Bajan wrote:I had a scout on live, and i remember that i had see hidden too (yes that clippingrange stuff). it worked for 1 min every 15min?! archers will lose their mos-advantage..but thats it, and no assassin can see archer/minstrel all the time in clipping range!

I think your memory fails you. All detect hidden classes (assassins) had access to See Hidden, a passive realm ability that enables you to see non camoflauged archer and minstrels at almost clip range.
As an archer you didn't have see hidden. You had "True Sight" which last for 60 seconds and is on a 30 minute (yes 30 minute) reuse timer.
No comparison.

hun_cactus wrote:On: Just to remind you: The old and the new system also has advantage and disadvantage almost for every class if you compare to eachother.

Not for archers. Only disadvantages to an already disadvantaged class, which is why I made this post.

Emery wrote:Not for archers. Only disadvantages to an already disadvantaged class, which is why I made this post.

I wrote almost every class. I'm already think highly of players who's are rolling scouts here. (I think rangers/hunters have a bit better situation, but thats personal, and i don't wanna give flamebait for anybody).

As i wrote custom balancing is have some serious disadvantage, wich i still think we don't need it. (Even i roll atm a Reaver with will loose Det -if and when- in OF RA)

But enough for offtopic for me, before mods arrive here

Ok mate, the topic was discussing archers tho.
Speaking of MODs, would love to hear their views on this subject. I guess maybe one of you played an archer on live at 1.65/Old RAs?

Emery wrote:Ok mate, the topic was discussing archers tho.
Speaking of MODs, would love to hear their views on this subject. I guess maybe one of you played an archer on live at 1.65/Old RAs?

No, unfortounatly i'm not, i played other mmorpgs at thoose times, but i always liked assa/archer classes, and ppls who like their chars to play with them even with an other one should be much more easier.

hun_cactus wrote:

Zarkor wrote:Which is rather bad than good, don't you think?

No, because when it's starting then forum will be spam with loud cries.

You call it a spam of cries, I call it that too when it is actually balanced, but when it's not, that "spam of cries" is nothing more than a sincere request to improve balance. This may seem to become spam the more you see it, but that's because the cause of the "cries" isn't solved, so they won't end. That is if they are reasonable, if they aren't, they will die out on themselves, if they are in place, you can expect them to last as long as the imbalance remains.

Apparently you see it as a spam in any case, so.. you probably don't want balance then. But actually YOU are the one who's crying in this case, crying to PREVENT people from requesting more balance, now that is something WAY worse.

Zarkor wrote:Apparently you see it as a spam in any case, so.. you probably don't want balance then. But actually YOU are the one who's crying in this case, crying to PREVENT people from requesting more balance, now that is something WAY worse.

I don't spam for things wich are make better my chars (even it was of,nf, pre 1.65 or 1.8+) Even if things work like the way you say... for example:

Ppls cry for...mean like for balance", and they want the 8sec lifetap for bds... They will get it with time, then coming another xx number of players who's are playing with BD and want "rebalance" for them very loud, why? Because they saw ppl asked "custom balance" in forum and they got it. So, then what? If you feel the example is balance change for you, the bds will feel they got a nerf and getting start again...


Edit: Zarkor: pm sent.

I didn't said everythings is fine, and work fine, i said to do things what they was better then do things the way what the loud mass want. And personally i would appreciate to watch your words, and wouldn't indulge in personalities against me. Thank you very much.

ps: sorry for my english, maybe i was missunderstandable, my english is a bit gimp
ps2: if you want to continue this "conversation" about cries - i'm not- do it via pm/ig pls

Allthought it is indeed off-topic, I believe it's worth discussing.

Your opinion about people randomly calling for a nerf or love change is understandable, but you have to keep in mind that every unreasonable request will be shot down by the community aswell. I mean, who with a sane mind would want to actually for example give BDs some extra love? This obviously is far from balanced and thus not a reasonable request.

As long as we use our brains and common sense, crying about unreasonable things should be clearly denied.


Anyway, I'll stop replying here cus it's going too off topic, I just thought it was important...

To make it clear:
I agree fully with the opinion of the staff, not to start a custom change policy, but to set and define a standard, which in it's core will not be changed. I consider that wise. Not opening pandora's box.

When i used the word *customized* in my previous posting in this thread, i already had this in mind. Having thought a bit more about it, i consider my previous posting rather a question being raised, whether we really should want to set the standard of the server in the future to OF-RAs and version 1.65.

And i want to deliberate in cunjunction with the community about it. What else do you remember would change and what do you think about it, when we go back to that early stage of the game?

