Ruthenian Unchained wrote:I frequently read that paladins are relegated to peeling/guarding on Uthgard. I have not played open field RvR here, but I'm curious why it's so much different than Classic Live where the two main 8man specs were 2H and hybrid. In a tank group, if support needed a peel, the train would often peel en masse to keep DPS high or an armsman would drop off. The hybrids were only fielded in balanced or caster-heavy extend groups.

2H paladin was a blast in that context. What's the crucial difference here that makes 2H paladins so unpopular?

there are some things u should count about uthgard:

-) new ra's w/out any toa bonus/arts
this mean that a charge3 det5 rr10/11 zerk/bm is not easy to counter w/out bonus hp's of cl's, w/out arts and ml's stuffs (see bodyguard, grapple and many other toys from artifacts). See --> if a bm/zerk charge on a caster/cleric, if there is no pala giving a good guard and a good snare = instant boom

-) no def penetration/ws working
here ws mean nothing, and def penetration don't care about anything. this mean a guarding paladin / hero / warrior have a very very high chance to block lot of swings against the caster/healer he is protecting.

-) 2handed dmg is a joke
when i 've ding 50 to pally i was hybrid, ofc, remembering how live was working.
after gain some rp's, and try out on rvr, i realized the 2handed styles and dmg are just horrible.
i am doing more dmg overall with taunt 1h using a fast weapon (i use a 2.8 speed dw weapon, because what i need is only be fast on snare --> second style after detaunt)

-) no celerity here for paladins

... so, on conclusion, i find LOT MORE USEFUL a 44 thrust paladin trying to snare a tank keeping always guard up than a wannabe dps 2handed paladin that will get evaded and will miss 70% of swings trying to snare a tank w/out being guarding the caster/healer (and when this 2h paladin hit dmg will be just horrible)

ofc, if u 2hsnare after slam work well, but i can assure u that after slam i am snaring very fast too using 44thrust combo with fast weapon + theurgist haste

@Jazzmin
ofc i mean 44thrust for 8men paladins
for solo is all different. i've put a video on uthgard forums where i run solo spec paladin (and was working pretty well).
i was something like 32 weapon, don't remember exactly, and high chants for magics resists switch
i really don't remember the spec, but was something like:

thrust 34 (remember, ws don't work ... and after block stun on thrust like is just AWESOME)
shield 42
chants 48 (for last af chant and super magic resistence buffs)
parry 27 (damn useful against dual wielders)

with a slower weapon than the 2.8 i use 8men

... was performing pretty well, only vip3 sb's was giving me really a trouble

here is the link
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=30110

i don't like 2handed hybrid paladins, but this is just my opinion.

/bb
realac0

p.s. for 8men paladin i run a classic:

42 chant (just for last endo regen)
42 shield (+mob3/4 is all what paladin need for be decent on guard)
44 thrust (ofc)
22 parry (just for have something useful for raids, parry can hlep as being usually main tank)

det5
mob3
lw2
serenity 1 (or 2)

as soon as possible

then progress with what u like more or your guild need:

mob4 for more defence
aog 1/2 for boost spike dps

maybe purge1 too should be a good choice, others put points on aug dex

my 2cents

It appears many people are ready to condemn a 2-Handed Paladin here to uselessness, I honestly think these players have not actually tried it or they just listen to the general responses from others about them. I'm not trying to convert anyone, these are just my experiences running as a 2-Handed Paladin.



My Spec: Realm Rank 5, fully AutoTrained
- 48 Chants - Cold Resist Bruh'
- 42 Shield - Slam/Guard
- 39 2-Handed - Go Hardcore!
- 23 Slash <- - - - - - - - - MUST have composite 38 Slash at least! Also Side Snare!

