Celteen wrote:Who cares about stealthers? Daoc is the wrong Game for you anyway.

As you can see from my sig I play visi and stealth and during low population time when there are ~180 people total on uthgard stealth can be the only game in town when emain is empty of groups.

Plus stealth has always been a part of DAOC so I don't see how you can say this is the wrong game.

svperstar wrote:

Panzer wrote:What it means for me (as a Hunter) with very little time at my disposal, that soloing is gone. Period. I know most of you dont give a crap about that, but for me and many others who enjoy Hunters and dont have the time to stealthzerg (thats right ppl, stealthzergs will grow even BIGGER) that the casual fun is over.

Have I grasped this correctly? Or will this be tweaked in ANY way?

Hey Panzer I want to point something out to you. Welcome to what every Assassin on uth has had to deal with since launch except at the very least archers have camo to counter See Hidden where as Assassins get nothing to counter MOS.

Why do you think there are so many high rr rangers compared to Infs? When I talk to other Infs who have quit they say the EXACT same thing you just said "It isn't fun to play Inf in emain, I buff up, go out and get some archer hitting me from ridiculous range and I don't get IP. It sucks."

Uthgard staff has never moved to nerf MOS on archers so why should they nerf See Hidden on Assassins?

I play SB as well, and agree, its hard as hell vs the never ending stream of Rangers. Kill one and what do you know, there is the next one. But I enjoy Hunter, can play it casual. Those days will be gone.

The reason they would remove See Hidden is that is passive. And it gives the Assasin imho a very OP tool. Ofc MoS is powerful as hell, but that will be gone. And See Hidden is in. Balance reversed. Thats not the way to go. Balance should be - No MoS, No See Hidden. I can discuss this 4ever, but my main reason to even bother to type this due to frustration. Getting my favourite toon (I have 5 other 50's, all visible) nerfed into Inf-fodder ( i think Inf is the winner here) is not very pleasant.

And I agree, Celteen must think this some other game, maybe World of Horsecraft? Stealthers have been here from the start.

svperstar wrote:

Force wrote:Whats your source for that? I recall original see hidden as being rather ridiculous, and the post nerf see hidden as being something like 800 units when I tested it. That would be like mos6+ or something.

You are correct. The original See Hidden was pretty ridiculous. Again this is memory and I have no proof but people posted screenshots on the vnboards of See Hidden when it was released and it was almost clipping range. People went ballistic. Archers quit en mass. Eventually it was nerfed but that was after my time.

Zack is hoping that is what See Hidden is like and he is very wrong.

So I did a bit of googling to see if I could find any old sources.

From May 2002 when See Hidden was first on Pendragon (obviously before any kind of nerf) we have this quote;

"Ok, I went to Pendragon with Przn (48 scout with 51 in stealth). I have 52 in stealth and am level 50 .. anyway, on to the pictures:

http://home.socal.rr.com/bartleys/seehidden.jpg
http://home.socal.rr.com/bartleys/seehidden2.jpg

I could see him at the very furthest possible. Even when he left the clip plane he still remained on target

Which basically confirms that the original See Hidden was absolutely ridiculous. Even if they toned it down before it went live, it was insane.

Then we have from May 2003, the Shadowblade team lead who did testing with the "nerfed" version of See Hidden

Bog DAOC Shadowblade Teamlead wrote:I'm still collecting data but by extrapolation at this point, an archer with 50 effective stealth would be detected around 800 units when non-camo'd. When you start comparing the range to what you would detect them at anyway, see hidden starts to look really poor vs a decent stealth target.

-Bog
-----signature-----

DAOC Shadowblade Teamlead

He says 800 units as well, which is what I remember testing it at. Seems pretty powerful even after the nerf I find it funny that he is complaining that it is "really poor", but I guess when you're used to seeing them at clip range your perspective is different.

An interesting quote from the same forum claims that once you've detected an enemy stealther with see hidden they have to unstealth and restealth or you will be able to see through their stealth until they go out of clipping range

- Once an archer/minstrel is uncovered with See Hidden, they remain visible in shadow form until they clear the clipping plane of the assassin that uncovered her. According to one dev I mentioned this to, this is by design. If you unstealth and restealth, you are not visible in shadow form if you are outside their detection radius.

