ForumAgramon RvR zone alternative: Old Frontiers Emain Macha.
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Hello everyone,
I and many others know and realise that Agramon just doesnt cut it in regard to offering a decent and enjoyable RvR map. There is no place to look for incs besides practically the whole of Agramon and beyond (frontier zones). Taking or attacking a tower will in fact create an amount of incs, 80% of the time. However, you must consider running to that specific tower is taking roughly 10 minutes. That is 10 minutes without any form of action. Not to mention the time needed for the enemy group / players to get organised and meet you. Even when you know there are groups / a group around, it's just way too hard to find them. All you can do is hope for them to have not passed you or are still where you are heading to. Having a bit of bad luck will result in again easily 10 minutes without any form of action, besides maybe an unlucky soloer or some XPers. I'm sure most if not all of us are familiar with this. The LWRP chart does in fact support this fact. LWRP has never been this low as far as I've seen. The removal of boats have somewhat improved the situation, however can not prevent people from having to look at any possible place when there's no obvious siege action. I don't think more changes will be able to revive the RvR the way it should be; smooth, active and entertaining. Every change up til now has slightly improved things, however none has actually managed to get people out there and really motivate people to do their thing. I've noticed a serious decrease in small groups and soloers, aswell as full groups compared to when the camps were in place. The big problem is the amount of time you need to find incs, it's so hard that even 1 full grp vs 1 full grp isn't enough to keep people in the frontiers just because you lose so much time roaming around for that 1 encounter every 20 minutes. To be honest, it can just be a waste of time, especially when the other grp has a serious advantage (setup/RR/..). Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not asking to put camps back into place, not at all. They were creating a negative form of RvR, making it almost impossible to fight without getting zerged, making areas near camps deadlier than intended due to guards as backup and generally breeding a (mid)zerg daily. The only real benefit they gave, was that solo/small grp RvR was in fact flourishing, especially compared to the current state. With those facts cleared out I'd like to move on to my real proposal: Replacing New Frontiers, with the Old Frontiers. Using Emain Macha as main RvR zone. This in the following way: RvR: - Use Border Keep Teleports for each realm to the portal keeps which would be: APK, MPK and Dun Crimthain or Dun Bolg (in Breifine). Make these ports teleport players every on request or time the ports if needed (3-5 mins). (However, you will be able to use all OF zones, ports will be possible to Emain(or Breifine for Hib) for every realm by the borderkeep teleporter, to make distance to action somewhat equal for every realm) - Use Dun Crauchon as Central Keep, functioning as DF controlling keep and perhaps giving a slight (~5%) RP and/or XP and/or crafting speed bonus. PvE: - I have no real ideas how to implement the PvE content and XP bonusses in OF, but I'm sure this could be easily worked out. Keep in mind that this is just an idea how to actually implement OF as a functioning RvR zone. Different suggestions and comments are welcome. I just figured Emain Macha was the main RvR zone on basicly every DAoC server running OF, so it is also my preferred choice. Now, let's look at what this would mean stating weighing off pro's and contras. (At least from what I've read about this topic so far) Contras:(quoting Haldan)
From what I understand (please correct me if I misunderstood]: - No Relic System from the start. - Runs are longer then in the current system. - Keep - layouts make it impossible to take keeps defended by animists. - There is a need for a teleport system since realms aren't directly connected with the zone. - It's a fully Zerg orientated zone - Problem regarding which Keep will be the Teleportkeep. - The need for everyone to patch their client. - The work the Dev's have currently put into the NF zone, will become unused. Pros: + OF is something to be proud of as a Classic Server. Especially on Uthgard since I feel Uthgard has the most Classic setting I've ever encountered since the coming of ToA. + A lot of people would love to play in OF once again. + Known routes and hotspots (AMG anyone?), creating an incredible increase of incs and removing the empty feeling Agramon gives. + Low peak action will find it's way to MGs and make that kind of RvR flourish again. + No fuss with camp(gaurd)s due to Teleport Keeps. + Provides a solution to the current RvR issue. + Will attract more new players to Uthgard. Now a little personal comment regarding the negative aspects Haldan pointed