1) 2-Handed Paladin Damage
You do not play a 2-Handed Paladin for Damage, the 2-Handed line is for the Snare utility options available to you. Most of the time you will not receive Strength/Constitution buff from Clerics, just AoE. I carry two 2-Handed Weapons, one being a 4.5 Speed one with an Ablative (So I don't break my own Snares and Endurance efficiency) and another that's 5.5 Speed for DPS occasions. Typically I keep the Faster one out for Group RvR for focusing on Snares.

My Damage variance ranges about 220-380, the higher end obviously being me using the 5.5 weapon vs. Slash-Weak opponents and I received the concentration Strength/Constitution buff. 220-330 damage with AoE S/C. Wielding the 4.5 Speed Sword my damage range is like 120-250 damage. Again, the variables in damage being determined if my opponent is weak to Slash, if I have S/C concentration buff from the Cleric etc.

2) Slash/2-Handed Snare Utility
- 4 - Double Back: Back Snare
- 15 - Onslaught: Side Snare, 14 seconds
- 21 - Bone Splitter: Followup from anytime "Bone Bruiser", 11 seconds
- 39 - Doubler: Back Snare,
- 21 - Side Slicer: Side Snare, 12 seconds

To start with, obviously use the 4.5 Speed 2-Hander. It's not as slow as people think. Also have a 2.6 Speed Jambya for the Side-Snares and Bubble-Popping of course. A group running PBT will easily negate your hits, you must adapt and pop the bubble with the 1-Hander then apply Snares.

Of all of the above styles above mentioned, I only use 3. Onslaught, Doubler, and Side Slicer. I, as a 2-Handed Paladin wills almost always land a Snare on my opponent if I open up with Onslaught then use Doubler as a backup Style. Opponents have a tiny arc to avoid getting Snared, unless they get lucky with Bubble/Enhanced Evade.

When Guarding players and peeling you obviously need to get used to Snare-SwapToShieldForGuard-Snare playstyle. Or just Slam/Numb, apply Snare, then move on. If your main playstyle is to Slam, apply Snare, then walk away, you would be better off running the Thrust spec. All 2-Handed Snares have a low duration. Meaning if you Slam then immediately apply snare, 90% of you snare will be ticked duration the Slam-Duration, in other words wasted. You need to go back and Snare your target closer to the end of the Stun Duration to make sure the Snare takes full effect. Or use a more skillful tactic and use Numb on your enemies then apply Snare, or just not stun at all, saving your Slam for emergencies or when your group wants to spike an over extender down.

Then you have your 1-Handed Side Slicer snare, I'm just a fan of it after running at least 10-Blades on every Bard spec I ran for years.

3) 2-Handed Miss-Rates
Resolved Here, You MUST have composite 38 Slash/Thrust/Crush for whichever damage-type you are using with your 2-Hander.
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=30091

4) Issues with 2-Handed
Simply put, Endurance consumption. I chug 1-3 Strong Elixirs of Endurance each fight. You definitely need to get used to swapping between the Buckler for Fast Slams/Endurance efficiency and a Large Shield for Guard purposes. LongWind II is also a must.

If Shrouded Isles was out, I'd definitely acquire these two items:
Ancient Brass Two-Handed Sword - 4.3 Speed, 100% Endurance Heal Proc http://camelot.allakhazam.com/item.html?citem=8633
Angel-Forged Breastplate - Epic Armor Skin, Persistent Endurance Regen 3 http://camelot.allakhazam.com/item.html?citem=8845
- Unless the above Breastplate requires you to wear the entire suit, scratch that. Junk.

There is also an issue for those that did not AutoTrain all the way. My spec is just not possible for someone that did not AutoTrain at all. They would have to give up points in Chants (thus losing the Red Cold resist) or drop down to lower 2-Handed. Which sort of defeats the purpose of going that line at all. It would still work using "Double Back", assuming that style never gets adjusted.