So it seems likely that even post nerf you could use see hidden to see archers at clip range, as long as you detected them initially without them leaving your detection range (at 800 units there about) to unstealth/restealth.

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/devs-see-hidden-must-be-toned-down-or-removed-before-its-added.250714890/page-6

http://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/see-hidden-nerf.124850/

IIRC, new camouflage negated (and still does here) MOS of just everyone, reducing it at stealth level VS enemy level.
But the old camouflage (when it got in the game) was negating SEE HIDDEN, and not DETECT HIDDEN.

So, basically, if i'm not wrong, archers will just work with the stealth level vs enemy level for spotting enemy stealths of each kind (besides the true sight 1min each 30 mins), which means that they will spot enemy archers, assassins and even minstrels with good stealth,only when they walk over them. Yeah, no more archers soloing.

Assassins will spot archers and minstrels at detect hidden + see hidden (if their camo is down), otherwise they will still retain the advantage of detect hidden. No more rangers jumping on assassins. And minstrels will be spotted at cap spotting range everytime.

And IIRC again, that was the reason for sword melee specced hunters. High evade (passives + ra), 32BC just for pet as 'damage add' and +1attacker, 50 composite stealth, 2handed sword 50spec (for the big hitting bonus which uthgard seems like still lacking it), IP, AoP, Mastery of Arms (self haste), Mastery of Pain, and not caring about stealthing up at all.
Moreover, to compensate the lack of utility of THAT period, they gave the disease proc and styles at the hunters pet (but i may be very wrong on this)

I started playing here on Uthgard 2-3 years ago (can't remember) with a great friend: KATBIRD (US Midgard Merlin), a really mighty melee huntress i met many times soloing in the frontiers, back in the days. And luckily i was of her same realm ^_^

Great News!

And don't let the whiners get to you, Old RAs will be a big step towards the old daoc we love.

Abydos wrote:

Sanni wrote:
Sorry, I wont play on uthgard anymore I think and most of my guild decided to move to origins so if the origin server is up ill play there. Too many changes that bring no fun for me

You...do know their patch limit is 1.62 right?

Maybe he Hope Old Ras there are different then here then haha, when SI arrives here it makes no Sense to play origins then ( or well there are just some smal changes between )

Glelle-Instagard wrote:Maybe he Hope Old Ras there are different then here then haha, when SI arrives here it makes no Sense to play origins then ( or well there are just some smal changes between )

Working defense penetration would be a pretty important difference.

Well yes, no clue why they dont work on that major problem ?

Maybe they are even working on it but i guess it could be difficult to find the right formula.

old RA - that's good news

Glelle-Instagard wrote:Maybe he Hope Old Ras there are different then here then haha, when SI arrives here it makes no Sense to play origins then ( or well there are just some smal changes between )

Origins feels much smoother and far less laggy. Tho this may be duo to only being a handful of people on there.

Glelle-Instagard wrote:

Abydos wrote:

Sanni wrote:
Sorry, I wont play on uthgard anymore I think and most of my guild decided to move to origins so if the origin server is up ill play there. Too many changes that bring no fun for me

You...do know their patch limit is 1.62 right?

Maybe he Hope Old Ras there are different then here then haha, when SI arrives here it makes no Sense to play origins then ( or well there are just some smal changes between )

Maybe she know that all start with 0 rps

Samaritu wrote:Maybe she know that all start with 0 rps

Yes, one of the things I like. : )
I will try origin then - if I dont like it, ill stop play, uthgard is no option

Glelle-Instagard wrote:Well yes, no clue why they dont work on that major problem ?

it will bring fun to the people, same with class fixing.

Sanni wrote:

Samaritu wrote:Maybe she know that all start with 0 rps

Yes, one of the things I like. : )
I will try origin then - if I dont like it, ill stop play, uthgard is no option

If you are a rvr player can be a good solution.

The true is that on uthgard 80% or more of players do only farm PvE or BGs.

I don't FLAME anymore gm's because it's easy to uderstand WHY they keep going in "the direction" to Nerf RvR and Improve PvE: cause it attract the major part of uthgard players pool. (just think how many ppl are happy to retemplate theirs toons)

With SI there will be even more PvE players, (and im afraid even lesser in rvr), so i don't think that origins will take away many players from uthgard.

About old ra really few ppl care about it...
who care about purge 30mins... in pve...

ps: this is not a QQ, is just the true.