Where are the disadvantages and where are the advantages?

Since this thread is about archery, i will focus on it. On the other hand i try not to write about anything, that i don't know enough about.

OF-RAs will also have benefits for archers, but let's see, what we can predict alltogether:


Pros:
-Master of archery being the greatest advantage imo. Faster Bow-dmg, 3-15% faster shooting, same dmg.

-dodger=evade rates augmented by 3-15%

-worst enemy, assassins, lose:
a. viper3
(for mid and alb only partly, bc ns still got a 30 sec active viper)
b. aug RAs nerfed, especialy aug toughness
c. mopain nerfed

-mastery of arms augmenting swingspeed, if needed

-scouts with access to dragonfang

-enemies will seldomly purge due to long timer, same ip

-loss of rr5-RAs

-Divine intervention much weaker





Cons:

-aug RAs nerfed=possible dmg enhancement RAs nerfed

-aug toughness nerfed, especially with ip in mind seriously less hitpoints

-dmgoutput through reduction of rates for mopain and falconeye nerfed

-duelist reflexes for assassins augments dmg of infs/ns

-mastery of arms augments swingspeed for enemies

-NS get avoid pain, which is bad for hunters/scouts

-avoid pain RA only active 15min, whereas pd5 was passive

-purge nerfed 30min timer

-ip 100%, but 23 realmpoints and 30min timer

-See hidden for assassins for just 8 realmpoints, passive, at clipping range -lol

-volley in old version considerably weaker, will cost realmpoints!

-bowline beyond 27 spec almost useless

-nerf of purge to 30min timer makes blade-spec senseless


That's what i could think of, feel free to adjust it and enhance that list.

volley in old RA´s is not weaker..its simply not worth to get it as RA...
6 arrows every 30 minutes...hell yeah...great.
but as one befor said...let time pass and have a look, but from what i can read about old RA´s i dont like them (for scouts)

I dont see any advantages at all for hunter / scout. It will be a mess:
Loosing PD
Loosing MoS
Loosing RR5 to escape.
Loosing Volley
Loosing Purge (so you cant purge dot/stun after pa/bs)
Loosing IP (except if u have 1 encounter in 30min).
Enemies gain more evade & after evade stun.
Enemies gain detect hidden
Loosing 5% Evade ( tough u can invest RA to compensate).
What was the gain again ?
Ah yes some Mastery of Archery..
While all other RAs to increase damage like AugDex,FalconEye get weaker.

The impact of evade is even enough. Some hyponumbers.
Lets say Infi/Ns/Sb has 50% cap evade due to RAs (which is possible).
Let say Hunter/Scout put all his points into evade (which is not possible).
Infi/Ns/Ranger vs Hunter/Scout.
50% evade vs 25% evade (dual wield halfs evade!!)...
Calculate the expectation value and your done as hunter xD



Loosing RR5 ... Lets have a look on the Caster-Gameplay:

Rm will loose 90% evade.
Sorc will loose 90%abs
Eld will loose speedhack
Menta his pbae blinding
...
On the other hand
Caster will face more enemies with det.
Caster wont be able to purge often. I cant wait for Healer/Bard instant mezz ... wait until its your turn to die..
Caster wont have alot DI to eat.
Caster wont have much hope for SoS.


That is countered with huge ..
What was the Casterlove about again ?


I see alot Caster/Hunter/Scouts die ...

Greetz
Nes

@ Cactus hey
I ll guess introducing OF, the guys crying the most loudess have already won

jrhadden wrote:I dont see any advantages at all for hunter / scout. It will be a mess:
Loosing PD
Loosing MoS
Loosing RR5 to escape.
Loosing Volley
Loosing Purge (so you cant purge dot/stun after pa/bs)
Loosing IP (except if u have 1 encounter in 30min).
Enemies gain more evade & after evade stun.
Enemies gain detect hidden
Loosing 5% Evade ( tough u can invest RA to compensate).
What was the gain again ?
Ah yes some Mastery of Archery..
While all other RAs to increase damage like AugDex,FalconEye get weaker.

The impact of evade is even enough. Some hyponumbers.
Lets say Infi/Ns/Sb has 50% cap evade due to RAs (which is possible).
Let say Hunter/Scout put all his points into evade (which is not possible).
Infi/Ns/Ranger vs Hunter/Scout.
50% evade vs 25% evade (dual wield halfs evade!!)...
Calculate the expectation value and your done as hunter xD



Loosing RR5 ... Lets have a look on the Caster-Gameplay:

Rm will loose 90% evade.
Sorc will loose 90%abs
Eld will loose speedhack
Menta his pbae blinding
...
On the other hand
Caster will face more enemies with det.
Caster wont be able to purge often
Caster wont have alot DI to eat.
Caster wont have much hope for SoS.


