Mid Imbalance = Low Uthgard Pop
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There's life in the old dog yet. wwg1wga
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Yep, noobs actually think they will do better(even though 2 fresh starts weren't enough so far) every time something is wiped, rebooted, or opened  . Once they reroll their 20th lvl 50 and see the first rr7 on the other server, they'll whine about imbalance there too . Anyway, pointless discussion...not enough time has passed. However, free shard history always repeats itself for more than a decade now and I don't see why it would be different now. Judging things based on a one week experience is also kinda dumb, give it a few months. But if Phoenix flops, don't come back here .It is what it is.
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I 100% agree. Time will tell, and not enough time has passed.
You can be damn sure I and others will not!  |
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dont worry about people coming back, no matter what other server booms or flops, but since you seem to know the exact motivation of every player, then maybe you can tell me where and why it went wrong? cause uthgard used to be the ****** and people love it, WITHOUT QoL and WITHOUT SI, so where and why did it go wrong? |
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It's very simple. Old RAs and this patch level are a part of the problem because they don't allow a huge diversity in 8v8 and solo warfare, but that's only a part of the problem. The main problem is that most people are simply not cut out for this game. They all start with tons of enthusiasm but very soon they get owned in RvR and then they look for excuses in high RRs or what not. It's very popular nowadays in the world, blaming everyone else for your inability to compete or enjoy something and asking for a higher authority to change the landscape of things so you could enjoy them, instead of you yourself putting in the work and being a part of the change. Also, it's funny because I've known many players who are not particularly good but they still enjoy their class and whatever they lack in reflexes and gaming skills in general, they compensate for with experience and trying to do the right thing, even if they do it a bit slower.
Like I've said numerous times, uthg1 even at its lowest had pretty decent RvR(8v8, solo, smallman, keep takes, zergs) because most people there just took the game for what it was. With the wipe we lost many of those guilds and players forever and even though some of them tried uth2 they just couldn't get into it. At this moment, 8v8 population on free shards is mostly composed of quasi elitists who will jump on any server that gives them instant action, even though it might be custom to the point it's not DAOC anymore, and casual players are mostly people who are just not good enough to compete and the worst part is that they don't want to learn, so instead of sticking to one class, putting in the time to get experience in RvR and asking more experienced players how to get better etc., they reroll their 15th lvl 50 and they whine on forums about high RRs. Fact of the matter is, uthgard1 had new RAs which make higher RRs even more powerful, but I joined in 2011. as a complete noob and many people I've met joined as late as late 2012. or mid 2013. and had no problems competing because they took the game for what it is. Also, we have a number of people whining about slow xp. I mean, it's an old school RPG and maybe it's not designed to get to lvl 50 solo by doing quests, but rather to allow you to learn your class a bit and meet people + create a community by xping and doing stuff together. I hear you though, I agree some QoL like 10 charge pots from the start, faster travels and eventually SI would be really, really nice...but even that wouldn't change the composition of the population and ultimately they'd quit anyway. It is what it is, best if everyone makes their own conclusion, as long as it's from real experience on all these servers and not just some lvl 30 whiner crying how xp is too slow. It is what it is.
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well its hard to make a point against that. you think we are gonna get a stable population back? |
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Valfar you have said loads but nothing really constuctive mostly its like you are noob or morons if you dont agree in a long long long post insulting all including the devs so plz go away! Ppl and noobs that like the server gets tired of im a know it all and talk for all nabs
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There is still an stable pop and bet there allways will be! no help to Valfar
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It depends. I think the stable population always is out there, too many DAOC addicts are around for that not to be the case. It's a constant ebb and flow, I'd say. Naturally, I'm theorizing but when I joined uthgard1, there were a lot of set groups around and high rr guilds + various pugs who were basically set groups. Some of these people played all year long, some few months a year etc. They were all beatable, even by relatively new groups. I mean, if someone plays constantly and some people come back after 9 months break, ofc they will be rusty but even without that "newer" groups which I was a part of had no problems to compete. So I guess we had a healthy mix of people who played a lot, newer players with enthusiasm and people who got their high rr back when uthgard was a great option because the server was free while DAOC itself was a relatively new game with a subscription, so ofc many people picked it. There was also a lot of solo players and most players respected them didn't just zerg them down. I don't see most of those people coming back because they lost all those years of effort invested in the server. Another reason is this server's setting. Old RAs are really bad and imbalanced and they kinda force you to run very specific setups in RvR. Solo game is also weird, with certain classes being overpowered and others needing high rr to be able to compete against equally skilled player of the OP class. Also, this keep/relic system is idiotic. I don't think it was good even back in the day, but now it just plain sucks because you'd literally need 2k players online at any time of the day in order for it to work. Relic/outpost bonuses are way too big and relics are taken