Pros? Cons? Where does each shine and what does it take to make them an all-star at their class?

My opinions:
Survivability: Hero>BM
Damage (burst): Hero>BM - due to spike of 2 hand vs duel wield
Damage (long-term): BM>Hero
Peeling: Hero=BM? BM has easy back snare in CD, while Hero has frontal in LW or back snare in CS and side snare in blades, both slam of course

This is in terms of RvR of course, PvE is fairly straight-forward, while RvR the lines can blur depending on the setup in which they are being ran in.

I am curious as to people's opinions. I am currently in the process of transitioning from BM to Hero, and while they fill a similar roll it isn't exactly a copy and paste kind of mindset so I am wondering what other people think.

One thing I am aware that I need to get the hang of is guard swapping, and I was wondering what experienced guard tanks do to make this happen? Do you create a macro for all the vital targets in your group, or do you just click on the name in group monitor and guard/intercept when applicable?

I think bms have a dps advantage if you think you'll be fighting a lot of 6s pbt. otherwise they're pretty interchangeable in 1.65 imo. similar reliance on positionals but iirc hero is a bit more forgiving.

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Falken wrote:Pros? Cons? Where does each shine and what does it take to make them an all-star at their class?

Survivability: Hero>BM
Damage (burst): Hero>BM
Damage (long-term): BM>Hero
Peeling: Hero=BM? BM has easy back snare in CD, while Hero has frontal in LW or back snare in CS and side snare in blades, both slam of course

This is in terms of RvR of course, PvE is fairly straight-forward, while RvR the lines can blur depending on the setup in which they are being ran in.

I am curious as to people's opinions. I am currently in the process of transitioning from BM to Hero, and while they fill a similar roll it isn't exactly a copy and paste kind of mindset so I am wondering what other people think.

One thing I am aware that I need to get the hang of is guard swapping, and I was wondering what experienced guard tanks do to make this happen? Do you create a macro for all the vital targets in your group, or do you just click on the name in group monitor and guard/intercept when applicable?

When I played with Vanquish on uth1, our hero Psalms would make us rebuild the group in his specific order. It would always have to be bard slot 1, druids slots 2 and 3 then whichever order he preferred depending on the setup. He was a very decent def tank.

BM who likes to switch shields is better most of the time, what you didn't mention is BM has:

+ insta-dd flurry
+ triple-wield anti-crit and dps boost

therefore:

Damage (burst): BM>Hero or BM=Hero imo

but a Hero who is able to take some aggro sometimes, like debuff-nuke or overextended vs tanktrain will have more survivability, with

+ elk-mode
+ scale armor

Zubasa2016 wrote:BM who likes to switch shields is better most of the time, what you didn't mention is BM has:

+ insta-dd flurry
+ triple-wield anti-crit and dps boost

therefore:

Damage (burst): BM>Hero or BM=Hero imo

but a Hero who is able to take some aggro sometimes, like debuff-nuke or overextended vs tanktrain will have more survivability, with

+ elk-mode
+ scale armor

Thanks for responding, I didn't forget about flurry/triple wield but long CDs are hardly reliable, but still should be considered. What did you mean by "+ triple-wield anti-crit and dps boost" the anti-crit part here?

My only reasoning for considering Hero more bursty is the fact of using a 2 hander, sure in a 30 sec snapshot the BM might be doing more damage, but good peelers will wait until its up before they peel, on the other hand good BMs will wait until CC immune to pop it.

Falken wrote:but long CDs are hardly reliable, but still should be considered.

Timers should be ready every fight (something like 7min/2min if I remember correctly)

Falken wrote:What did you mean by "+ triple-wield anti-crit and dps boost" the anti-crit part here?

The triple wield stops melee crits against the bm afaik.

edit: googled a source: "Unique to Blademasters, this is a magical third blade that increases the Blademaster’s damage by 15% and accuracy by 10% in addition to its critical hits negation and damage add. It is on a 7-minute reuse timer. The damage component of this ability will not stack with Banespike. " http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Triple_Wield

Falken wrote:Hero more bursty is the fact of using a 2 hander, sure in a 30 sec snapshot the BM might be doing more damage

I tested Hero/BM (both firbi, same equip, rr, 50+15 spec etc) earlier today, the bm does more damage in 10 seconds which is only like 3 swings for a hero (if he gets lucky and target has no bubble). But my tests could be off, I didn't try it 1000+ times.