out. [Relics] To be honest, I wouldn't mind losing Relics in return for active and healthy RvR, especially in OF. [Longer Runs] Ahh.. I feel that the longer runs are actually not true. Just because of the fact that your run is as long as your first inc, which will be way sooner than in Agramon, making it so that the distance covered before finding action is in fact less than in the current situation, if they are any longer in the first place. [Animist Defense] What happened to the current lay-outs? Animists make it hard for anyone taking a keep, even with new keeps. I don't see what changed regarding AE mezz / AE dmg to counter shrooms with new keeps. That should still be as possible and viable as now. [Teleporting] Yes, there is a need to teleport to the zone, however I don't see where this should be more negative than the current system, making you have to port to the homekeeps or even take a boat to the home keeps. Of course there might be a slight delay if you chose to implement it, but I don't see where this should create a problem. [Zerg] I believe Relics are more Zerg orientated than any other feature. Besides that I don't see how Emain would encourage people to zerg. I agree MGs will create a packed area at times, but at primetime, FGs should be more aware of their actions anywhere if they don't want to be zerged, even in Agramon. I don't think that 2 FGs passing a milegate will make more zergs than 2 FGs leaving their frontier zone on the way to Agramon. [Which Keep] I don't think there's much to be doubted here. I only see a possible doubt between Crim or Bolg for Hib's port. [Patch] I would gladly patch my client to play in a zone with more RvR activity, definately in OF. I don't think many other players would mind either, after all, on live you would regularly have to patch. [Devs Efforts] This is for me the biggest contra because it's the dev's who need to decide whether or not they want to make the decision or not. Doing something with great care and not using it always is hard to endure. However I do hope that dev's might actually think this would be worth it one day and at least give OF a shot on the current server. (I know it's been there before and I know they had their reasons to remove it, but I do think that OF just might be the solution needed to revive the end RvR in a way that would only improve the Classic feeling here on Uthgard). This thread is to brainstorm and consult the community and staff about this subject, loose from other aspects such as caster balance, Old RAs, patch limits,... I hope you find the time to read all this and give your feedback. As a last note, I would like to mention that a poll about this might be a good idea to get a clearer view on the population's opinion. Peace.. (or at least IRL  )~Zrawkor PS: Here are links to some the OF maps. [HIB]http://daoc.catacombs.com/maps/c_hib_frontier_kirstena.jpg [ALB]http://www.io.com/~caladin/kirstena/albionmaps/albion_frontier.gif [MID]http://daoc.catacombs.com/maps/c_mid_frontier_kirstena.jpg Update: added more interest in the server to the pros. Last edited by Zarkor on May 19, 2009 14:21, edited 1 time in total.
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http://voltan.net/hib_emain.jpg
that picture gives me a hard on EVERY time...that WAS daoc at its prime...at its finest... this is a classic server...that word classic is the reason this server has a population. i def agree that this is the most classic server that i have seen since i last played...this server has so much potential...just stick with the basics! stick with the hib frontier "+ A lot of people would love to play in OF once again." ^^^ do you know why this is 100% true? because even MYTHIC is making a server, "Origins", that is going to be Old Frontiers...people want OF... longer runs? lol maybe for the hibs...albs and mids have it on EZ mode when it comes to running...looking at that map again after so many years...man i feel sorry for the hibbies now i forgot how far of a run that was for them...and all they had was the tree speed lol. what do you guys have against a teleporter? having to wait for the port after dying is a good thing...you should be punished after dying...makes you NOT WANT TO DIE that much more...gives you time to be ****** at the guy who killed you....gives you time to imagine how bad you are going to rape him once you port back... i remember finding action in emain very fast...always knew where to look for peeps...if it wasn't for the porters i think there wouldnt have been enough downtime inbetween deaths... last but not least back in the day single servers with 1500-2500 people did JUST FINE with emain being the main hotspot...how is it that emain wont be good for a tiny server like this? if i had emain to look forward to at the end of my grind to 50...i can guarantee you i would be a zombie grinding 24/7, taking sh*ts in a bucket next to the computer...all just so i could ding 50 asap so i could rvr. Last edited by wohast on May 19, 2009 09:44, edited 1 time in total.