too easily. Imo relic bonus should be maximum 15% if you own everything, so it's kind of a nice bonus and something worth taking(especially as a social event), but more a matter of prestige for role players and "for the realm" types, and not something game breaking. Outpost RvR bonuses should be removed completely and outposts should just give you faster xp. People also need to start learning to play such an old game and actually figure out the mechanics. I'll give you a good example. You remember the thread about a "bug exploit" with a few guys in the box at Alb strength relic? Well, a normal person would think something along the lines of: "Well ok, it appears to be only in strength relic keeps, it's the same for all the realms and if you do that stuff, any semi-intelligent players can shut you down immediately because you're basically caged inside. They can go in and out via the doors, you need to jump out and lose HP while guards are shooting you, so it's basically only an advantage if you're playing against complete idiots and lemmings and even then it's not much of an advantage because you're a sitting duck inside. Again, it's the same for all realms and it appears to be just the way old strength relic keeps were designed, and the game of DAOC is full of interesting and funny places where you can jump or hide anyway." And yes, a few people on that topic said something along those lines, but a lot of comments were posted by the uthgard version of a medieval lynch mob who had no clue what they were talking about and what the issue was, but had demanded for people to be banned because of this outrageous "exploit" which is not really an exploit. This of course translates to almost every area of the game. Some months ago a person in my alliance was commenting how Drastic had hit her with DDs while she was sitting. So I asked her what's the problem? He wants RPs, obviously. Then she said he did it during SoS and didn't lose speed(mind you, this woman has a rr6 char I think). I told her that's normal and that old SoS was like that and that it was broken because it was too overpowered since you didn't lose speed after hitting people. She said something along the lines: "yes it's broken, it's a bugged ability". I tried to explain to her that I didn't mean it was broken because it's not working properly on uthgard, but because the ability was too strong. Then I explained to her that old RA SoS and the new RA SoS are not the same ability and that SoS was reworked with the implementation of new RAs and that she can look up old youtube videos from the old RA era and clearly see people hitting people while SoS is up. Then her and Ripbro(they're in the same guild) the keep taking bot started insulting me and saying how I was an Alb spy and a lvl 9 noob(I was on my crafter). Naturally, I'm much better at hurling insults back so the discussion ended shortly after that .Bottom line is, server is full of such people and they love to throw stones and react to everything emotionally because they are not willing to listen or learn. They blame high rr, imbalance and so on. It's a mix of ego, willful ignorance and other things. Most of the crying comes from people who brag how they have been playing the game for 15 years straight and are not able to buff properly, never pan the camera, have never even tried to experience the game in a way that they fight roughly the same numbers and are either RP whores or people with 15 alts who never went out to the frontiers after being wiped once or twice. And as usual, they're the loudest. I joined the server in late 2011. after a 9 year break and I had to relearn the game. I asked around, started small raids with people I've grouped with while XPing and soon I was the main raid leader on Midgard. I did well over 700 successful dragon raids on uthg1 with a few failures which were due to massive LDs, and not lack of organization. I did the same on uthgard2, leading almost 200 raids. Nobody told me how to do it, I tested it with friends and through trial and error we got the mechanics figured out. Now, I had enough people to test it with because they trust me and we've known each other since uthg1(some I've met on uthg2). They all know I'm a man of my word and it took time to gain their trust, so it's not as though they fell from the sky. Previous "leaders" did raids with 65+ people in BG and basically did nothing, they just sat AFK in Skona until BG was full and didn't even bother to explain anything or organize the groups etc., yet they took salvage and all the flame wrought rings and belts + soulbinder's belts for themselves. That was quite early and nobody was really rich yet, they all made a lot of cash doing nothing. On top of that, they were too lazy to give stones to 50 people, so they gave out RAs in stacks of 5. I never take anything during my raids, nobody ever gets scammed, I put in a lot of work to organize everything and if I feel someone might be a weak link, I make sure to double check and if there is a language barrier, I have someone from their country explain to them exactly what to do and so on. Regulars and people who are with me on discord know what to do but if there is someone I'm uncertain of, I have one rule. I tell them to do exactly what I say when I say it during raid because if there is an LD or something else out of the ordinary I don't have time to explain to them why they need to do something. If they do exactly what I say and something bad happens, it's my fault and not theirs. So anyway, it took me years to make friends here, gain people's trust, test everything for myself and what did we have on forum? A damn lynch mob trying to present it as if though it's the same 24 people doing the raid all the time(in reality, it was a pool of well over a hundred people which grew over time) and how the raids should be public. I told them that they're free to test it all out and organize their raids etc., ofc they kept accusing me and preaching their commie crap how everything should be public because they feel it's the way things should work(with themselves investing zero effort, of course). Basically, it's a bunch of spoiled brats who want someone else to do all the work for them or in other words, people who want the entire environment to adapt to them, instead of them affecting the environment and shaping it. I've given countless free templates over the years, wrote guides, asked friends to write guides for people etc. and I've always had to deal with the same