Notes:
I have an All-Cap Template that is suited for a Slash/2-Handed Paladin, Fully AutoTrained, Highlander. I think I even did 15 or 10 Strength and the rest in Dexterity for lulz at Character creation. Using my 5.5 Speed 2-Hander I only have 65/75 Quickness to help improve my "spike" damage in those rare occasions I run that Sword. Quickness is capped 75/75 when I use the 4.5 speed crafted 2-Hander. Just recently I hit RealmRank 5, I have yet to RvR on my Paladin to see it's new damages now. I also have yet to play the 2-Handed Paladin since the latest Melee-Snare change.

When I say 2-Handed Paladin, of course I'm referring to a "Hybrid" Paladin with at least 42 Shield. Anything different, such as going 50 2-Handed is a term some of us refer to as "Going Full-Retard." Do not be a violator, don't commit "Full-Retard."

Slash/2-Handed vs. 44 Thrust Experience
Alright, I have leveled two Paladins. My first Albion character on Uthgard was a 44-Thrust, fully AutoTrained Saracen Paladin. HATED IT! I found it so monotonous and frustrating. The character became focused on trying to land that 2-Part style. Which was only easy to do if the target was stunned. The first style, a detaunt, does not have a To-Hit bonus, then you must attempt landing the second one. What usually happened? Chasing moving targets trying to land Wyvernfang . . .I missed, the enemy evaded, the enemy JUST got out of range, BladeTurn kicked in, the enemy turned, he has snare immunity! . . . If that style failed, I felt utterly useless to the group as it required an immense amount of effort to land. Everything revolved around landing that Style, I couldn't take it anymore so I retired that Paladin to a Crush-PvE spec. I hated the Paladin, I swore I'd never play it in RvR again.

Round Two: Sick of not having an available Paladin for RvR. Created the Highlander 2-Handed Paladin, fully AutoTrained with one beastly Template of items I acquired over time. Uh-May-Zin! It was an entirely different world, I never knew I'd have so much fun on a tank class. I'm usually the Caster or Support player. The Snare styles, in my opinion, are a hell of a lot easier for me to land. I just find being able to spam Side+Back Snare to be almost guaranteed to land in most cases. I wasn't staring into the eyes of my opponent to see if I landed that Wyvernfail style. I'd instantly see it - - - my defendee gaining distance and I'm dealing somewhat okay damage. The damage I'd compare similar to a Skald. I've even seen over-extended players hesitant to keep pushing their targets with me on their tail allowing my team to gain distance combined with my moderate damage. Switching and dancing around targets landing snares became a much easier and pleasurable experience. As a thruster, if you started that first style, you're usually focused to try landing that 2nd Snare. Now days, I actually look forward to playing the Paladin.

Never, at any point being a 2-Handed Paladin, have I felt crippled in any way.



- Hula

well, u like your 2handed hybrid paladin and i am happy for u

i understand all your points, but i'am too lazy to switch on 2h just for make all these styles when i can just use a fast weapon and land the combo with a longer duration (u forgot to mention that 44thrust snare is 27 seconds, BY FAR longer than any of your 2handed and side slicer snare).

that's why i mainly use it after slam (for be sure not get evaded) and then i switch target. after slam there will be other 18 seconds of snare that is HUGE, expecially on det5 tanks ...

all this while i am still guarding the same target (is pretty usual 2 tanks are on /assist on the same target)

last but not least, focus a paladin on dex is lot more useful than on str because dex help a lot on guard too.

...

just different styles of play. the one u proposing is lot harder, more skill-need, and, about pro's and bad's i see:

pro)
better spike dps (counting just first swing)

well, with 44thrust, dmg on enemies tanks just sux (zerks resistents, bm's neutral)

on the other side, u need to switch, make your style hoping u not get evaded (bm's/zerks have advanced 360degree evade) ... and , remember, bt.