Anyway, play what you can play better and enjoy more, after all it's a game and you need to be comfortable to have the most fun.

I d take a BM, offensive they are the better choice due to more DPS and dual wield. Defensive i d take 2x prevent flight chance over better guarding abilities.

My PoV from my own experience :
(I am gonna roll a hero)

- If you want put down target, do damage, make a BM.
- If you want play around your guard, support your mate and have decent burst, do hero.

About damage :
BM > Hero.
Against decent rvr group, don't expect kill a lot alone with your annihilation (probably around ~300dmg..). If you have any healer bit free it's not too difficult to handle the linear damage from a hero. What is interesting is to be able to assist your bm/eld on a target already initiated. Using the burst as something "surprise".
Assist bm+hero is viable but if it's for play offensive I would rather chose bm+bm.

About peeling :
BM>Hero.
BM has PF(with dual) + back snare (<which do decent damage) + stun.
Hero with 6 CS, you will need switch weapon manually to make a back snare (<which will be ****** dmg with 6CS spe)..
Snare from front ? let's be realistic this is not convenient at all (80% of your target will run after your group-mate)
Side snare ? BM can do it too.

So what a hero can do better ?
First, you are better for guarding/break an assist tank. You can use large shield, so let's switch if you see your mate get full assist on him. BM can't do it as good. This is for me the most important reason why choosing a hero compare to bm. Everyone has his work to do and his speciality. I like to just break an assist ennemy and make them split all the time.
Secondly, in case you are against caster group, you can be the one in front and push with more confidence (use your deer if needed). You have scale + more hp aswell than a BM.
Third, for solo a bit I would also rather choose a hero.

About the guard, I just qbind the guard on a easy access button, just clic on the target who need from game/group.
The timing is quiet important, that's make the difference between a good guard bot and a normal one.
Your eyes need to follow their assist to be able to switch guard and be next to your mate quick. This is kind of prevent healing.
I would say all the groupe members are important, if your bm get the tank assist you need to be able to guard him too... coz the healers can't handle dmg of 3 troll.


After all, between BM and hero, it's depend what kind of gameplay you have in mind.

Important to mention is the duration of the hero's frontal assault snare as compared to the Celtic dual back snare. If by peel you mean that your BM sits on a zerker who is chasing your caster, you will snare him alright. But slaming targets and applying a snare style to them looks different for the two: assume you apply the snare 2 seconds after you land the slam, so 7 seconds of stun remain: 12 second base duration for BM mean the target will be snared for 5 seconds after that, 19 seconds base duration for hero means 12 sec snare after slam. Being the only peeling tank in a caster group, the hero might be the better choice.

Also, you can sit next to the person you guard, blocking 3 targets as opposed to 2, you have other casters on your team or a blademaster hit the berserker who is after your charge, and you give the berserker a nice whack in the back everytime you are ready to swing, without losing too much of your 2hand damage capabilities or your guard.

Damsjp wrote:My PoV from my own experience :
(I am gonna roll a hero)

- If you want put down target, do damage, make a BM.
- If you want play around your guard, support your mate and have decent burst, do hero.

About damage :
BM > Hero.
Against decent rvr group, don't expect kill a lot alone with your annihilation (probably around ~300dmg..). If you have any healer bit free it's not too difficult to handle the linear damage from a hero. What is interesting is to be able to assist your bm/eld on a target already initiated. Using the burst as something "surprise".
Assist bm+hero is viable but if it's for play offensive I would rather chose bm+bm.

About peeling :
BM>Hero.
BM has PF(with dual) + back snare (<which do decent damage) + stun.
Hero with 6 CS, you will need switch weapon manually to make a back snare (<which will be ****** dmg with 6CS spe)..
Snare from front ? let's be realistic this is not convenient at all (80% of your target will run after your group-mate)
Side snare ? BM can do it too.

