Quik wrote:I LOVED classic DAoC the most.

I would still say certain things should be left out even though they might have been available at that time.

The staff needs to decide on Balance (yes balance is important or casuals will quit). A majority of players who are new(er) will have no idea how to get a buffing item of +75. Veterans will know exactly where to go to farm it immediately upon launch of its available. I'm not sure how you are encouraging new(er) players to stay on Uth 2.0 with this reasoning. Just remove buffing items completely of this caliber. Yep that is custom but for "fairness" you DO need to do a few custom things.

I hate it when someone says stay classic at ALL costs. Sorry but that's gonna really drive away a lot of players when they get frustrated. Lots of things from Classic would be better off changed to a degree. Somethings they are already adding (titles) and somethings they haven't said yet.

If the game is not kept balanced people are gonna play only the OP classes from classic and other classes will be very few. Veterans will destroy all new(er) players immediately upon launch and as long as the server stays up. I expect a Vet to win most RvR fights against me...what gets really tiring though is knowing that any player I attack might be so well geared with stuff I don't even remember existed to the point that I never drop them below 10% health. They will be so buffed with charges and have every resist right from the beginning. Yes a new(er) player has it available to them but there is a difference between available and reasonable.

If you removed ALL buff charges/pots from the game and simply only made them available through players playing a buffing class...that makes it fair across the board. If you make it so people can get buff pots/charge items then you make ti fair to all vets/elite players and you isolate the new(er) players from any chance at success.

I wish buff shears were removed also but that's a personal opinion.

Now the staff may or may not agree with the buffing solution but they certainly need to decide what to keep from Classic and what to change. yes the staff SHOULD change stuff that needed to be changed from Classic.

DAoC is not WoW.
There are caps and an all cap template is easy to get. Reads more like excuses and yeah vets will win most fights, but that's gonna happen in any setting either classic or custom it simple does not matter ^^
Zerging up is the solution, there is no rule forcing any casual into 8vs8 and if you wanna do 8vs8 you will have to learn from every loss like the vets did

RonELuvv wrote:
To be completely honest Jerrian, I love DAoC. It is hands down the best game I have every played and nothing else even comes close. The reason I care is multifaceted. Its more of a gray area of what players perceive and right and wrong mixed with whatever they can recall from live. This makes for lively debates, which I love having.

In answer to your statement about you don't think there will be another reset, I counter with the fact that I never seen an initial reset coming. I tend to agree with you, as I don't see another reset as being inevitable, but to say it won't happen is just burying your head in the sand.

The best way I can summarize this is the old saying of, "Measure twice and cut once," when carpenters are cutting boards up. If you are going to do something do it right so you only have to do it once. If the server is doing to restart I would prefer for all of you to have it done right so there is no chance of a reset.

Edit: @ Holsten- I see your and Svp's side of it and think either change would be fine. If you want to go with the "live-like" route on the S/C charges I would see no issue in that. It IS the way it was prior to SI. I was just saying that the only custom solution that made sense to me was removal of all the high end S/C charges since nobody could say older players had a "benefit" compared to newer players.
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Ok, I shortened your post a bit to reduce wall of text ,-). Uth 1.0 lasted how long? 10 years? I think that quite a huge amount of time and the server went well but at the end it wasn ´t and a break was necessary. We had this discussion long time ago and I was one of the initiators who said do a relaunch and start at zero, because in my opinion it was the only viable option to end this downcast of that server with a complete new beginning. You can ´t say it was fun playing with 200-300 players in primetime and I doubt this had become better again, even with the fall of Genesis. So for me it was clear that there will be a reset or a shutdown forever, why keep on serenading a dead horse?

I would like to see you play again for fun, if you don ´t want to, it is your decission.
I would never say there won ´t be another reset but the chances are very low in my opinion, because staff was even considering to shut down uthgard forever as Genesis appeared, so their motivation of doing rerolls over and over again is not given and I doubt there will be a reason anyway.
If Uth 2.0 lasts for another 10 years or 5 it ´s a good deal and I ´m pretty sure that the population will be so low until then, that the staff would prefer to close the server instead of doing another revamp. That ´s more realistic for me instead of another reset and even when,- I would not care anymore, because I ´ve played this game for years now and as I already said, everything ends someday. If that ´s your end I feel sorry, because I ´ll miss players like you and adianne in Hibernia for sure.

Anyway Uthgard will have a new look and I think it ´s worth to give it another try, because as you said it ´s one of the best games ever. So why waste your time starting other games that you break up even after a few months of playing? I ´ll spend some more time in daoc again, because I know what I get here and I ´m pretty sure to have at least another 2+ years of fun.