crap. I'm no saint and people can give me crap for preaching and insulting them, but nobody ever questioned my integrity and anyone who has ever grouped with me knows that. I'm sorry for the off topic rant, but I just wanted to paint a picture . We really need new RAs and the patch level we had on uth1, I think that would be a good start + eventually SI. We also need to fix these keep and relic bonuses because they're idiotic and give Alb and Hib strcon charges since they'll get them anyway with SI. We also need players who are willing to put in the work, learn and enjoy the game as they learn to speak out more, because as always the toxic minority is the loudest, and those are not just spoiled people but horrible players as well. When it comes to uthgard staff, I disagree strongly with some of their ideas and decisions but I'm grateful for their hard work. I think they'd be doing a better job if there weren't so much whining. The worst thing is that most of the whining comes from people who don't really have experience on free shards, are bad players and always have oversimplified theories how to fix problems, and those theories are never backed up by any arguments or even anecdotal evidence from experience, and are usually just short-term QoL type things which don't work long-term. The way these people whine and accuse everyone for their failure and inability to take DAOC for what it is, you'd think they're paying millions to play on Uthgard, and it's a free service provided by people who have sacrificed thousands of hours of their free time to make it happen and keep it up all these years. In general, it's very popular in today's world not to have a shred of gratitude for anything and just to demand everything because you feel it should be yours.People need to start learning how to play the game, focus on one class etc. If they think they won't have enough friends to play the game with, then join some random groups and make friends. Run 2-3 times a week and very soon you can be competitive. If more people did this and not just log after one wipe and blame the world, the frontiers would be more populated too. Instead, they react emotionally every time things don't work for them and then go full retard on forum. Trust me, literally countless times I've been in a strong group and we needed 1-2 people to run that day and the way we picked people to fill the group was not based on alliance or a guild, it was mostly that one group member said he had grouped with this person before and that the person could listen and learn. I know this sounds ridiculous, but many times it was someone saying: "yeah, I was in an xp group with this guy last week, he asked me how to buff properly and was alright when we xped". Sounds dumb, but someone asking how to buff is actually a sign of intelligence and of willingness to learn, as opposed to a moron who buffs only him and his friend with all the buffs he has and then says OOC. It's THAT easy to actually meet someone and find groups sometimes, but it takes some time and as with everything, you need to go through the trial and error process and ask around and show people you're willing to learn. Anyone can learn to play the game properly and many times it comes down to just trying to do the right thing, even though you're not the fastest at doing it. Most groups are beatable, many high RR players have not gotten those RRs with skill but with playing time and sticking to 1-2 chars. The only groups in history of this server that logged on for 2 hours a night and got 50-80k rps by obliterating everything(even on low RR) were Prime and BTL French setup. Team Ingo did similar things later but they needed realm ranks to own the frontiers in that way and they usually ran for 3-5 hours straight and even they were beatable, in spite of having some of the best players on the server there. Most groups are beatable and high RR often doesn't translate to skill. Hell, if people just went out to the frontiers they'd get plenty of fights against their RR/skill level, but it's easier to log after one wipe and cry about high RRs on forum. Again, sorry for the mini novel and the off topic stuff . People need to man up, be ready for compromises, take DAOC for what it is and do the work. Then they'll start enjoying it. With the mentality most people have, even an endless amount of reboots and wipes will never change things, it will just be groundhog day over and over because they will always get owned.Edit: I often rant to Blue and other GMs and I'm trying to make them do some changes(if they had listened to me in 2014. we wouldn't be where we are today, but that's another story), this is a short list I sent to GMs in one of my rants, so that's your answer...I think these things would be a good start. - implementing new RAs and the rams we had on uth1 - making relics harder to take, make them give less bonuses and remove any rvr damage bonus from owned outposts all together - implementing non-tradeable reskins which can only be bought for bounty points, in other words you need to kill players to get them(don't make them easily accessible but give people something to play for, even zergs will come out to fight with potential reskins...you can make it so you can get your first reskin for the same amount of bounty points you would get if you only fought players till say rr6, next one equivalent of rr8, next 10 etc.) It's an old game so give people something to play for, and they will still not be easily earned and relatively rare, unlike on Phoenix where they're normal so they lose all the "magic" they have. - allowing people past rr11 to actually spend those points, getting even one point at that rr is super hard and it will hardly change anything, but it will give them something to play for - re-implementation of player/guard kill tasks(it will be especially beneficial for NA players because often they can get no inc during those hours, so at least allow them to get some RPS that way so on weekends they can actually enjoy rvr...otherwise it will take them many weeks to get to any decent RR) - implement strcon charges for Alb/Hib - reduce the realm switch timer to 20 or 30 minutes so people who have characters on other realms can switch the same evening if their realm is crowded and there is no action. This worked fine on uthgard1 and please don't use the "spying" argument...with discord and smartphones anyone who really wants to "spy" on someone will do so anyway, it's not rocket science It is what it is.