So what a hero can do better ?
First, you are better for guarding/break an assist tank. You can use large shield, so let's switch if you see your mate get full assist on him. BM can't do it as good. This is for me the most important reason why choosing a hero compare to bm. Everyone has his work to do and his speciality. I like to just break an assist ennemy and make them split all the time.
Secondly, in case you are against caster group, you can be the one in front and push with more confidence (use your deer if needed). You have scale + more hp aswell than a BM.
Third, for solo a bit I would also rather choose a hero.

About the guard, I just qbind the guard on a easy access button, just clic on the target who need from game/group.
The timing is quiet important, that's make the difference between a good guard bot and a normal one.
Your eyes need to follow their assist to be able to switch guard and be next to your mate quick. This is kind of prevent healing.
I would say all the groupe members are important, if your bm get the tank assist you need to be able to guard him too... coz the healers can't handle dmg of 3 troll.


After all, between BM and hero, it's depend what kind of gameplay you have in mind.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond, I appreciate what you are saying it makes a lot of sense. What spec do you plan to play hero as? Weapon swapping in CS from LW sounds like a pain in the arse, so I was going to do 50 LW / 10 blades / 42 shield/ rest parry.

After doing some more video watching and reading I tend to agree that depending on the setup you are running will determine how you play the hero, but in general hero needs to be ready to swap into a defensive mindset as they have the tool set needed to actually help in that scenario outside of just peeling of course.

Falken wrote:so I was going to do 50 LW / 6 blades / 42 shield/ rest parry.

Rest parry? Really? Why? Do 50 LW 50 Shield rest Blades

Feuille wrote:

Falken wrote:so I was going to do 50 LW / 6 blades / 42 shield/ rest parry.

Rest parry? Really? Why? Do 50 LW 50 Shield rest Blades

Was a typo, meant 10 blades but I am sure your comment still stands.

Blades is purely for the side snare which may not even get used that often if I can frontal snare from LW which is typically going to be initiated by slam, anytime I actually want to do damage I will have my LW out for annihilation.

The way I see it is if not stun immune Slam > Frontal Assault and if stun immune than blades side snare is there for an easier snare. Extra points in blades aren't really necessary either way while parry might allow me some mitigation in both PvE and RvR should it ever come to that. That is my thought process anyways...

Falken wrote:What spec do you plan to play hero as? Weapon swapping in CS from LW sounds like a pain in the arse, so I was going to do 50 LW / 10 blades / 42 shield/ rest parry.

Please, in all honesty and for the sake of Hibernia, dont ditch on the backsnare from spear just out of convinience.. good luck strafing in side snares to running melees, who swing on your grp mates every time you fail in your attempt.

If switching REALLY is that big of a deal, go and spec spear in the first place. The pros of LW are the more practicable lv50 move and the dmg type slash, which has a bonus against of midgards offtanks and is atleast neutral to mercs/all albs. and yes, the 19 sec front snare can be usefull, if you can land it.

spear spec has more reliable peel options (which is your MAIN task in most hib grps as a hero, dont forget that please), even though the slow is kinda short. but most of the time, the enemy tanks wont be able to get stunned (imagine 3 tanks.. once you stun the 3rd, the first is probably just out again), so a back snare enables you to peel a target fast, and going to the next. you simply dont have the time for several attempts on getting a side snare landed.

TL;DR

LW+6 spear is probably the best spec, but if really dont want to switch, go spear!

Or just spec 42 shield, 10 blades, 50 LW, 38 Spear. Then if you cba to weapon swap, your spear damage is still decent yet you still keep the LW.


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Imo 50 Spear is way better than 50 lw.

Ppl tend to pick lw because of higher dmg from levi. Which makes you waste the important Stun that saves your casters or supports life when evrything else fails.

Furthermore if you peel with spear, you will still Deal decent dmg, and you can Spam this. This is Something that actually weakens the maybe overextended tank for a easy kill.

Also, you need to be flexible as peeler, so you need to be able to switch targets fast. Imagine you are hitting the svg with anihilation. Suddenly the zerk catches your eld and you need to move. So to keep the svg removed from the fight you need to snare him, Which makes another hit necessary. If you were just assjaming the svg with your spear, you would be free to help your eld and have 14s time until the svg needs attention again.