... if u MISS (or get evaded, or bt broke your swing), u must w8 ages for try snare again (using 5.5), or u can switch again your 2h with the 4.5 for being faster ...

well, on this time your theurgist/clerics is going to be destroyed to the same r11 zerk/bm u'r tryng to snare ...


worth it?

switch , switch, switch ...

bad)
u lose something on guard efficiency
u lose something on guard on mutiple tanks charging your same grp target (for try to snare, u must switch 2h, and cancel guard, if u stay on guard, u can't snare, if u try slide slicer with shield up, well, again, u need lot more skill-need work on strafing)
all your differents snares are 1/2 longer than the classic 44thrust, and, on my opinion, more hard to land (counting u must switch 2h all the time from s/s and that u'll have all the same problems on evade/bt i have with 44thrust)

so, at the end, switch, switch, switch, switch for the only benefict of be able to land , as first swing with 5.5weapon, more dmg on tanks enemies. I don't understand when u say that 2h is not for dmg, but is for all the different type of snare u can have ...

really, i am confused ... why i need side snare, back snare all with 1/2 duration of the 44thrust that i can land on every position? (and with 2.8 weapon speed + therug haste is FAST, really FAST ... )

worth it?


my 2cents
bb
realac0

p.s.
i was wrong about weapon speed, i use fortified stiletto, 2.4 speed (not 2.8 ), i've just check it (is usable as dw weapon).
i am very fast, a lot, on combo 44thrust

p.p.s.
when i was fresh thid at 4l2 some times ago, i had your same spec, slash based, and found it horrible.

p.p.p.s.
the grp u play with mean a lot. as i played mainly on pug's, i really had not time to think about switch 2h, i always be on focus of guard, switch guard, try snare, and slam. really no times for play like u explaining.

p.p.p.p.s
btw i sux, all know it so prolly u'r right eheh

Of course Wyvernfang is s 27 second snare, but these are my reasons as to why I found it frustrating using. . .

44 Thrust Snare
- It's only 18 seconds when followed up from Slam
- You need to take into account that you, or someone might break the snare. It could take you ages to reapply both styles.
- Sometimes you need an immediate Snare, but can't due to needing to concentrate on landing that lousey chain
- You must worry about 2 Styles getting Evaded/Parried/Absorbed by Bladeturn (So basically your enemy must be stunned)
- Usually when guarding someone your guardee is still moving when you slam your enemy, when multiple enemies are there it's not viable to stay back trying to apply the Snare while your groupmate is still getting beat on by another tank.

Landing 2-Handed Snares
- Low Duration, but you need to reapply Snares all the time on tanks anyway
- Easier to Reapply on non-Stunned Targets
- 2-Handed Snares, as stated before Back+Side Snare chain = Almost like having an Anytime Snare.
- Only 1 Snare-Attempt to worry about to Apply Snare. Can adapt to enemy PBT by swinging with 1H (to absorb) then swapping to 2H for Snare
- Missing . . . honestly not a problem when using the 4.5 Speeder, which is about all I stick to in Group fights. Misses really arn't as common as I whined about in Thidranki since I addressed it with 38 composite Slash.

Just a little note, of course I'm going to keep the shield out when there are multiple tanks on 1 person. Your entire group should be adjusting to this.

Basically what I'm getting at as the clear difference, the 44 Thrust Snare is heavily reliant on Stun to be landed whereas the 2-Handed Snares are easier to apply on Non-Stunned Targets. I also have moderate damage dealt over time, over-extenders actually become hesitant to keep pushing and fall back in some cases because I dropped him to 55-60%ish, leaving them open for destruction if I call it.

Hi, my name is Fokk and I´m a "Full-Retard".