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I would still play here, i just cant login because of this microsoft mail account problem....
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I skim read most of your epic novel post but I got the general idea. I agree on some points and think you are being a bit of a "Valfar knows best" (but ultimately missed the mark) twit in other places. However on your changes... - New RAs. I agree some of the old RAs are stupid and very OP - some have crazy timers. However, the new RA set was not entirely great either. If changes were to come here, I think each one should be looked at and my worry here would be straying into Phoenix tweaky tweaky territory. - Rams - I can't remember old rams on Uthgard v1. In the very least I'd like it so it's not possible for people to place them sideways against a wall rather than actually facing the door they are ramming. This is just stupid. Also 3 rams on one door is crazy. - Relic Doors - Make them harder to take - fine BUT also implement some autorepair for empty relics after a time. See my post: https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=47638 - Relics/Keep bonuses - I've made a post about what they could do with these. I think Dmg bonuses should be reduced drastically for sure but perhaps a level of dmg bonus can be given to a struggling realm if one realm is massively dominating. I can't remember all my proposed changes so click here: https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=47638 - Reskins fine - offer multiple ways to get them including very very low chance of frontier 50 mobs dropping them too. This means epic/boss mobs could maybe drop a bunch pretty much guaranteed each time but it would be possible to get one if you are solo player doing your farm to rvr duties too. - RR11 abilities - well this is fixing a problem for 0.1% of the population but I guess this makes sense all the same. Very low priority change tho. - Player/Guard tasks - yep. This gets players in the frontier. The reward should reduce higher rank but it means targets in the frontier for people that want to RvR and a constant (even if slow) flow of targets/victims. - Str/Con Charges for Hib/Alb - yep and make them as easy to get as on Mid too. - Realm switch timer - should not be reduced to 20/30 minutes. It's just a plain bad idea. Yes people can spy and cheat via discord and non-daoc options already but making it easier in game too is not the way to go and the logic is not there. Also any value in realm pride/honour by swapping sides will be completely degraded. - Inqy/Spymistress/Sly -
GM of "eXPedient demise" | Slave of "Crows of Winter" |
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Well, the rams we had required 6-8 people to do full damage per swing(everyone needed to click each round), depending on the size of the ram. This makes it impossible for 1 guy to do full damage while others watch for inc or are swinging and therefore makes keep taking longer/more dangerous. As for new RAs, I would not be afraid of going into "the other server mode". On uthgard we had the good new RAs, which had only 5 levels on stuff like aug dex, determination etc., while the other server has 9. I think end value is the same but the uthgard system was way better imo. The other server is also mixing old and new RAs, which is just idiotic. For example, they have mastery of arts which we didn't have, and there are no prerequisites there for that. They also have MCL that costs 3 points, and it was 5 on uthgard1. So their MCL is a mix of old and new RA. Old RA mcl lvl 1 = 3 points, 5 min re-use. New RA mcl = 5 points, 3 min re-use. They have it at 3 points - 3 min re-use, idiotic. They also don't have RR5 abilities or charge. Now, the myth of charge tanks was very strong on uthgard1, but ultimately THE most devastating and strongest groups were pure caster groups, followed by hybrid groups. Charge 3 tanks need 7L5 just for det5, charge3 and lw1 if I remember right. You have PD on casters, you have DI, each realm has SoS and semi-decent caster groups were indeed very strong. Now, our patch level with buff shears, better values on hunter/ranger dexqui buff and other things like fast heals + new RAs allowed for a much more interesting RvR climate. People ran all variety of setups, many strongest Albion groups did not run a minstrel at all and Prime who was the best Mid group by a longshot did not run a skald, and skald offers a lot of utility with new RAs. With old RAs you're basically forced to run a skald because of speed, and the class itself offers little utility and against really good opponents it's basically severely gimped most of the time and is only useful when 30 min purge is up. Solo game was also way better and many more different classes were out there, while here we mostly have minstrels, skalds and assassins with maybe a few tanks. Hunter/ranger do get some nice abilities on high RR and yes, those prerequisites do help somewhat but the fact that you literally need rr7+ to get basic stuff like purge, IP, AP is