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i like ur idea with old nf =) gogo emain <3
but u cant say or can u ? all the old things were better... like 1990 was better then this age now... in Old Nf many ppl were new..not many ppl are high rr etc etc there werent so much just 8vs8 people....more people played fun style run solo to a zerg.. Nekros got invited to Pugs.. the old RA system is also better =) but PRO old nf is.. Agramon is a Big Circle Map where u run in circles... to find ur enemys.. Old Emain was a long Road headed from crim -> amg + ^ mmg sure liked the way to camp the ppl run solo to walls/mainstream roads.. but for 3-4 Fg in all Realms.. Old NF is to small u will see only zerg and u havent one fight without Add what i dont like on new nf is water fights.. so much hills u cant go on top.. u cant really hide ur self to avoid the zerg and more |
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you're saying in old nf people were new?
old nf was around from oct 2001 till june 2004...sure everyone was new for the first year...then there was SI and SCing armor, def remember people not being noob...then there was peeps deckout out in ToA gear, def remember people not being noob....i was rr8 when NF came out... i can say that live DAoC is complete trash right now...and old school DAoC, hell even ToA DAoC is 1000x better. UO (ultima online) is beyond complete trash right now....old school UO pre tram, probably the best mmorpg ive ever played. as for it being to small....single mythic servers (merlin, guin, etc etc) with 1500-2500 people did JUST FINE with hib frontier-emain- being the main hotspot...we are talking servers with populations 3-4x the size of this one. i remember running with a strict 8v8 guild grp for a few months with a zerker...we would ****** like crazy whenever people would be in other zones cuz it was a pain in the ass to have to go look for them...we wanted everyone to be in emain... Last edited by wohast on May 19, 2009 09:45, edited 1 time in total.
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UO was the first mmorpg with alot of PvP aspects.. and was the best in his time ever.. like daoc was
i dont know witch server/s u played but alot of SI people joined just with Si how many ppl u saw in Epic with Flame effekt weapons... then the size is to small on primetime .. a normal good 8v8 can be up to 10min a fight and u will tell me u cant cruise in 10min old emain? sure better groups farm near bolg .. try to catch groups before they enter emain... but this not happen to uthgard =) Last edited by Melodexx on May 19, 2009 10:13, edited 1 time in total.
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theres what 550-650 people here during your euro prime time? 250-350 during usa prime time?
hell the small mythic server palomides that i used to play on had atleast 900 people on at all times...and primetime was 1500ish. 99.7% of rvr took place in emain/hib front... now you're saying a server that has 500ish people is too big lol... this is the third time i've made this point, are you sure you understand it? i mean if we went by what you're saying....since mythic servers had 3-4x the population of uthgarde rvr in emain must have SUCKED! if thats the case then why do 100% of daoc vets get a smile on their face when they hear the word "EMAIN". noone complained about emain back then...people complained about being forced to pay for a second account so you could have a buffbot...and that problem has already been takin care of here. |
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y i see maybe get 50 and check it urself? |
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Dont think daoc=Uo.You cant find any action or fight like ultima online in any game.Daoc is completely different.In ultima online you cant find any ppl lvling too much time.If there is 500 player online,400 player fighting.In daoc if 500 player online,30 player in braemar,30 player in wilton,20 player in thid.And 30-40 player in agramon rvr.I mean 100-150 player in daoc---/---400 player in ultima online.Btw i played ultima online 8 year.And 3 year i was admin/gamemaster. And to staff.Firstly you have to accept you are not official daoc shard.I know you are wanting to be like official shard.But ask your self and ask your players,how many ppl is wanting it?We dont have 900 player or 1500 player online here.We are just 500-600.And if you are trying to do it like official shard,these numbers will go to down i think.And we all dont wanna see it. Btw i am not trying to flame you staff.These are reals and you have to accept it.Like we are humans,not x-mens or spiderman or batman  |
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Old new frontiers, how did I miss those?