@ s/c charge discussion and custom fixes generally
It ´s pretty funny to see some of the players who are yelling for a pure classic server without custom content are complaining now about this topic for example because they are concerned. You ´ve to make your decission clear,- do you want a pure classic server without custom content or not? I say yes to some custom content, because some of the later patches/bugfixes were really necessary in my opinion.
When there ´s custom content in, because of input by some players, we will always have debates about game content and fairness and unfairness over and over again.
You should be fair to the whole matter and not only points where you are affected yourselves. And when there is a custom solution by staff cause of discussions,- you have to accept the decission like I had to do for example with the greykill-rps and no rps while dead conclusion. Everyone of us has to do some kind of admission when playing again on this shard, take it easy, we ´ll have a decent shard anyway no matter what the exact setting will look like, because Uthgard 1.0 was awesome too and so will Uth. 2.0.

Quik wrote:If you removed ALL buff charges/pots from the game and simply only made them available through players playing a buffing class...that makes it fair across the board. If you make it so people can get buff pots/charge items then you make ti fair to all vets/elite players and you isolate the new(er) players from any chance at success.

Casual players are gonna give up on rvr whether there's buff potions or not. This idea of "oh if you just get rid of barrels, if you just get rid of tajendi, if you just get rid of charges, if you just get rid of SCing, then it'll be fair and we'll win!" ...is just a fantasy. As for "uber gear" that's one of the best things about DaoC: capped templates. It's not hard to get one and once you have one you have the same gear as everyone else. No overcaps, no artifacts to worry about, no new set of armor every 3 months, just hard-capped stats.

Buff charges and potions were clearly introduced by mythic for a reason. They put them in pretty early and never took them out even on classic servers. We'll never know their true intent on the str/con charge, whether they put thought into giving one realm a buff and not the other one. It could have just been an accidental oversight by mythic--one which they decided to remedy with Shrouded Isles.

Baman wrote:

Quik wrote:If you removed ALL buff charges/pots from the game and simply only made them available through players playing a buffing class...that makes it fair across the board. If you make it so people can get buff pots/charge items then you make ti fair to all vets/elite players and you isolate the new(er) players from any chance at success.

Casual players are gonna give up on rvr whether there's buff potions or not. This idea of "oh if you just get rid of barrels, if you just get rid of tajendi, if you just get rid of charges, if you just get rid of SCing, then it'll be fair and we'll win!" ...is just a fantasy. As for "uber gear" that's one of the best things about DaoC: capped templates. It's not hard to get one and once you have one you have the same gear as everyone else. No overcaps, no artifacts to worry about, no new set of armor every 3 months, just hard-capped stats.

Buff charges and potions were clearly introduced by mythic for a reason. They put them in pretty early and never took them out even on classic servers. We'll never know their true intent on the str/con charge, whether they put thought into giving one realm a buff and not the other one. It could have just been an accidental oversight by mythic--one which they decided to remedy with Shrouded Isles.

Again I am not talking about templates or capped gear or good uber items.

I hate seeing any items in the game (buff pots/charges)...even if they are only half as good...help to replace a class.

2 examples...

Yes I know shamans buffs are a lot better then pots/charges...my point is they shouldn't replace them at all. Get a buffing class in your group if you want buffs...not replace the class with pots because you couldn't find one.

Also scouts can use buff pots/charges to help counteract rangers using self buffs. A scout should NOT have any ability to replicate a rangers ability unless they get in naturally also. its part of what makes a ranger special and now a scout has a halfway similar ability to copy that.

IMHO...eliminating buff pots/charges simply puts everyone on equal footing. Having them makes the richer classes even THAT much more powerful above and beyond Templates. Eliminating pots/charges simply means you are gonna want to get a buffing class more then ever before. It means 2 stealthers run across each other then 1 doesn't automatically have a huge bonus from a +75 charge he dropped on himself. It means 2 soloers are ALWAYS on equal footing and all they need to do is template their gear which as you said is easy. By allowing them you just add an advantage to 1 player because he stocked up on pots or charge gear while the other may not.

No pots/charges means simple balance. Adding pots/charges just gives a bigger chance for imbalance.

Seriously what are the downsides to the game by not having pots/charges?

This is a very interesting debate and I tend to see valid reasoning on all sides of this issue.

1. You have to worry about balance since the patch settings state everyone should have 75 value s/c charges, but since SI will not be introduced at the opening this creates a possible imbalance.

2. You want to be live like. Live like at patch settings or live like in the fact that w/out SI Midgard should be the only realm with access to the S/C charge?

Then on top of all of this you have personal opinions that are influenced by what people want to play.

@ Quick- I have to agree with Baman on this one. There will always be at ANY patch settings OP classes and builds and those classes will be played by a majority no matter what. This is why in the past when everyone complained about rangers I laughed, because in Uthgard 2.0 it will be assassins that are the OP class. What you describe IS DAoC. The players that put in the extra time for farming that "uber" gear will be the ones who win most fights. Removal of all buff/charge items will not fix this problem. All you will see then is new players complaining that they have to still get the high end dragon items or DF items or item XYZ to compete and its "not fair."

