cant remember that far back but did bows always have procs or were they added with the new RAs?