... i said:

realac0 wrote:...... p.p.p.s.
the grp u play with mean a lot. as i played mainly on pug's, i really had not time to think about switch 2h, i always be on focus of guard, switch guard, try snare, and slam. really no times for play like u explaining.

then u said:

_Oglop_ wrote: Just a little note, of course I'm going to keep the shield out when there are multiple tanks on 1 person. Your entire group should be adjusting to this.

i think the point is all here.

with a set grp where every one know what to do, good coordination on ts, prolly, your hybrid 2hand slash pally can be good.
on all other situations, a 44thrust pally is by far more "ready to go" and more easy to play (on raids too).

btw, even on perfect set grp, i'am not sure my 44thrust pally will be less efficient than your.

ofc i can be wrong , like i wrote up, all know i sux

HulkGris wrote:Need the best block rate to improve your guard.
50 shield
48 chants
29 slash
4 in 2H
Reste of point where you prefer :
- parry to be betteer in 1vs1
- more 2H for side snare just to show off
- more slash for damage (anyway, you will do more damage with shield style imo)

48 chants will give you 20% resist cold, the usual damage type of mage in other groups.

this one is good, you should try to max the chants, because you mostly will support the group with it
and 50 in shield only if you want brutalize, but i think its not neccesary
rest in slash

which race and starting stats are recommend for paladin?

saracen and starting points str/dex/qui

44 Thrust 42 Shield rest Chants.

If you got a good movement this is the spec you should pick.

-> Perma Guard (no weapon swapping -> availability of the 1min dd charge weapon on 2h slot if you dont template it)
-> Anytimer followup (easy to apply if you got some movement skills)
-> Long duration
-> Fastest swingspeed

Most stronger Hib groups will run 6sec BT and will make u cry on a 2h Pala, adding to the fact that BMs are naturally the hardest offtanks to apply a snare on. I think fastest 2h is 3.8 on Alb and its not a 16.5 dps one which leads to a swingspeed of ~1,8sec.

The only Pala i know that used 2h efficiently and was active more than a month or 2 was Waljakov and that was loooong time ago where minor things (which i still think it is since Pala gameplay depends on ALOT more than the decision what snare you choose to use) were easily forgiven due to the lower level of competetive gameplay. But as there is not much competetion this summer aswell it seems, just go try and figure it our by urself =)

Anyway most Palas just stick a target and hit 1 2 and then cry about the snare not applying because of bubble/evade/parry(if your hits get parried alot u should care about other things than the right spec tbh;))
Good movement is the key to apply snare to experienced offtanks.

Race doesnt really matter (avalonian has the highest quickness tho) I would go for Saracen again tho if id had the choice.

[R]Bloodwyne wrote:44 Thrust 42 Shield rest Chants.

If you got a good movement this is the spec you should pick.

-> Perma Guard (no weapon swapping -> availability of the 1min dd charge weapon on 2h slot if you dont template it)
-> Anytimer followup (easy to apply if you got some movement skills)
-> Long duration
-> Fastest swingspeed

Most stronger Hib groups will run 6sec BT and will make u cry on a 2h Pala, adding to the fact that BMs are naturally the hardest offtanks to apply a snare on. I think fastest 2h is 3.8 on Alb and its not a 16.5 dps one which leads to a swingspeed of ~1,8sec.

The only Pala i know that used 2h efficiently and was active more than a month or 2 was Waljakov and that was loooong time ago where minor things (which i still think it is since Pala gameplay depends on ALOT more than the decision what snare you choose to use) were easily forgiven due to the lower level of competetive gameplay. But as there is not much competetion this summer aswell it seems, just go try and figure it our by urself =)

Anyway most Palas just stick a target and hit 1 2 and then cry about the snare not applying because of bubble/evade/parry(if your hits get parried alot u should care about other things than the right spec tbh;))
Good movement is the key to apply snare to experienced offtanks.

Race doesnt really matter (avalonian has the highest quickness tho) I would go for Saracen again tho if id had the choice.

This!!!! I agree everything...

You will be first on target as avalonian from range

majky666 wrote:You will be first on target as avalonian from range

which is just fine, because the half-ogre body cabalist in your grp can easily heal you


no seriously...what's so bad about pala being first target? there's no better target for the defending grp to be picked ...most AF, always shield up, some pts in parry, not too few hp...great