You contradict yourself in the same post... How can you say it will be zerg all the time and then say it is easier to avoid zerg?
You are right, something old can't be good, let's quit Uthgard and go play WoW. Now. I'm on Al'Asdfasf, cya there. The world will look up and shout "Save us!"...and I'll whisper "NO U."
<img src="http://metty.the-bart.org/other/daoc/sig.php?name=Zaraki&s=4"> <img src="http://metty.the-bart.org/other/daoc/sig.php?name=Chopchop&s=4"> |
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Major problem on this server is not lack of population, it's lack of ACTIVE lvl50 pvp players. From what i understand OF are WAY bigger then NF. Logically it will take alot more time for players to meet thus making it even worse then it is now.
Still i may be wrong. |
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you're saying for me to get to 50 and check out the RvR area that even you are complaining about lol? Or are you just going for the "omg you're a lil level 21 that has never played a 50 and has no idea what you're talking about"...if thats the case please go ahead and copy and paste the part where my main toon was a rr8 shadowblade on a server that had 1500 people on it. i haven't once complained about the current RvR area due to the fact that I have never tried it. I'm simply defending OP's idea, because during the 3 years that i played DAoC, emain kicked ass, and guess what it kicked ass on a server that had 3 times the population of this one, and also guess what it kicked ass on servers that had 4-5 times the population as this one. All I see on the forums is complaints about the end game lvl 50 RvR here (i dunno about you but I only play for end game 50 rvr, not BG's), so describing how OP's original idea sounds great seems more than reasonable, yes? Hildo you brought up another good point even though its a very rough estimate: "In daoc if 500 player online,30 player in braemar,30 player in wilton,20 player in thid.And 30-40 player in agramon rvr." Melodexx so these HIGH numbers here are the numbers you're saying are too big for emain/hibfront lol? Last edited by wohast on May 19, 2009 11:00, edited 1 time in total.
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OP is not suggesting letting us roam around ALL the old frontiers...just 2-3 zones of the Hib OF...which contains emain....which is a perfect size for the #'s that i've seen on during my last two weeks of play. We're not just going by how big we think it is from looking at maps of it....we're going by actually playing in it for many years and knowing it like the back of our hands. There's a reason LIVE Mythic DAoC had 1k-3k players on EACH server during the time that OF was out...and why numbers fell and never came back up again after NF > Cata > etc, to the point where there are barely 1700 players on a 10 server cluster, and 200 players on a 7 server cluster. anyways its 3am here in texas now, gotta head to bed. so no more replies till manana we want OF EMAIN not the NF EMAIN that already failed here! Last edited by wohast on May 19, 2009 11:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Agree to everything, roll on! I'd much rather have OF than old RAs.
Maybe somehow we should get a poll out ingame aswell so we can avoid the criticism that it's only a few forum heroes wanting this change. Like popping a message when people log in to urge them to come to the forum and vote? So only the people who really care about it do so.
I don't we've ever had OF? As far as I can recall correctly it was Braemar first and then NF Emain and finally Agramon.
Like the poster above me said if we only use Emain and possibly Breifine it should never be too small. When we NF Emain here it was rather an issue of the RvR-zone being too small and we had an even smaller rvr-population then. While having more space than NF Emain it has more of those common routes and hotspots that 8v8s and stealthers/soloers/small groups crave for. |
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OF Emain? No.
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Old frontiers are not good for the server. The only emain zone would be too little, and there would be only add and zerg at gates. Maybe you would like to implement all old frontiers
 ? And then when you read from ppl (yes, you had to read from ppl because you could not read death spam) that enemy were in another zone you have to suicide and go back there making even 2 loadings?
It would make me laugh if some people cryng because they need to run so much in agramon would agree with old frontiers |
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