That is countered with huge ..
What was the Casterlove about again ?


I see alot Caster/Hunter/Scouts die ...

Greetz
Nes

@ Cactus hey
I ll guess introducing OF, the guys crying the most loudess have already won

Ok, Hunter gets weaker. But your view of OF caster balance is really pesimistic. More enemies with det? Current fulltank det is better than it will be with OF. And hybrid tanks wont have access to det again.

On the other hand, there is full damage moc, better mana ras for less points and mastery of the art (castspeed) and some mastery for crit debuffs. That is really a caster nerf

And no DI and longer purge timer cant be a con, its neutral. Because enemies have the same problem.

@Fresa
Custom balance has begun, since Animists were forced to be gimp. Firstly, they introduced pet cap, because of several whiners. Thereafter, they recognized that pets pets barely have resists and spec nuke is still not working.
Welcome to the gimp class.

I didnt said my Caster will die.

I said Caster are dieing. You cant deal dmg when you are dead^^.
Same with MoC. With resist rate etc. Even with 100% facing a real tank dealer you ll be dead before he drops. And there are alot ways to counter moc.

Example Sorc 100% Moc vs Sklad. Skald just mezz. Where is Purge? ah yes :s
Example Bomb 100% vs Shieldtank. Slam and its done. Where is Purge? ah yes :
....
There are alot ways (!)


Of course i am not talking about set group with nice debuff nuket etc.
But to be honest in such a group, you dont need big RAs to push dmg any further. But what about Casters facing instant mezz. And where is purge then? Or when got nearsighted. Or whatsoever...
30min Timer really hurts and hurts on Caster alot.

Hmm so the value of det is reduced? How much reduced? And no Charge? But vs charge you had your chances after all. Some of the chargetank might tell you that after facing 1v1 with Haiden.

Explain Crit Debuff? Will it be possible to land a 50% + 25% crit debuff?
That will produce the enemy resis ... hm yes to 0%. What was the gain of that? I am not into Old RAs, maybe i should check some pages before.

Greetz
Nes

ps. There are not many active hunters, not many with RR. Hunter is already pretty weak in comparison! If you dont believe it have a look into the Herald the statistics should convince you.

jrhadden wrote:I didnt said my Caster will die.

I said Caster are dieing. You cant deal dmg when you are dead^^.
Same with MoC. With resist rate etc. Even with 100% facing a real tank dealer you ll be dead before he drops. And there are alot ways to counter moc.

Example Sorc 100% Moc vs Sklad. Skald just mezz. Where is Purge? ah yes :s
Example Bomb 100% vs Shieldtank. Slam and its done. Where is Purge? ah yes :
....
There are alot ways (!)


Of course i am not talking about set group with nice debuff nuket etc.
But to be honest in such a group, you dont need big RAs to push dmg any further. But what about Casters facing instant mezz. And where is purge then? Or when got nearsighted. Or whatsoever...
30min Timer really hurts and hurts on Caster alot.

Hmm so the value of det is reduced? How much reduced? And no Charge? But vs charge you had your chances after all. Some of the chargetank might tell you that after facing 1v1 with Haiden.

Explain Crit Debuff? Will it be possible to land a 50% + 25% crit debuff?
That will produce the enemy resis ... hm yes to 0%. What was the gain of that? I am not into Old RAs, maybe i should check some pages before.

Greetz
Nes

ps. There are not many active hunters, not many with RR. Hunter is already pretty weak in comparison! If you dont believe it have a look into the Herald the statistics should convince you.

Ok I have stopped reading near the end.

To make a long pessimistic story short, players will have to rely on communication and skill more to get out of trouble. And you don't like it.

Yes new RAs make your character very strong. Im playing sb and with old ra ill lost 5 min recast in purge3, tougnless is nerfed mop too. For train dodger ill must train aug qui, when i dont need it or aug dex for mop. I prefer play with new RA sistem but if we will change to old RA ill must change my gameplay.

But my question is:
Why 7 years ago when we played daoc all were happy, no one stoped play ranger or scout cause he hadn´t detect hiden, and now all are crying and winning??????
Where is the problems for rangers? They are zerging every days in hmg or amg, they will do it with old ras and new ras.