This is just my opinion, but I personally think the only major item w/ charges that makes a big impact in RvR w/out SI is the 75 value S/C item. It makes a HUGE difference in solo and small man play. Just saying that no realm gets it until SI is introduced levels the playing field and when SI gets introduced everyone will have access to them at the same time. This to me seems the best solution for pleasing all sides. I won't even touch potions because it really does not matter. If you allow them then all classes get access to them which = fair. If you don't allow them then all classes are impaired by a lack of them which = fair. My only argument for them being in place is that at the patch setting they picked potions existed. So I go back to the "live-like" argument.

@ Jerrian- Trust me, I'm sure I will feel the urge to come back when it reopens, and maybe I should not come off so certain of never coming back. Who know's what the future will bring. I also agree that the chances of another reset will be very low, but I also believed the chances of an initial reset were very low, if not even zero. I certainly hope the reset goes well and I hope the best for the players and GM's, but mainly I'm just joining in on the discussion because even if I can't play it, I still love talking about DAoC.

Quik wrote: A scout should NOT have any ability to replicate a rangers ability unless they get in naturally also.

Well, that's just like your opinion, man. But apparently it wasn't mythic's opinion because they put the charges and potions in.

Baman wrote:

Quik wrote: A scout should NOT have any ability to replicate a rangers ability unless they get in naturally also.

Well, that's just like your opinion, man. But apparently it wasn't mythic's opinion because they put the charges and potions in.

????

Yeah that's why I put IMHO...

IMHO = in my humble opinion

I started the whole thing with saying this is my opinion.

And using that philosophy then buff bots are a great addition because mythic encouraged them =)

Sorry but just because mythic added something does not mean it was a good idea (ToA anyone?)

Quik wrote:
And using that philosophy then buff bots are a great addition because mythic encouraged them =)

They didn't have buffbots allowed on the classic servers but they did have buff charges and potions.

Fact is: 75 more str/con is the difference between winning a fight or losing it. You have a higher chance to hit, you have more HP, you deal more damage per hit. To be competitive in SOLO RVR you will have to have it. It's mandatory. You do not need to start playing or thinking about without.

On a totally unrelated side note: I'm already 'looking forward' to group play in PVE in the beginning. All those 'stealth chars' that will be looking for groups ... geez. This will be NO fun. Hope that I will not be the cleric in those groups, because of stealth classes have the lowest priority for heals, and a stealth char that gets damaged by a mob is playing it's class the wrong way and deserves to die until the player behind the char realizes how to play in PVE.

The smart stealthers will make a farm char first.

silenced wrote:Fact is: 75 more str/con is the difference between winning a fight or losing it. You have a higher chance to hit, you have more HP, you deal more damage per hit. To be competitive in SOLO RVR you will have to have it. It's mandatory. You do not need to start playing or thinking about without.

I completely agree. That's why I am saying take it out completely so NO one gets that advantage and everyone stays on semi equal footing.

It hurts NOTHING to remove it and it solves a lot of balance issues. To me the only ones that want this are the elitist players. Would just be nice to not have to build toward an elitist attitude to have fun.

What class are you planning to play quik?

Baman wrote:

Quik wrote:
And using that philosophy then buff bots are a great addition because mythic encouraged them =)

They didn't have buffbots allowed on the classic servers but they did have buff charges and potions.

Buffbots were allowed on classic too. Only a buffrange was implemented.

Simplest solutuion: Dont´t be a onemanarmyihateotherpeopleandqqaboutbuffs guy and play in a group. Or play a supportclass.

Not positive. I am still debating between Mid and Hib.

Mid - Zerker and Runie to start and see which I stay with.

Hib - Champion (if they get Det) and Eld and see which I stay with.

Those to start depending on which realm I start in.

I love Midland but I hate people screaming that the only reason mids win is because of numbers. Even when its similar numbers they still scream mid only wins because everyone plays that realm.

I like Hib also its just that no matter where I play Hib is always seems to be filled with more elite type players what only want elite type players in the group. If Uth 2.0 is different I would go Hibland hands down every time.

Quik wrote:

silenced wrote:Fact is: 75 more str/con is the difference between winning a fight or losing it. You have a higher chance to hit, you have more HP, you deal more damage per hit. To be competitive in SOLO RVR you will have to have it. It's mandatory. You do not need to start playing or thinking about without.

I completely agree. That's why I am saying take it out completely so NO one gets that advantage and everyone stays on semi equal footing.

It hurts NOTHING to remove it and it solves a lot of balance issues. To me the only ones that want this are the elitist players. Would just be nice to not have to build toward an elitist attitude to have fun.

It would hurt midgard which wouldn't have any charge to increase their melee damage, where alb/hib will have d/q charges which will increase damage on some of their weapon types.