ridiculous and assassins still own you. The whole thing about assassins being superior in both melee and detecting is utterly ridiculous, mos4-5 rangers/hunters were super fun and not overpowered or anything. As for the realm switch timer, I see what you're saying but ultimately it's always the same people who cheat and they'll always try it, no matter the restrictions. As for realm pride, I hear you again and while I do know many people who are role players by nature, at least on Mid most of them had no problems logging on every night, taking some keeps, doing some zerg fights and they kept showing up. We've lost many of those guilds forever, mostly German casual/family guilds who didn't care about RPS. My experience with most "for the realm" type people is negative. I'll give you an example of a conversation I've had dozens of times on uthgard1. I'll exaggerate it a bit but I assure you it did get to this radical point many times as well. Alliance chat: Person X: COME ON, WAKE UP MIDGARD, WE NEED TO RETAKE OUR KEEPS. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE NOT RETAKING THEM, WE'LL LOSE THE RELICS. LOOK HOW MANY OF YOU ARE ONLINE BLA BLA BLA. Me: Well you know, this game offers freedom to everyone. It's nice to take keeps and to have the relics but ultimately you can't order people around and tell them how to play the game. Some people like 8v8, some like solo and most of them do join when there is a real realm event and many of them just avoid zerging and keep taking because it's chaos and people never listen to the BG leader. Also, you're asking people to mobilize and go retake every keep around 14:30 CET, most people are at work or just came home, and the US population either just woke up or are at work already as well. The majority of people you see online now are semi afk crafting from work or farming a bit so they don't have to during best hours for RvR. Person X: PEOPLE ARE LIKE YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, YOU DON'T WANT TO HELP AND JUST PLAY FOR YOURSELF, I SPENT 4 PLAT YESTERDAY TO REPAIR RELIC DOORS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO HELP THE REALM? Me: If nobody asked you and if you freely gave those 4p to a person or spent them to repair the relic doors, you have no right to complain, it was your choice to spend them that way. I've given out countless templates, crafted for people at mats cost or at my loss just so they could get their first lvl 50 templated, I wrote guides and organized well over a 1000 raids(if we count legion, dragon, full SH runs etc.) with like 99.9% success rate where nobody got scammed and I always did the majority of the work and never took anything for myself and rolled on items like everyone else. Also, I'm pretty active in RvR and I do join zerg events when I think a decent leader is organizing stuff. I also don't preach to people and tell them how to play, if someone just logs on to craft and socialize a bit, I respect that and have no problem with it unless they're preaching to me. Not everyone is obsessed with relics, keeps and realm pride, some people just like the challenge of fighting roughly the same numbers and that should be respected as well. Person X: YOU'RE AN X-REALMING SPY, THIS SERVER IS ****** BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU. That's basically how it went almost every time, it is what it is. Anyway, even with all the things implemented, as long as any competition server is out, I don't see Uthgard thriving. Rotla, Rare, Nightwatch, Prime, BTL, Team Ingo, Malice, Requiem, Morrigan's breath, Rinnegati, EDN, Realm Joint, BIT, Sign, ITALICVS, Ruin/Anguish pug(played all 3 realms as well) and some other 8v8 guilds/pugs, including my guild which I've rebuilt to the point where we had 10 active players and we mostly made pugs with Team America and some other guilds are either gone forever or they have like 1-2 active players per guild. Not to mention guilds like Draghi del nord, Frenchs connection, Blutrausch(which had some very decent players but lots of casuals too) and half of the old DG alliance, many family guilds who really didn't care about RPS and were just zerging and keep taking and never complained about getting owned + a myriad of solo players who just can't play their classes with old RAs and have fun are people who are gone as well. We're literally talking about 250ish active RvR players here, and no matter the skill level or style of play, the vast majority of these people didn't cry on forum all the time and just took the game for what it is. We've lost too many good people and we have Romulites, Hasbultards, Ripbros and similar vermin. Can't be helped .It is what it is.
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Old RAs are fine
New RAs were desgined for TOA / MLs / New Frontiers Classic Server setting -> Classic RAs wwg1wga
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dont get into the whine part Rem
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Did you play on Uthgard 1.0? |
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